Proposed Style Guidelines. Cascadian Dark Ale

carnevoodoo said:

Why does it HAVE to be Cascadian Dark Ale? Why does it matter so much? People like thinking they're special, that's why.

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Darn straight we do!

The answer of course, is that it doesn't HAVE to be Cascadian Dark Ale anymore than it HAS to be a Black IPA.

I just prefer it because

A)- it doesn't get confused with "normal" IPAs.

B)- it pays homage to a geographic region that helped it gain popularity. (Which I happen to live in- and you do too if the term "Cascadian" sticks.)

I have a great idea. Let's all brew a dark colored APA. It will have 120+ IBUs and a SRM minimum of 80. We'll require that it only use hydroponically grown hops, NW hop varieties will be an automatic disqualifier from this category. You have to blend in some genuine moonshine, and home made barbecue sauce. it should be fermented at 95 degrees and 100% humidity. We'll call it "appalachian ale"

any takers?

Black IPA is almost certainly the more globally recognized name for the style. The Vermont Brew Pub has had one for more than five years. If it's just recognition of the style you want, instead of a bit of homage for your region, you'd care less about a name that is more commonly accepted anyway.

Or is it that there's a bit of cognitive dissonance occurring because you'd like acknowledgement and to feel special?

carnevoodoo said:

I don't hate it. I just think it is silly and pretentious.

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Seems like the PNW culture finds itself doing a lot of things that are kind of silly and pretentious. PNW very much considers itself a kind of "indie" mecca and a trendsetter (and sometimes this proves to be true), and I think this has carried over into the beer world.

All I know is - I would be sad without my northwest hops and beerstyles, as well as my OLY/SEA/PDX local music scenes, as well as my fierce appreciation of rugged nature through the window of a huge gas guzzling SUV.......I would miss the panhandlers and the homeless too. The PNW is a land of condtradictions and a lot of self-pride, but what region isn't?

marketing has no place in bjcp.

this is just a campaign to sell more cascades.

Well there is zero chance that thing gets adopted as written, no worries there. The question is, why write it that way in the first place? I am much more offended by the editorial content than the name.

Also, frankly, the color parameter is an absurd mistake and makes me question how much effort went into writing that. Reading that makes one appreciate that Gordon Strong is either very talented or worked very hard on the 2004 guidelines.

my porter is 30 srm. and it's pretty d*mn dark

I like the idea of a "Black IPA" making into the guidelines but not limiting its hop choice to PNW varieties. I bet you could make a hellulatasty dark, highly-hopped beer using classic English hop varities. A wee bit of roastiness alongside some nice Fuggles and EKG...

"Cascadian Dark Ale" is needlessly limiting, when the key focus (IMHO) is on the pairing of a dark, subtly-roasty beer with a lot of hops. No need to limit the hop choices.

Those are historical styles. They didn't make up a BJCP style for themselves.

Unfortunately, as global and connected as the world is today, its going to be really hard to name regional beers anymore. As soon as someone in California brews a beer, someone in NY can brew the exact same thing a week later.

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That's semantics... They are historical due to region specificity and distinction. As to beers not being geographically contained, that isn't the arguement, the stance is that these beers ORIGINATED here, and the name is an expression of that fact.

My recollection, having lived in Portland until about 2.5 years ago, is that they were called black IPAs in the PNW until very recently.

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True, maybe as recently as say someone suggested a distinction be made in say the BJCP guidelines that recognizes a regional trend and offered up a name to catagorize said distinction.

I have a great idea. Let's all brew a dark colored APA. It will have 120+ IBUs and a SRM minimum of 80. We'll require that it only use hydroponically grown hops, NW hop varieties will be an automatic disqualifier from this category. You have to blend in some genuine moonshine, and home made barbecue sauce. it should be fermented at 95 degrees and 100% humidity. We'll call it "appalachian ale"

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Go for it, as well as the guy who proposed doing some other absurdity a few pages back. If it catches on, and, as the write up stated with regard to CDA, people are brewing it all over the place after a decade, then maybe we can consider you proposal.

