Microbrew blues

Ok, so I went to our local microbrewery tonight. . .

I was completely shocked to find out that they do extract brew only (not that that's a bad thing), but I was expecting more. I felt let down....


and to make the matter worse, of the three beers I had, I felt I could do much better.

and there were only 10 people in the bar at 10 pm saturday night---which I also think is sad.


I'm torn---I want to support this guy, but at the same token, I think he could do better !??

the only saving grace was the fact that there were two hot blonde's at the bar that I'm pretty sure wanted me. (maybe it's the alcohol speaking).



Anyone ever been caught in this quandry??? (as far as supporting a brewery such as this. .. . .(not the blondes--- that's a separate issue).

Maybe you should take it over?

There's a micro very close to me and the guy that runs it is an award winning homebrewer. They only do kegs and bottles, no brew pub or restraunt. I've tried several of their beers, all from 22oz bottles bought at local stores. All have had some sort of problem with them. Sour, cardboard, etc. I want to blame it on poor handling by the store, but every time? Something's up. I might give them one more try.

This guy doesn't serve food, and seems to be open whenever he feels like it, and makes extract beer and claims to be a microbrew. His beer is ok, but come on. . . . I'm frankly surprised he's still in business. . . the only thing I can link it to is the fact he is right next door to a very successful pub/restaurant, and he gets their overflow.



I want to support his efforts, but it seems he isn't make much of one.

Does he have nice brewing facilities for large batches (40 to 160 gallons)?

Here's an idea. Take your best and most favorite brew to him, see if he likes it. If he does, offer to brew it as a guest brewer at his brewery if he buys the ingredients. Promote it among all your friends, get them to come drink it there. He might appreciate the increase in business, and decide to pay you to brew for him again. Before you know it, you could be the brewmaster while he runs the business. Or, he'll learn something from you (be subtle, don't flaunt your superiority) and improve his own brews.

Just a fantasy dream. But who know? It could happen.

I'm with beer4breakfast - pitch an idea to him. Ask him about his system and his thoughts on AG. I'm sure he has a reason for sticking to extract, but his profit margin would double or more with AG, so perhaps you could be the impetus for change there. Per beer4breakfast's advice, ya gotta be subtle about your suggestions and ideas. Best of luck! A brewmaster in the making?

Biermann said:

This guy doesn't serve food, and is only open whenever he feels like it, and makes EXTRACT beer and claims to be a microbrew. His beer is ok, but come on. . . . I'm frankly surprised he's still in business. . . the only think I can link it to is the fact he is right next door to a very successful pub/restaurant, and he gets their overflow.



I want to support his efforts, but it seems he isn't make much of one.

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Are you kidding me? Hey, Biermann, . . . let me know sometime when you want to go back to John Rhodell's. I will meet you there and introduce you to Mark, the brewer and owner at this establishment. I will show you around the facility and I think you will leave with a new appreciation for it.

Remember, this place is a BOP . . . which is different from a microbrewery. The business model focuses on being a place where folks can go and make their own beer with the help of a professional brewer. Most of the money made in the place comes from this side of the business. Obviously, doing AG batches would not be a good way ot run a BOP.

Rhodell's serves some of the best beers I have ever tasted. As for the whole extract/AG dilemma - a quick search around here will show how controversial that subject is.

Seriously, give Rhodell's another try . . . and keep in mind the point of the place - a Brew On Premise not a microbrewery or a brewpub . . . or even a restaurant, for that matter.

Biermann said:

. . . I'm frankly surprised he's still in business. . . the only think I can link it to is the fact he is right next door to a very successful pub/restaurant, and he gets their overflow.

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I am not sure how long you've been in the Peoria area, but Rhodell's has been around a lot longer than Kellerher's. If anything, Rhodell's created the market for Kelleher's.

AG doesn't always mean good beer, nor does quality equipment. There used to be another local brewpub, but you could blind taste his beers and not know what you were drinking. Had a great system, but no talent.

Thier was a place like that here (VA) called Hilltop Brewery. It was the only brewpub around and it was cool cuz they had bands thier but thier beer was horrible. Turns out they closed not too long ago. Im pretty sure they used extract. Infact I think more than a few breweries use extract which I found out when I was at my HBS and the owner told me they were out of dark liquid extract cuz some brewpub bought like a 50 gallon drum to make their stout with. I dont really like the idea of micros using extract. Especially when you can tell. And especially when they charge 5 bucks a pint...

