A Few Water Volume Questions

I have a few noobish questions for you:

So I have 5G kettle and an extract kit with specialty grains intended for 5 gallons. Obviously I won't be able to 5 full gallons into the pot, I'm thinking I'll probably start with 4ish gallons in hopes that it won't boil over. Is this about the correct amount to use?

My understanding is that I will pour the wort into the fermentor and then add water until it reaches five gallons. So what difference does it make how much water I actually use for the wort? Should I try to use as much as possible? Why can't I add the water before pitching the yeast to help cool the wort? It seems like that would make it hella-easy.

Another question: How much does the batch size matter? Could I just make 2.5 gallon batches by following the normal processes uses the standard 5 gallon pot and 6.5 gallon fermenting buckets/carboy by simply cutting recipes in half? What difference if any would this make?


Thanks for your help!

The extract kit will likely tell you to steep the grains in about 2 gallons of water and then rinse in about 1 gallon. Then boil, add extract, hops, cool, then top off to 5 gallons... check the directions that came with the kit.

Another thing to think about is chilling. If you don't have a chiller, you'd be better off with a smaller boil volume and topping off with chilled water to help get to your pitching temperature.

Alot of your answers come down to hop utilization during the boil. If you start changing volumes, other parts of the recipe will need to change to achieve the flavor you're going for (IBUs, etc.).

You'd need beersmith or some sort of recipe software to help make the changes...otherwise you're shooting in the dark.

AnOldUR said:

Another thing to think about is chilling. If you don't have a chiller, you'd be better off with a smaller boil volume and topping off with chilled water to help get to your pitching temperature.

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So I can use cool water to chill the wort?

ThereThere said:

So I can use cool water to chill the wort?

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Yes, as cold as you can get it. That's one of the nice things about partial boil. Take advantage of it.

Go with whatever volumes the directions say and you will get the intended hop utilization.




edit:
When I did extract I'd stick gallon bottles of spring water in the fridge.

BigB said:

The extract kit will likely tell you to steep the grains in about 2 gallons of water and then rinse in about 1 gallon. Then boil, add extract, hops, cool, then top off to 5 gallons... check the directions that came with the kit.

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I did. It says: "Add a minimum 1.5 -2 gallons of tap water to your pot. If you have a larger pot and can boil a larger volume do so. Boiling a larger volume will result in better hop utilization, less darkening of the wort and better tasting beer. REMEMBER: Boilovers are messy – be sure to leave a gallon or two of headspace in the kettle."

Am I supposed to steep the grains in two gallons and then add another gallon or so before I boil it?


Another question: are the gallon jugs of water of drinking or distilled water you can buy at the store already clean? Could I just pour water in directly from the jug rather than boiling the water?

Only brew with water you would drink. No city tap water unless you filter.

For stovetop brewing I steep in a different pot at 1-3 quarts of water per pound of grains(usually 1/2 gallon). When I have about 20 minutes left in the steep I start my water boiling in the brewpot.

I have never topped off with water that I didn't boil. I know some people do but I go through a lot of time and trouble to sanitize everything else I don't want to miss something easy like the not boiling top off water. You can boil and cool it the day before then store it in the fridge/freezer overnight in a sanitized container. I have a 4 and 5 gallon pot so boil water in both and cool them with a wort chiller.

ThereThere said:

I did. It says: "Add a minimum 1.5 -2 gallons of tap water to your pot. If you have a larger pot and can boil a larger volume do so. Boiling a larger volume will result in better hop utilization, less darkening of the wort and better tasting beer. REMEMBER: Boilovers are messy – be sure to leave a gallon or two of headspace in the kettle."

Am I supposed to steep the grains in two gallons and then add another gallon or so before I boil it?

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The other gallon would be in another pot. After you drain off the wort out of the grains from the initial 2 gallons, you would move the grain bag to the pot with the 1 gallon and let that steep another 10 minutes. Then after draining that, discard the grains and add the 1 gallon wort to the initial pot that had 2 gallons. Boil this and add the extract and hops to this. If you wanted to, you could use more water initially, but you would slightly increase the bitterness because of better hop utilization. It really would be a marginal difference unless you boiled LOTS more wort.

ThereThere said:

Another question: are the gallon jugs of water of drinking or distilled water you can buy at the store already clean? Could I just pour water in directly from the jug rather than boiling the water?

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They are as clean as most city tap water supplies. If your city water tastes fine out of the tap, then you can use that. Don't stress about water (with extract batches) unless your city water tastes like crap or it isn't clean. Ideally, you would boil the water before using it- you can even do this ahead of time and allow it to cool. But, if your tap water is clean, you can usually get away with using it straight from the tap. Whatever you do, don't use ice out of your refrigerator (which is often the dirtiest part of one's home) or from the store (you have no idea the conditions of the plant).

BigB said:

The other gallon would be in another pot. After you drain off the wort out of the grains from the initial 2 gallons, you would move the grain bag to the pot with the 1 gallon and let that steep another 10 minutes. Then after draining that, discard the grains and add the 1 gallon wort to the initial pot that had 2 gallons. Boil this and add the extract and hops to this. If you wanted to, you could use more water initially, but you would slightly increase the bitterness because of better hop utilization. It really would be a marginal difference unless you boiled LOTS more wort.

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What do you mean "drain off the wort?" I'll just be steeping it in the two gallons and then in the one gallon, correct? Why would this result in less hop utilization then just steeping the grain in three gallons of water?

I'm thinking I'll just use 3.5-4 gallons in one pot to save myself the trouble. This won't alter the steeping time of the grain, correct?