I like the idea of a "Black IPA" making into the guidelines but not limiting its hop choice to PNW varieties. I bet you could make a hellulatasty dark, highly-hopped beer using classic English hop varities. A wee bit of roastiness alongside some nice Fuggles and EKG...

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Fair enough, but the suggestion wasn't for a broad range black IPA. It specified a regional ingredient and its use by those in, perhaps, this catagory. Using EKG could certainly be used in a black IPA, but it wouldn't be used in a CDA.

"Cascadian Dark Ale" is needlessly limiting, when the key focus (IMHO) is on the pairing of a dark, subtly-roasty beer with a lot of hops. No need to limit the hop choices.

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Why not, plenty of other styles limit hop or grain choices. A true wiezen isn't going to be made with chinook, although I suppose you could, but it wouldn't be brewed to style. I suppose you could use US 2 row in an English brown, but again the style calls for Pale English. Even yeast is limited in style sheets. If you don't want to brew to style, fine, but if style is an important consideration then a guide for a regional beer that calls for a regional ingredient is more than valid.

Boooooorinnnnnng.

^^^^
Awesome, thanks for playing, your contribution has been noted.

EMPyre said:

Fair enough, but the suggestion wasn't for a broad range black IPA. It specified a regional ingredient and its use by those in, perhaps, this catagory. Using EKG could certainly be used in a black IPA, but it wouldn't be used in a CDA.
.

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I agree here - I think what turns me off, and I suspect other people - is the over-mention of NW and Casdadia and everything else that refers to the West Coast. If you want to make Black IPA a style, then do it, but it's too broad a thing to limit to NW hops. It's almost egocentric in some regards. Yes I live on the Hop Coast and sure I'd like to promote NW hops, but this is a style made up by homebrewers for homebrewers to judge homebrews against. Let's allow ourselves to use New Zeland hops or Japanese hops or hops from the moon - why limit ourselves?

Just to be completely clear, the style guide is based on COMMERCIAL beers, not a bunch of pretentious PNW beer S.N.O.B.s. The style and naming were developed by professional brewers, not BJCP judges.

I've never seen nor heard of any of those style examples.

Granted, this might be from my limited beer experience, and the fact that I live in Milwaukee. It seems that your pro brewers are being a bit snobbish in the fact that they think everyone knows about their little brewing world. I have had darker IPAs and amber IPAs. I've never heard the term Cascadian Dark.

Anyone could create a local style. I think styles should be historical, rather than local.

motobrewer said:

Granted, this might be from my limited beer experience, and the fact that I live in Milwaukee. It seems that your pro brewers are being a bit snobbish in the fact that they think everyone knows about their little brewing world. I have had darker IPAs and amber IPAs. I've never heard the term Cascadian Dark.

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Same here.


Cascadian Dark Ale sounds like something that would be served with a Grey Poupon Sandwich

david_42 said:

Just to be completely clear, the style guide is based on COMMERCIAL beers, not a bunch of pretentious PNW beer S.N.O.B.s. The style and naming were developed by professional brewers, not BJCP judges.

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Then submit it to the Brewer's Association. The BJCP guidelines describe beers that are commonly entered in home brewing competitions.

Regardless of who (home brewers in Texas, for the record) invented dark IPAs, nobody was calling them CDA until, like, the other day.

remilard said:

... nobody was calling them CDA until, like, the other day.

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This right here.

To take a style and say that you definitively know who invented it, and where is absurd.

"Munich Helles" is one of the few styles to designate a place, short of "english" or "american" which encompass a whole country.

Unless a style is historically established and clearly belongs to a certain area, which this one doesn't, call it what you want, but don't expect the rest of us to.

cheezydemon3 said:

To take a style and say that you definitively know who invented it, and where is absurd.