Torben Ulrich said:

I dont really like the idea of micros using extract. Especially when you can tell. And especially when they charge 5 bucks a pint...

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But the place in question is not a micro . .. it is a brew on premise (BOP). If we want to talk about extract vs. AG, I think we should move it to another thread. The point I want to be clear in this thread is that there the establishment this thread is about is not a microbrewery. The place was set up to be a BOP, and that is the main focus of the business. It would be financial suicide for this brewer to switch to AG. His system is designed to brew one barrel batches of extract brews. Simple, effective, and he makes a great product and provides a great service which is making him a lot of money.

BTW, his audience is primarily non-hombrewers, as most of us would stop short of paying to brew on someone else's system.

I do have an interest in this thread, simply b/c I am a regular at this establishment. However, I also want to make sure that we are being fair to the establishment. To imply that this place should go AG demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of that particular business and its model.

Well, don't get me wrong, I like the concept, and I know its not really a "microbrewery," even though he has sold his beer to other establishments. . .

Last night, each beer I had was only "so so." His farmhouse (Belgian) ale was good, and I really liked it. His keltic red (one of my old favorites), was kind of bland last night. His Oregon wheat did not taste very wheaty (I know it wasn't supposed to be a Bavarian Hefe). All three of his beers had a similar taste (?yeast strain).

I have no problem with the extract BOP brewery--none at all--I've done plenty of extract beers, and have had plenty of extract beers, many of which you could never tell the difference--so my goal here is not to ding extract brewers, or spark a debate.

I went in to Rhodell's once to try and procure some of his beer, either in Growler form or 6 packs, (as he advertises when you walk into the place), and I met Mark--
He was frankly quite rude and short with me, and indicated he didn't sell such things any longer.

I like his place, to be sure, and I want to give him another chance, and I have had some pretty good beer from the place, but 2 of the three beers I had last night were only middle of the road, and I found it extremely sad that Kelleher's next door seemed be doing a good volume of business while Rhodell's only had 10 people in it (counting myself). So, my point here is that I want to support his establishment-- and I'm not discounting the owner's brew talent, as I have had very good beers from him, but it seems he could do more to increase his business and (last night his quality). I think just having some simple appetizers or something would help. He gives the illusion of not trying, IMO.

One thing for certain, he has quite a bit more talent than Elmwood's Brewer (most of their beer is mediocre), but I also try to support that business whenever possible. Elwood, btw, had been making improvement the last time I was there.

That's the background behind me being somewhat bummed out.

Yuri_Rage said:

I'm with beer4breakfast - pitch an idea to him. Ask him about his system and his thoughts on AG. I'm sure he has a reason for sticking to extract, but his profit margin would double or more with AG, so perhaps you could be the impetus for change there. Per beer4breakfast's advice, ya gotta be subtle about your suggestions and ideas. Best of luck! A brewmaster in the making?

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'

Well, looking at his system, I doubt he'd be interested in all grain process, and as sonvolt said, this establishment has been around for awhile. I had heard that he did extract beers, but I did not know until last night that is all he does. He does have a nice 8 kettle extract system set up.

I just think he could do better to promote his business. I have had his beer at other establishments (last night was the first time drinking at the brewpub), and some of his beer has been very good (his Darkstar comes to mind). Last night just did nothing for me.

And Sonvolt, I'd love to take you up on the opportunity to go back to Rhodell's and meet the owner (again). Maybe he was just having a bad day the last time I was there.

Biermann said:

I went in to Rhodell's once to try and procure some of his beer, either in Growler form or 6 packs, (as he advertises when you walk into the place), and I met Mark--
He was frankly quite rude and short with me, and indicated he didn't sell such things any longer.

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I was in there for a few hours last Wednesday. At least 30-40 growlers were filled and sent out the door with customers. He keeps growlers behind the bar to sell, so I am unsure why you were not able to buy one. Perhaps you brought in a growler with a different label on it, which, of course, is illegal to fill with a different beer (strange Illinois labeling law).

As for Mark - sometimes his Scottish accent and mannerisms come off as rude, but I assure you, he is a good guy!

As for promotion and growing his business - I wonder if this is a distinctly American instinct . . . ? I mean, why should we (patrons, citizens, and otherwise third-party people) give two $hits how big a particular business becomes? What if a business owner's goal is to own and operate a small-time, down-to-earth establishment w/o getting into the pressures of working with a distributor.

