Need help identifying off flavor

I'm fairly certain I have had an infection, but not 100%. Here's the story, you tell me what you think I am experiencing.

I started by "brewing" an IPA. It was an all-grain kit with pre-made wort. Smelled good, fermented good (70*), kegged good.

A few weeks later, I made an oktoberfest. Same manu/kit, different brew. Smelled great, fermented good. Here's where the story changes; When I pulled a sample to check gravity it tasted like *crap*. Very similar to drinking beer from a starter but not "hot". I chalked it up to style/green beer and ignored it. 2 weeks later I kegged it. Same test, much less prominent. Time to let it age... Ok, 3 months have passed since kegging and my marzen still tastes like crap. And it's still cloudy.

Now back to the IPA. It started fine (wk4) but needed to age some. About 8 weeks in I started to notice that same taste. Just last week, I tried to pull a glass and could finish it. But it was still crystal clear w/ no visible sign on infection. Normal odor. The only oddness was the flavor and a tendancy for the head to "tear" like crackle paint. Anyway, I tried again this morning and it was cloudy. Smelled fine but tasted like crap. Time to open her up.

This morning I busted open the keg and dug in. No pellicle, no ropes, no head, nothing. One note, however, the keg did smell the same as the beer tastes. I poured it out into a bowl and got elbow deep into it. No slimy feeling, no strings, ropes. Perfectly normal outside a crappy tasting beer...

As for the taste, I have no idea how to describe it. Yeasty? Perhaps. Vegetable like? Maybe. Like starter beer? Yes. I'm not sure, but the marzen has tasted that way since the end of week one and it's not getting better with age.

With two unaffected kegs, and no typical sign of infection my LHBS suggested it may be a personal reaction to the yeast (the kits shared that). But that doesn't fit the progressive nature of the IPA's taste.

Anyone have any thoughts? I don't know whether to throw out all my brand new lines or to just not buy any kits from that manu again...

How many batches before this with out the off flavor?

Here's a couple resources you might be able to use to better describe the off flavors you have:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.6/flavorwheel.html
http://www.kroc.org/Links/TroubleshootingGuide.htm

More info about your sanitization process, kit ingredients, yeast type, specific fermentation temps & conditions would also help folks assist you.

brewt00l said:

How many batches before this with out the off flavor?

More info about your sanitization process, kit ingredients, yeast type, specific fermentation temps & conditions would also help folks assist you.

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Thanks, just these two. I'll go look. It's quite unlike anything I have tasted before except a starter liquid.

Ferm: Temp 64-72, glass carbuoy, airlock, dark. SoFC type chiller.

Sanitation: Hot soapy water, good hot rinse, soak in starSan. Put away dry, re-spray with star san prior to usage. All lines flushed with water, soaked in StarSan, hung to dry. About 70% of lines are newly replaced (age).
All work surfaces wiped clean, and misted with SS prior to working.

Brew location: outdoors.
Work area: Kitchen
Ferm area: basement.

Conditioning: Forced carb @ 12psi/40*F in dedicated fridge.

Kit: Brew House Beer Making Kits by RJ Spagnols (http://www.thebrewhouse.com/technical/index.htm)
Yeast: Unknown provided dry yeast.

Sounds like your sanitization & fermentation temps are covered.

If I follow correctly, these kits are no boil, pre-hopped wort that you just pour and pitch some unknown yeast into...ferment, package and enjoy? ...and their o-fest & IPA use the same yeast?

There is a little package you add to the wort at the start that corrects the ph of the wort as part of the kit. This MAY, and I do say, MAY be the cause of your problem. I have used two of these kits when I first started brewing but could get no decent beer from them.

Here is a good site by the BJCP to aid in the identification of off flavors, also tells you how to control the flavors in the beer.

http://www.hordsoffun.com/bjcp/vocab/

What about your water quality? Filtered? Chlorine?

boo boo said:

There is a little package you add to the wort at the start that corrects the ph of the wort as part of the kit. This MAY, and I do say, MAY be the cause of your problem. I have used two of these kits when I first started brewing but could get no decent beer from them.

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I tried them because the LHBS bragged about how surprisingly good the quality was from such a low brow process. I hadn't had time for a brew day in awhile, and I figured I'd give it run for $32ea.

The instructions were pretty clear that the beer would taste like s**t w/o the pH balancer, so I included it. Generally I followed the directions to the letter.

5 Is Not Enough said:

What about your water quality? Filtered? Chlorine?