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Except for Vienna, Pilsner (the town of Pilsno), Budweizer (the town of Budejovice), Munich Dunkel, Munich Helles, Berliner Weisse, Bavarian Hefe, Belgian Wit, Belgian Blonde, Belgian Strong etc, etc, etc. Pretty much EVERY style is specific to a region (in the beginning at least).

I like the idea for naming this beer Cascadian Dark Ale, everybody is calling it this name anyways. For sure American-India Dark-Pale Ale makes no sense at all.

Who's "everybody?"

I've heard people talk about "Black IPAs" for years. "Cascadian Dark Ales"... as noted, first heard that two days ago.

Calling something an "IPA" - even if is it *not* pale - is a lot less confusing than calling something a "dark ale." Everyone knows IPA = metric ****ton of hops. "Dark Ale" provides absolutely no descriptive information; could be a stout, for all the information that name provides.

To be fair...Yes, Cascadian Dark Ale is somewhat new, but not this past week. I first heard it being used in June/July of last year. But then again, I'm in Portland where the movement was started.

I'm a little shocked at the amount of hostility being expressed here for the "idea" of creating a style. Yeah, sure maybe CDA isn't quite right...but I think there is merit to creating a style. Or maybe this is evidence that the BJCP shouldn't even be in existence and we go back to the days of just ales and lagers...At least that's what I'm hearing from most of your responses.

Kilted Brewer said:

To be fare...Yes, Cascadian Dark Ale is somewhat new, but not this past week. I first heard it being used in June/July of last year. But then again, I'm in Portland where the movement was started.

I'm a little shocked at the amount of hostility being expressed here for the "idea" of creating a style. Yeah, sure maybe CDA isn't quite right...but I think there is merit to creating a style. Or maybe this is evidence that the BJCP shouldn't even be in existence and we go back to the days of just ales and lagers...At least that's what I'm hearing from most of your responses.

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I don't think anyone has an issue with a "Black IPA" type beer style.


The problem is the description and title are ridiculous. Like someone said earlier, might as well put "Must be brewed in Oregon" in the description.

Creating a new style for the CDA sounds fine to me. I can see how others not in the PNW might not see the need for it, though. But 80% of the breweries and good pubs you go to around here have this style. When it is becoming that popular, it just makes sense. If you are on the East coast and only one bar you know of has it, then I can see why you would think its just a darker-colored IPA.

the_bird said:

"Black IPAs".

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If it's "Black" then it's not "Pale". If it's "American" Then it's not "India".
But on the other hand, we do have "giant shrimp" and "vegetarian meatballs". Let's just accurately estimate and agree to disagree

Synovia said:

The problem is the description and title are ridiculous. Like someone said earlier, might as well put "Must be brewed in Oregon" in the description.

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Why? What about it gives you that impression? Because it says NW hops are used? Have you looked at any BJCP guideline? Don't they all state what style hops, grains, etc should be used? The proposed guidelines also state other hope varieties can be used. It's just giving props to the region where most folks believe the style came to be. Take that out, would you be happy?

Scooby_Brew said:

If it's "Black" then it's not "Pale". If it's "American" Then it's not "India".
But on the other hand, we do have "giant shrimp" and "vegetarian meatballs". Let's just accurately estimate and agree to disagree

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Neither is any standard IPA today.

Scooby_Brew said:

If it's "Black" then it's not "Pale". If it's "American" Then it's not "India".
But on the other hand, we do have "giant shrimp" and "vegetarian meatballs". Let's just accurately estimate and agree to disagree

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Sure, but the Imperial India Pale Ale is just as incorrect. I mean that never happened! The Black IPA works because it is a black version of a specific style which really is only named for history and not with how it is currently produced. American IPAs are very, very different than anything that might have ever been sent to India, but I'm sure you know that.

It is a black or dark version of an existing style. The IPA boom on the West Coast is where it is concentrated, sure, but so are IIPAs. Saying something is in tons of pubs in Portland is pretty silly because we all understand what the culture is like up there. But to make such a ridiculous name for it, no thanks.