I remember talking with Mark about this on multiple occasions before he finally decided to start sending some barrels to Sully's (who has since stopped ordering, btw). Mark simply was not interested in sending his beer elsewhere. He did not want the headache of working with a distributor to ship his beer mere blocks away from the location where it is brewed. Further, he despises the idea of letting amateur distributor employees (mis)handle his product. For these reasons, and a lot of others, he has always been reluctant to push his beer through these avenues.

I have a lot of respect for any business owner who approaches his profession in this manner. Mark wants a homy, down-to-earth, brew-on-premise where people will come in for a friendly pint on occasion. He is not hip on huge, raucous late-night crowds - hence the empty Saturday nights. This business model is working very well for him, and I hope that he never goes down the road of a microbrewery . . . remember Crooked Waters?

Let me know when you want to have a pint, Biermann :rockin:

sonvolt said:

But the place in question is not a micro . .. it is a brew on premise (BOP). If we want to talk about extract vs. AG, I think we should move it to another thread. The point I want to be clear in this thread is that there the establishment this thread is about is not a microbrewery. The place was set up to be a BOP, and that is the main focus of the business. It would be financial suicide for this brewer to switch to AG. His system is designed to brew one barrel batches of extract brews. Simple, effective, and he makes a great product and provides a great service which is making him a lot of money.

BTW, his audience is primarily non-hombrewers, as most of us would stop short of paying to brew on someone else's system.

I do have an interest in this thread, simply b/c I am a regular at this establishment. However, I also want to make sure that we are being fair to the establishment. To imply that this place should go AG demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of that particular business and its model.

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I have some thoughts on the business model, but please understand that I am not maligning the owner or his methods, nor debating the merits of extract versus AG or mini-mashes, etc. These are just my thoughts about running such a business in general. And of course, all business decisions have to be analyzed under the particular market conditions that obtain in the area and financial realities...

If I had a BOP as my main business, but also had a license to dispense beer on premises and the space to do so I'd be looking to expand my business in any way that I could to take advantage of that. Just because the BOP part of the business currently drives the bottom line does not mean that it is the only thing I'd want to depend on for income. Diversification helps to guard against changes in law, fads, and business cycles that might affect my business, which is my livelihood. Selling beer AND food to the public definitely presents more opportunities.

Here are the ideas I'd evaluate to expand and diversify a small BOP business if I had one:

• Expand the pub side of the business by adding food items
  • Simple menu items that go good with beer (fried foods, burgers, chili, nachos)
  • Not labor intensive, easily spoiled, or need special techniques (pizza dough, salads, fru fru dishes)
  • Limit staff to two or three more employees (a couple of cooks and a kitchen helper/dishwasher)
  • Serve free snacks at the bar (nuts, chips, etc)
  • Sell growlers and refills
  • Ensure that my own beers were top quality, whatever it takes to do it
  • Stock some popular commercial brews (for the uneducated) and good microbrews (price my own a bit lower)
  • Add ESPN and a couple of TVs, overhead music for ambience when games are not on
• Expand the BOP potential by giving customers an upgrade path
  • Offer to brew my customer's beer using extract, extract plus steeping grains, mini-mash, or AG
  • Convert customer recipes for free and SELL the advantages of AG. I charge more for it while it has the lowest materials cost (but higher labor cost)
  • Tiered pricing based on selection of extract, plus grains, mini-mash, or AG
  • Extra options for small upcharge (liquid yeast, yeast fuel, whirlfloc, water salts and modifiers)
  • Add a quality AG setup (SABCO BrewMagic or a MoreBeer 20 gallon system) to use for my own brews and to upgrade the customer's brew
  • Rent time on the AG system to other brewers (assuming this is legal and reasonable for insurance)
  • Future possibility - If business really takes off and my beer sells, maybe go for a 5 bbl system one day. Woohoo!
• Promote business by community involvement
  • Sponsor a local beer club and have weekly meetings at my pub (1/2 price on all my own brews)
  • Help sponsor a community festival (Oktoberfest, Renaissance Fair, etc)
  • Host regular beer competitions, open to all but reduced entry price for BOP customers
  • Competition winners get to brew on my fancy AG setup. I sell their brew and pay a small commission. Potential to win their friends as new customers.
  • Conduct periodic "brew schools" for individuals (high priced, on demand) or groups (low price per person) on premises
• Retail HBS
  • Add full-scale HBS, especially if the area lacks one
  • Alternative - sell limited range of items that don't conflict with BOP business (e.g., bottles and cases, keg systems)
  • Become an authorized reseller for high end stuff that my AG rentals encourage, SABCO BrewMagic, or team up with a local welder to make/sell systems.

