Keg Hose Insert to Increase Serving Pressure?

Hi All,

I've been kegging my beer for a little while. Got a functional kegerator and all. But I always seem to have problems with foam. I know all the calculations for getting the serving pressure right. The problem is that with my setup, the suggested serving pressure is so low that I have to settle for undercarbonated beer. I think this is because my fridge is kind of old and doesn't get very cold. If it were colder, the beer would probably be carbonated just fine at the recommended serving pressure. What I end up doing is trying to increase the serving pressure to maintain more carbonation. But this makes foam...

So, I have two choices, the way I see it. I can get a colder fridge ($$$), or I can do something to increase the serving pressure. I already have a 3/16" hose to the tap. I don't want to make it longer and have a bunch of extra hose. I can't really raise the tap significantly.

I remember reading about an insert for the hose that will resist teh flow. Does anyone know what this is called and where I can find one? I believe it was a piece of plastic. Like a foot long. I think I'd like to try that.

EDIT: Found it here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/cure-your-short-hose-troubles-100151/

Couldn't you just increase the pressure when you're not serving the beer? That would keep it carbonated, and then you would just turn it down a bit to let it flow slowly/smoothly enough when it's serving time.

You could play around with reducing pressure for serving but that adds a whole layer of BS to the ease of kegging.

You can play around with the epoxy mixing inserts but it's also not THAT bad to coil up 10 feet of serving line. I have my coils done up with zip ties and they sit right on top of the kegs.

yarnosh said:

I know all the calculations for getting the serving pressure right. The problem is that with my setup, the suggested serving pressure is so low that I have to settle for undercarbonated beer. I think this is because my fridge is kind of old and doesn't get very cold.

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These statements don't add up. The warmer the beer the higher the co2 pressure should be. And if you match your co2 pressure with your beer temp(and volumes of co2) your beer should never be under carbonated. Can you give us your temps, pressures and the type of beer served the most?

yarnosh,

this is the thread you're looking for: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/cure-your-short-hose-troubles-100151/

its the insert (an epoxy gun mixing nozzle) which you dismantle and slip in the dip tube)
I just ordered a dozen and got them in 2 days, and put one in a couple kegs yesterday, and it definitely slowed down my pour from the picnic tap. They are cheap enough I figured the bulk price for 12, knowing I have 5 kegs to use them on, it was a worthy risk.

Here's what I used to solve the problem and it works very well. This is polyethylene water supply line as used for refrigerator ice makers etc. You can buy just the tubing at Home Depot for $3 and change or so:

http://www.homedepot.com/Appliances...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Remove the keg long beer out dip tube and insert a section of the tubing inside, then trim flush at both ends with a sharp utility knife. This has the same effect as the epoxy mixing tubes and a lot cheaper and easier too IMO. Takes about 5 minutes to do. No need to use 10 ft long beer lines. My beer lines are about 3 ft long and I get nice foam free pours at serving pressures of 12-13 psi. No need to bleed off and waste gas either. It's cheap to try and if you have little to lose, so go for it!

pmeice86 said:

Couldn't you just increase the pressure when you're not serving the beer? That would keep it carbonated, and then you would just turn it down a bit to let it flow slowly/smoothly enough when it's serving time.

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Kind of a pain... and waste of CO2.

It is not at all a waste of CO2. You need a certain pressure for any given temperature to get the right level of carbonation. More pressure from the tank simply balances the pressure coming from the keg (the warmer the keg, the faster the CO2 bubbles in it move, making them stronger and, at a certain point, preventing any more CO2 from getting into the beer.)

Check this table for an idea of how high your regulator should be set based on how warm your fridge is.

http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

Once your beer has the right level of carbonation, then you can think about a resistor. If you simply put a resistor in without turning up the pressure, you're still going to have flat beer. Stick a thermometer in your fridge and see if your pressure matches that chart.

Here's a style-based calculator that will tell you what volume to shoot for.
http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

I bet once you have the pressure right for the fridge temp. you will still need a longer hose and/or a resistor. But maybe not.

It seems easier to just have longer lines. I coil them and zip-tie the coils and then tuck them down between the kegs to keep them as cold as possible. I do have those mixers mentioned in that linked thread but just haven't needed to use one yet. I did try the polyethylene line for ice makers and they were easy to use but for me just having longer lines is the easiest (i.e. laziest).

pmeice86 said:

It is not at all a waste of CO2.

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You suggested boosting pressure when NOT serving. This means that when you DO serve, you drop the pressure lower. That's the waste of CO2 that yarnosh was talking about and he's completely right.

Balanced lines are the answer. Whether you get there with longer lines, more narrow lines, a restriction of some sort doesn't matter. They all avoid the headache of changing the pressure.