If it would have been proposed as the Northwestern Black Ale, I'd even be less hesitant about it. Of course, that description would have to be less of a jerk-off fest and more about the actual style, but whatever.

Kilted Brewer said:

Why? What about it gives you that impression? Because it says NW hops are used? Have you looked at any BJCP guideline? Don't they all state what style hops, grains, etc should be used? The proposed guidelines also state other hope varieties can be used. It's just giving props to the region where most folks believe the style came to be. Take that out, would you be happy?

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Northwest hops... As opposed to the ones we grow in Southern California? You guys are the hop producing region for the country, so it seems a little redundant. You could just say American hop varieties.

Scooby_Brew said:

If it's "Black" then it's not "Pale". If it's "American" Then it's not "India".
But on the other hand, we do have "giant shrimp" and "vegetarian meatballs". Let's just accurately estimate and agree to disagree

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Well, technically IPA's aren't Indian, they are English. I have no qualm with using the work "India" to denote purposefully hoppy beers. I think India Dark Ale, American Dark Ale, or American Black Ale would be sufficient. India Dark would be good since it could encompass any hop variety the brewer wanted. American would limit to American hops, but that probably how 95% of these beers are brewed. Most hops are grown in the PNW anyways, so all of the references kind of come off as pretentious, whether it was written like that or not.

To be fair, you could throw in a statement in the "history" section about how it was popularized in the Pacific Northwest. I think on whole, nobody really gets the "Cascadian" term unless you are from the area. When I first saw it, I thought somebody really liked Narnia or something.

Edcculus said:

To be fair, you could throw in a statement in the "history" section about how it was popularized in the Pacific Northwest. I think on whole, nobody really gets the "Cascadian" term unless you are from the area. When I first saw it, I thought somebody really liked Narnia or something.

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I'm guilty on this. At first, I thought "Cascadian" was referring to the hop varitety, not the region. Guar-an-tee that if "Cascadian Dark Ale" becomes a style, there will be countless judges who insist that a CDA *must* include Cascade hops to be true to style.

the_bird said:

I'm guilty on this. At first, I thought "Cascadian" was referring to the hop varitety, not the region. Guar-an-tee that if "Cascadian Dark Ale" becomes a style, there will be countless judges who insist that a CDA *must* include Cascade hops to be true to style.

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Yea, my second reaction, after the Narnia thing was that it was only Cascades. I was confused, because I didn't remember Sublimely Self Righteous, the only "dark hoppy ale" I've had being a Cascade bomb.

Why not call it an American black ale?

I think most of the critics of this style description are put off by the repeated and restrictive references to the northwest. Eight references to NW? really? Eight?

I read through the BJCP guidelines for other styles. None of specify hop varieties repeatedly, with this degree of specificity. Many style guidelines offer recommendations for “noble hop varieties” or “American hop varieties”. None of the guidelines refer to a specific region for hops. Even the English ale descriptions note that American varieties can be used.

The BIG difference is that BJC guidelines describe the TASTE and AROMA of the hops used, rather than (repeatedly and bluntly) telling the brewer where the hops should come from i.e. floral, fruity, citrusy, spicy, earthy, minty, grassy, etc. So, if you want this style to smell and taste like cascade hops why not do us all a favor and describe the characteristics of PNW hop varieties and leave the marketing to the brewers.

^^^ this ^^^

Agree. You nailed it.

American Black Ale. Moderately roasty, heavily hopped. Dry finish. High ABV.

Also, if its commercial brewers doing this, why not propose it to be a GABF style? Keep your marketing and snobbery out of the BJCP.

I have been seeing more and more of these entered into competitions over the last year or two. The problem, as I see it, is that if you enter them in the IPA category 14, you lose because you are out of style. So that leaves the specialty beer category 23, e.g. beers that don't fit anywhere else and has your Black IPA being judged against people's butt flavored beer, peppermint flavored beers and Imperial Mild Ales. It becomes a crap shoot.