Not all ideas will work in all markets. If all of these ideas are "financial suicide" then then market is saturated or non-existent anyway. Perhaps it would be better to relocate to another area in that case. Some will require more capital investment than others, but may have higher ROI. Labor may or may not be available inexpensively in the area. Laws and liability may make some options less attractive than others. All has to be carefully evaluated. These are just some of the ideas that occurred to me. My real point is that a business is only as limited as the imagination and financial capabilities of the owner and the market potential that exists or can be created.

You want to support this establishment? Why? Just because he is a "micro"? Does he run a business or a charity? If you don't like his product then don't buy it. Plain and simple. Just because he runs a business that is near and dear to your heart doesn't mean he does it well. Don't waste your hard-earned money on a product that you don't feel is up to snuff. Either he'll go under, or he'll improve his product. Until then go elsewhere. Jeezus, I feel like Ann Slanders

ablrbrau is right, Biermann. Patronize or not, according to whether the business satisfies you. Your patronage isn't a charity either, is it? The business will survive or not and will expand or not based on the wishes and the ability and the effort of the proprietor. That's up to him. Your patronage is up to you. Personally, I'd rather compete with him if the market would support it. Judging from the sounds of it, I might be able to take the market for myself.

beer4breakfast said:

ablrbrau is right, Biermann. Patronize or not, according to whether the business satisfies you. Your patronage isn't a charity either, is it? The business will survive or not and will expand or not based on the wishes and the ability and the effort of the proprietor. That's up to him. Your patronage is up to you. Personally, I'd rather compete with him if the market would support it. Judging from the sounds of it, I might be able to take the market for myself.

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With or without Biermann, Rhodell's is doing just fine and will continue to do fine. They make great beer, have a great group of regular drinkers, a great group of regular brewers, and enough patrons of the BOP to keep all the kettles in pretty constant use. Even more, many bars in town are begging the owner to let his beer sell in their bars. They already are doing most of what beer4breakfast suggests, and are making a killing.

BTW, one of the reasons that Rhodell's does not serve food is because he allows groups to bring in their own food. This is one of the highlights of the place, and one thing that his regular customers love. A bunch of guys decide to brew a beer together, their wives make a bunch of snacks/etc, and they meet at Rhodell's for good food and good fun and great beer.

I find this thread humorous, and I should probably stop looking at it. This is one of my regular hangouts and it is difficult to see how you are all assuming that it is so bad based upon Biermann's few comments.

sonvolt said:

I find this thread humorous, and I should probably stop looking at it. This is one of my regular hangouts and it is difficult to see how you are all assuming that it is so bad based upon Biermann's few comments.

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For the record, my comments have nothing to do with such assumptions, sonvolt. I've never been there, so I can't say. I'm just stroking my business fantasy a little bit (feels good, too) based on a hypothetical, and otherwise commenting generally.

sonvolt said:

I find this thread humorous, and I should probably stop looking at it. This is one of my regular hangouts and it is difficult to see how you are all assuming that it is so bad based upon Biermann's few comments.

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Obviously I've never been there. I only said that if an individual is unhappy with a product or service, he/she should not spend their money there any longer. That applies with any business, whether or not said business is prospering.

My comments were more geared toward the fact that he does extract brews on a large scale. Apparently he also teaches extract brewing. Don't get me wrong, there is NOTHING wrong with extract brewing for the homebrewer.

However, it doesn't inspire confidence in a professional's brewing ability or knowledge when he scoffs all-grain brewing. I would think that he'd embrace the process and offer it up as a part of his BOP business like beer4breakfast mentioned.

Never been there, but I'm not sure I'd really have a reason to go - I don't want to BOP, I want to BAH (brew at home!). If I'm ever up that way, maybe I'll check it out and sample a bit just to satisfy curiosity. Speaking of curiosity, we're making a lot of assumptions - has anyone asked why he doesn't do AG?

My comments were more geared toward the fact that he does extract brews on a large scale.

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He doesn't do it on a large scale - small scale is the key word here. He does 1 barrel brews. Patrons leave with 5 cases of their creation.

However, it doesn't inspire confidence in a professional's brewing ability or knowledge when he scoffs all-grain brewing.

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He doesn't "scoff" all grain brewing, but supports it and even freely offers brewing advice to homebrewers. So, this has nothing to do with "confidence" in his brewing ability. I assure you that he knows his $hit.