ThereThere said:

Another question: How much does the batch size matter? Could I just make 2.5 gallon batches by following the normal processes uses the standard 5 gallon pot and 6.5 gallon fermenting buckets/carboy by simply cutting recipes in half? What difference if any would this make?

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BurntOrngeLonghorn84 said:

Alot of your answers come down to hop utilization during the boil. If you start changing volumes, other parts of the recipe will need to change to achieve the flavor you're going for (IBUs, etc.).

You'd need beersmith or some sort of recipe software to help make the changes...otherwise you're shooting in the dark.

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@ Burnt - you are correct except that if he is simply cutting recipes in half (i.g. 1/2 volume, 1/2 hops, 1/2 malt), then there would be no changes. Also, reading a book like Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniel and calculating at least one recipe 100% by hand is a good exercise for any brewer. I think it helps you understand the process better and allows you to make good estimates when your software isn't handy, like when you're at the LHBS and they're out of that grain/hop/whatever you were planning on. (I have to admit, I am addicted to brewing software myself and fortunately, my LHBS has a computer available with several apps on it).

@ ThereThere, go ahead and split batches in half, add different finishing hops, add different yeats, ferment at different temps! But if you are altering recipes other than a simple chop in half across all ingredients, follow Burnt's advice... Although I recommend ProMash

Hop utilization is a factor of the amount wort it is boiled in. You missed the point of what I was telling you about 2 gallons and 1 gallon. The initial 2 gallons is for the steep, the 1 gallon is for a rinse and is done at a higher temperature than the initial 2 gallons. The one gallon rinse (or sparge if you were doing a partial mash or all grain) allows one to get better extraction from the grains. True this is not critical in an extract batch, but why not get everything you can out of the grains for your beer? The better hop utilization was not a reference to what you were steeping, but rather the total amount of wort that would be boiled. For example, if you boil 2 gallons of wort you will get LESS hop utilization and thus less bitterness from the hops; if you boiled the hops in 4 gallons of wort you would get MORE hop utilization and more bitterness from the hops. Further, I would not steep in 3.5-4 gallons of water due to the risk of tannin extraction.

After steeping, hold bag above pot to let fluids "drain" out.

Steep in second separate one gallon to ensure than you've more thoroughly rinsed the grain.




edit:
Oops! too slow.
Just trying to save you some typing BigB, but you have this covered very well.

AnOldUR said:

After steeping, hold bag above pot to let fluids "drain" out.

Steep in second separate one gallon to ensure than you've more thoroughly rinsed the grain.




edit:
Oops! too slow.
Just trying to save you some typing BigB, but you have this covered very well.

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LOL, actually I thought you said it more concisely and clearly than I did! I sometimes tend to get too cerebral!

BigB said:

I sometimes tend to get too cerebral!

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Yeah, that's something I'll never be accused of. :cross:

I don't think anyone else mentioned this but you want to top off with bottled water so you know it's clean (and tastes ok) The advantage of this is that you can put the water in the fridge for a day or two so it's really cold. This will bring down the temperature of the wort coming off the stove faster. You can take the pot and put it in an ice bath in your kitchen sink for 20 minutes or so, then pour into your fermenter (making sure to leave as much of the muck at the bottom of the pot out of the fermenter), add your pre-chilled bottled water and you should be much closer to pitching temp (usually around 70* or so where you add the yeast). Check the temperature and when it is around 70*, add the yeast.

So I do add the water I used to rinse the grain to the wort?

ThereThere said:

So I do add the water I used to rinse the grain to the wort?

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Yes. This water will have the sugars that have been "rinsed" off the grain bag. Actually, when steeping, you are not rinsing sugars as much as you are rinsing flavor and aroma compounds. That being said, you still want to include all of these compounds.

In a true mash, the object is to extract as many sugars as possible (without extracting tannins and other undesirable compounds) from the grain bed. You rinse to make sure you don't leave additional sugar behind. This is what people are reffering to when they talk about mash efficiency - your efficiency at extracting potential sugars from the mash.

You are doing the same thing, but instead of sugars (and thus, fermentables), you are extracting flavor and aroma compounds. The rinse water will contain a certain amount of these compounds and will add to the overall flavor of your beer.

How much water should I aim for at the start of a partial boil for a 5 gallon batch in a 5 gallon kettle.

ThereThere said:

How much water should I aim for at the start of a partial boil for a 5 gallon batch in a 5 gallon kettle.

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As much as you can, without boiling over.

Yooper said:

As much as you can, without boiling over.

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What she said! I think the less you top off the better.

ThereThere said:

How much water should I aim for at the start of a partial boil for a 5 gallon batch in a 5 gallon kettle.

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I agree with Yooper, but if you're looking for a good starting point, try 3.5 - 3.75 gallons. A good vigorous boil will reach the lip quickly at these volumes. If you're on a stove top, the boil over may not be as excited though. Which brings up another good point...

You should never have a larger volume of wort boiling than you can achieve an adequate rolling boil. The boil drives off undesirable compounds, most notable, DMS. Simmering 4 gallons of water for an hour is far less desirable than 3 gallons at a good roll.

Yooper said:

As much as you can, without boiling over.

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True unless you're doing a kit with the hop usage that expects a specific partial boil.

My wonderful father-in-law bought be a Northern Brewer IPA kit for Christmas.

It has a 3lb jug of extract to be used for 60 mins, then a 6lb late addition at 15 mins.

Can I just use the full amount of extract and boil the full volume of water needed? I've got all the equipment to boil and cool a large volume(15 keggle and 8 gallon stainless pot).

Would it be best to boil the 6lbs for 60 then use the 3lb to top off to correct volume?