Bobby_M said:

You suggested boosting pressure when NOT serving. This means that when you DO serve, you drop the pressure lower. That's the waste of CO2 that yarnosh was talking about and he's completely right.

Balanced lines are the answer. Whether you get there with longer lines, more narrow lines, a restriction of some sort doesn't matter. They all avoid the headache of changing the pressure.

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+1 Bobby has it exactly right. Furthermore, the less beer you have in the keg the more gas you will waste when bleeding off the excess pressure and bringing the pressure back up after serving. Some people have suggested that repeated charging and bleeding gas can scrub out hop aroma and possibly affect the hop flavor too. I can sure smell hop aromas coming out with the CO2 when I bleed off gas, so those aromatics are definitely leaving the keg along with the gas. When the keg is say, 3/4 empty, you are dealing with a very large head space that will take a considerable volume of gas to recharge. There is no way around this except to balance the system with longer lines or some kind of restrictors. When I first set up my keggerator I used the bleed off method. Next, I installed 10 ft long beer lines for each of the four kegs. I did not like having 40 ft of beer line to deal with. It was simply a general PIA to deal with in almost every way, ie cleaning it, hooking it up, it got in the way, took up valuable space and it was not cheap to buy in the first place. I'm much happier with 3 ft beer lines and the poly tubing in the DIP tubes. My CO2 tank gets much better mileage too, helping to reduce Accelerated Climate Change which may give us a few more years to drink more beer. It's a win-win for all.

I'm a little confused on how putting the tubing inside the dip tube reduces foam. Isn't this going to make the beer come out faster? For example, if you have water coming out of an 1" diameter hose and then you switch it to a 1/2" diameter hose at the same water pressure the water comes out of the 1/2" hose faster doesn't it?

crlova2 said:

I'm a little confused on how putting the tubing inside the dip tube reduces foam. Isn't this going to make the beer come out faster? For example, if you have water coming out of an 1" diameter hose and then you switch it to a 1/2" diameter hose at the same water pressure the water comes out of the 1/2" hose faster doesn't it?

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Inserting the tubing effectively and dramatically reduces the inside diameter of the dip tube and at the same time increases the resistance of the line. The increase in resistance will slow the flow rate and the pour will be much more gentle. The slower pour rate will reduce excessive foaming. You can achieve a similar effect by simply bleeding off keg pressure before pouring, however, this is a major PIA and wastes a lot of CO2. Additionally, some claim that the repeated charging and discharging of CO2 can strip some of the desirable flavor and aroma attributes from the beer. The main advantage with the tubing or epoxy mixing tubes is that you can avoid having to bleed off pressure when serving. Obviously, it's desirable to maintain a constant pressure in a keg so that the carbonation level stays where you want it, yet you want to be able to pour a beer without excessive foaming. Neither the tubing, nor the epoxy tubes are the perfect solution, but they help a lot. The added resistance in the beer line from the keg to the tap will add even more resistance and you can lengthen or shorten these to get the desired pour. The tubing and epoxy mixers let you shorten the beer lines substantially.

No, the water will discharge faster from a 1" hose vs. a 1/2" hose for a given equal pressure at the connection. There will be a pressure drop and flow rate reduction with either hose, but the losses will be greater with the smaller diameter hose.

A tapered nozzle attached either hose will increase the flow velocity at the outlet vs no nozzle, but the rate of flow will be reduced some as a result. This can be deceptive as it appears that the more forceful and higher velocity stream would be delivering more water, but it actually is delivering less. A 1" ID hose has about four times the cross sectional area of a 1/2" hose. That's a huge difference and there will also be a huge difference in the frictional resistance to flow.

Cat22, I like your ideas here. I'm waiting on my keg equipment and have been reading all I can to prepare for it. This seems better to me than the epoxy inserts. I am expecting 3' of line for my two kegs in my shipment and I have read all sorts of problems with this short of length. My question to you is, though you have the same length of lines, do you think your pour could be even better if you had say 5' of lines with the hose inserts? Basically, I'm wondering if I might as well use 5' or so before I assemble everything for safe measure. My space is limited in the 4.4cu Frigidaire, however.

I use the tubing just like catt works great with my 12" picnic tap. I am sure when I increase my hose to about 6 ft when I use my trashcan kegerator it will be even better.

jmo88 said:

Cat22, I like your ideas here. I'm waiting on my keg equipment and have been reading all I can to prepare for it. This seems better to me than the epoxy inserts. I am expecting 3' of line for my two kegs in my shipment and I have read all sorts of problems with this short of length. My question to you is, though you have the same length of lines, do you think your pour could be even better if you had say 5' of lines with the hose inserts? Basically, I'm wondering if I might as well use 5' or so before I assemble everything for safe measure. My space is limited in the 4.4cu Frigidaire, however.