I would think that he'd embrace the process and offer it up as a part of his BOP business like beer4breakfast mentioned.

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Why would you think this? First of all, that would require a major investment in terms of equipment and space. Secondly, he provides a service in which individuals or groups can come in for a 2 hour brew and then come back for a 2 hour bottling session. This is the idea. Doing this with AG or PM would require a patron to be at the bar for 5 hours or so. Let's be honest, the folks coming in to brew are not willing to invest an entire day to do so. This is an experience that is supposed to be fun . . . rather than tedious and in depth. This seems weird to us homebrewers, but remember that patrons of a BOP are using that service b/c they are not homebrews.

One more thing - this is not simple dump and stir extract brewing. Patrons crush their steeping grains, monitor the steep and the boil, plan and complete hop additions, etc.

It is a great time, a great atmosphere, and people enjoy it.

I could see the attraction of this, especially if you weren't of the homebrew type.

I'm willing to give it another shot, so we'll have to come up with a time to meet and go to Rhodell's and have a few more of his brews.

I just don't understand his business.

Actually, sonvolt, there's a small chance we may have met at Kelleher's once. . . I remember running into an avid homebrewer there at the bar once who indicated his involvement with this forum. . .

Geez, sonvolt, I'm not attacking the guy, but I'm also not the only one who doesn't seem to understand his business. I'll buy that BOP works best as an extract venture.

However, I do single barrel AG brews in my backyard with a low to modest financial investment, and the rig takes up about as much space as a large coat closet.

I guess I'd just like to see a "professional" live up to his potential, at least when it comes to the beer he serves to his patrons.

Part of what they offer, though, is having all the equipment on-site and handling all of the cleaning and sanitation for you. How much more gear do YOU use doing AG versus extract? How much more time does it take to clean all that gear?

More equipment = more money tied up in fixed inventory
More time per batch = lower turnover, fewer customers going through the doors, lower revenues
More cleanup time = more costs
More complicated process = need for more employees to hand-hold and answer questions, more costs
Liklihood of AG brewers being willing to pay more for the BOP's services = nil

Besides, I would imagine that *most* (certainly not all) of the patrons of BOP faciliities are either new to the hobby or aren't as into the nitty-gritty aspects of AG as we are.

I would really be shocked to see any BOP try and operate in any other way than with extract.

I still think it would be cool to have an all grain setup on site for the brewmaster to exact his skill and demonstrate the full process and his full prowess as a brewer.

I can understand the cost constraints, but if it were me, I'd want it just to demonstrate on. . . He could even get one of the bigger B3 systems.

Doesn't matter what I think though, he'll run his business how he wants to.

Biermann said:

I still think it would be cool to have an all grain setup on site for the brewmaster to exact his skill and demonstrate the full process and his full prowess as a brewer.

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THAT pretty much says it. I'll concede that BOP AG is probably a losing proposition, but Biermann hit the nail on the head when it comes to brewing the beer served there.

Ok, sonvolt, I'm ready to go to Rhodell's again. . . .

As stated before, I'm more than willing to give another go at this and give Marc every lasting bit of doubt. .. .

I'm going to be available tomorrow night. I will probably be at Rhodell's around 10 PM.

I'd like to meet you and have your take on things.

I'll be sitting at one of the tables next to the brewing area. :cross:

C'mon Sonvolt. .. .

Biermann said:

C'mon Sonvolt. .. .

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Didn't see this until this morning . . .

Did you end up going?

sonvolt said:

Didn't see this until this morning . . .

Did you end up going?

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He posted yesterday that he was going 'tomorrow.'

I think he means tonight (Wednesday the 20th!)

Will these two get together.. will there bloom a love that dare not speak its name. Stay tuned to As the Wort Churns.

Orpheus said:

He posted yesterday that he was going 'tomorrow.'

I think he means tonight (Wednesday the 20th!)

Will these two get together.. will there bloom a love that dare not speak its name. Stay tuned to As the Wort Churns.

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Bawahhahaha!

I'm going to Tivo it.

I don't know... sounds like the kind of show that would air on Bravo, you know what I mean?

the_bird said:

I don't know... sounds like the kind of show that would air on Bravo, you know what I mean?

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Not that there's anything wrong with that!

Nice. No, I didn't end up going for a multitude of reasons, the biggest being that I had way too much homebrew and Avery "Old Jubilation" the night before....

I'm pretty sure my liver was aching yesterday, so I thought it reasonable to let it recover.

I definitely want to go again, and soon.