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Carbon filtered (whole house). Tastes good (neutral) and it has not caused any problems thus far..

WOP31 said:

Here is a good site by the BJCP to aid in the identification of off flavors, also tells you how to control the flavors in the beer.

http://www.hordsoffun.com/bjcp/vocab/

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I've read 'em all and while I still cannot place the flavor, my mind keeps coming back to Brett. Wet dog or wet wool isn't quite right, but water from a roadside puddle seems about right. Neither is horse blanket or barnyard, but perhaps if you soaked a horse blanket in water and squeezed it out into a glass...

It's not in any way sour, nor does it have any abnormal mouthfeel, but I can't get down more than swallow or two...

pldoolittle said:

...just not buy any kits from that manu again...

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Just read this thread, and I think you've hit the nail on the head. I've never heard of "The Brew House", so I can only speak based on what I've read here and on their web site, but I would be suspect of the quality of their product.

There is a paucity of information on their site about what their product is-- they claim it's not extract, but unless you're buying 5 gallons of wort, it's basically just a pre-hopped concentrated extract kit.

Regardless, if the two brews you've made from this one manufacturer are bad, then I would say don't brew beers from that manufacturer! My suspicion is that the fault lies in poor quality ingredients and/or the pH balancer. I've never seen kits come with a pH balancer.

SavageSteve said:

Just read this thread, and I think you've hit the nail on the head. I've never heard of "The Brew House", so I can only speak based on what I've read here and on their web site, but I would be suspect of the quality of their product.

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I'm mixed. My LHBS is reputable and says that he's brewed 'em with good results. And, the wort looked and smelled just like you would expect.

On the other hand, I do have two kegs full of undrinkable beer.

SavageSteve said:

they claim it's not extract, but unless you're buying 5 gallons of wort, it's basically just a pre-hopped concentrated extract kit.

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Now that I do understand. It's not an extract. It's 3.5 gallons of high gravity AG wort that you top off with water. The technical difference is that it's not been boiled down/ evaporated like extract.

SavageSteve said:

I've never seen kits come with a pH balancer.

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Apparently the wort's pH is modified (raised) to prevent spoilage and must be lowered before use.

SavageSteve said:

Regardless, if the two brews you've made from this one manufacturer are bad, then I would say don't brew beers from that manufacturer! My suspicion is that the fault lies in poor quality ingredients and/or the pH balancer.

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I'm certainly not rushing down to get another. I did like the idea for a quick and easy 5'er for a party or BMC crowd.

I would suspect the kits as well....especially given the nature/description of the kits.

If you were to order a kit from a different supplier (NB/AHS/Midwest/BBB), my bet is that the off flavor would not be present.

Just a thought--you could take some of the beer into your LHBS and have the guy who recommended it try it. Maybe since he has made it before and knows what it's "supposed" to taste like he could help you figure out what's going on.

Then there is always the possibility that he'll think it's great and totally normal, at which point you can stop taking advice from said employee

I don't want to slam kits, but I've made two (from different origins/manufacturers) and they were both undrinkable. Everything else I've done has been good.

maltMonkey said:

Just a thought--you could take some of the beer into your LHBS and have the guy who recommended it try it. Maybe since he has made it before and knows what it's "supposed" to taste like he could help you figure out what's going on.

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I've been meaning to do that for some time now. Schedules just haven't worked out...

maltMonkey said:

Then there is always the possibility that he'll think it's great and totally normal, at which point you can stop taking advice from said employee

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I don't think that is possible. I've consumed every beer at Taco Mac and never had one I couldn't finish. Had a good many I didn't like, but all were tolerable. I can't get down 4oz of this crap...

Update: This has turned in to fabulous beer after 6 months of aging. If you can spare room in the fridge, don't dump a beer unless it's starting to grow leaves and flowers...

Philip1993 said:

Update: This has turned in to fabulous beer after 6 months of aging. If you can spare room in the fridge, don't dump a beer unless it's starting to grow leaves and flowers...

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i've made 3 brew house kits now. 2 IPAs and an Oktoberfest

both IPAs are delicious. the Oktoberfest is undrinkable after one month in the bottle. it tastes very bitter, or like a chemical or something. my brother says it tastes like nail polish remover, i think it tastes like rotten grapefruit..
same thing, it is cloudy and wont clear at all. very unpleasant. we even dry hopped with fresh hops, so this kit cost us about 80 bucks all together.
what a shame.

so should i put them in the fridge and wait 6 months? my brother wants to dump them all out. i almost agree, it's that bad.