I would imagine that more and more of these are going to be entered into Category 23 until either a new category 14D is added to the BJCP category or the 14 styles are expanded so that these black IPAs can be included under the current subcategories.

I don't care what it is called ultimately, but I think over the next couple of years it will deserve its own 14D subcategory. Although, its worth it to point out that the term "pale" when used to describe a pale ale or IPA has about as much descriptive accuracy as the term "bitter" when referring to an ESB or Ordinary Bitter. Pale is a historical term that was used to distinguish the style from Porters and Stouts. At the end of the day a "CDA" or "black IPA", despite its color, has a lot more in common flavorwise with IPAs then it does stouts or porters. Yet despite the historical origins of the term, you can file me under one of those who is just annoyed by the oxymoron "Black IPA."

Personally, I think the best description that includes a nod to its parent beer the IPA is India Black Ale. Just sweep all the beers from india style brown ales to india style black ales into the new category and expand the 14C category to include imperial versions. As to the inclusion of "NW hops"... it seems to me that if you are brewing a true English style beer, you should probably use english hops and yeasts, e.g. EKG. Can you make an award winning english ale using New Zealand hops? Sure, but you run the risk of being out of style. Likewise with American IPAs and the Black IPA is an American creation. The description should probably indicate that they typically use American hops. By definition, that will probably include a LOT of NW hops.

jmo88 said:

Creating a new style for the CDA sounds fine to me. I can see how others not in the PNW might not see the need for it, though. But 80% of the breweries and good pubs you go to around here have this style. When it is becoming that popular, it just makes sense.

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The purpose of the BJCP is not to produce guidelines that describe commercially popular styles in any region.

Regardless, dark IPAs are brewed all over the country, the were brewed in Texas before Oregon, and nobody called them CDA until I would guess Hopworks, which has only been open about 2 years right?

DrDirt said:

None of specify hop varieties repeatedly, with this degree of specificity.

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You may want to take a look at this again:

Aroma: Typically showcases the signature Northern Brewer hops (with woody, rustic or minty qualities) in moderate to high strength. Light fruitiness acceptable. Low to moderate caramel and/or toasty malt aromatics support the hops. No diacetyl.
...
Flavor: Moderately malty with a pronounced hop bitterness. The malt character is usually toasty (not roasted) and caramelly. Low to moderately high hop flavor, usually showing Northern Brewer qualities (woody, rustic, minty). Finish fairly dry and crisp, with a lingering hop bitterness and a firm, grainy malt flavor. Light fruity esters are acceptable, but otherwise clean. No diacetyl.
...
Overall Impression: A lightly fruity beer with firm, grainy maltiness, interesting toasty and caramel flavors, and showcasing the signature Northern Brewer varietal hop character.

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remilard said:

the were brewed in Texas before Oregon, and nobody called them CDA until I would guess Hopworks, which has only been open about 2 years right?

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Not doubting this at all...but where's the back up? I can't find any reference to TX and "black ipa" anywhere.

phasedweasel said:

... The Vermont Brew Pub has had one for more than five years. ...

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Actually, longer than that. It is pretty well known that the late Greg Noonan brewed what is now Blackwatch IPA, a dark India ale, during his first stint at VBP in the early 1990s. And to call it a dark pale ale is just stupid - like military intelligence or hot water heater.

No. It should actually be attributed to Vermont or, more fitting, Noonan himself. Since Greg Noonan made such an imprint in the world of microbrewing and homebrewing, I'd much rather see it named in his honor.

http://hillfarmstead.blogspot.com/2009/11/quiet-return-home.html

Kilted Brewer said:

You may want to take a look at this again:

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Well, to be fair, that's because there's really only one commercial example of the California Common style, and Anchor Steam is known for using NB hops. If this was a more common commercial style, with commercial breweries using different varieties, I bet the guidelines would be written more broadly.

I'm cool with "American Black Ale" or "India Black Ale"; I think either expresses the key elements of this beer's sytle, without being unfairly location-specific or pretentious.