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Yes, the 5' lines will likely work even better. Keep in mind that it's easy to shorten the lines if need be, but that's unlikely. Excessively long lines necessitate keeping the kegs at higher pressures which could result in overcarbed beer at some point, but I'm guessing you could easily go up to 8 ft without problems and probably longer than that. The type of faucet used also has some influence on how well the beer pours as does the serving temperature and the carbonation level. I'm pretty happy with the way my set up is performing.

akthor said:

I use the tubing just like catt works great with my 12" picnic tap. I am sure when I increase my hose to about 6 ft when I use my trashcan kegerator it will be even better.

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I can almost guarantee that it will work better. You may want to take measures to keep the beer line as cool as possible. Coil the excess on top of the keg to keep it cool if you can.

Catt22 said:

Coil the excess on top of the keg to keep it cool if you can.

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I've personally not had luck coiling the line on top of the keg. Instead, i coil it around the keg itself, mostly towards the base. So far this has worked really well for me. However, i do use 10ft lines and this wouldn't work well for anything much shorter.

I just listened to "The Perfect Pour" Episode of BN's Brew Strong and Jamil and John were asked this same question about this tubing in the dip stick. They didn't believe it would work and the main reason being that the restriction of the line should be closer to the faucet. They also went on to say that if the beer is restricted at the beginning of the line and then pushed through a larger line it would increase foam.

However, I see that the ID of these tubes are .17 and that is pretty damn close to 3/16 beer line. Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud here to hear what you all might say.

In the same podcast they are awfully persuasive in suggesting that 5-6' lines are perfect for the average setup. Of course this is contrary to a lot of my recent reading on this forum.

jmo88 said:

I just listened to "The Perfect Pour" Episode of BN's Brew Strong and Jamil and John were asked this same question about this tubing in the dip stick. They didn't believe it would work and the main reason being that the restriction of the line should be closer to the faucet. They also went on to say that if the beer is restricted at the beginning of the line and then pushed through a larger line it would increase foam.

However, I see that the ID of these tubes are .17 and that is pretty damn close to 3/16 beer line. Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud here to hear what you all might say.

In the same podcast they are awfully persuasive in suggesting that 5-6' lines are perfect for the average setup. Of course this is contrary to a lot of my recent reading on this forum.

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While Jamil and John certainly know more about brewing than I ever will, I think you have it right that the 0.17 and the 3/16 diameters are very close to the point that the difference will be negligible. I'm convinced that the benefit is primarily due to increasing the resistance for the length of the dip tube. It's not a whole lot, but it seems to be enough to make a significant difference in the pour. I think the dip tube is about 2 feet long, so with my 3 feet of beer line from the keg to the tap I have about 5 feet total which is what those guys seem to be recommending. All I can say is, give it a try. You are out a whole $3 or so if it doesn't work for you. Not much of a risk the way I see it.

Gritsak said:

I've personally not had luck coiling the line on top of the keg. Instead, i coil it around the keg itself, mostly towards the base. So far this has worked really well for me. However, i do use 10ft lines and this wouldn't work well for anything much shorter.

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I can see how that would be a better way to do it. What I was really trying to say is don't have the long hose extended out in the warm air or worse yet, in the sun where it could warm up considerably. IOW, keep the beer line as cool as possible however you can.

Catt22 said:

While Jamil and John certainly know more about brewing than I ever will, I think you have it right that the 0.17 and the 3/16 diameters are very close to the point that the difference will be negligible. I'm convinced that the benefit is primarily due to increasing the resistance for the length of the dip tube. It's not a whole lot, but it seems to be enough to make a significant difference in the pour. I think the dip tube is about 2 feet long, so with my 3 feet of beer line from the keg to the tap I have about 5 feet total which is what those guys seem to be recommending. All I can say is, give it a try. You are out a whole $3 or so if it doesn't work for you. Not much of a risk the way I see it.

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Agreed. Already picked up a spool to see how it influences the pour.

It works. Like I said it worked with my really short picnic tap. Clean your dip tube really well and sanitize it before you slide the tubing into it. It goes in hard sometimes depending on the dip tube and the bend in it. Both being wet with sanitizer helps it slide in better.

jmo88 said:

Agreed. Already picked up a spool to see how it influences the pour.

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Bobby_M said:

You could play around with reducing pressure for serving but that adds a whole layer of BS to the ease of kegging.

You can play around with the epoxy mixing inserts but it's also not THAT bad to coil up 10 feet of serving line. I have my coils done up with zip ties and they sit right on top of the kegs.

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More people should listen to this guy !
I have ten feet on my set up and six taps I set my co2 at 10 to 12 lbs and it is carbed in two weeks and pours great .
Pat

jmo88 said:

In the same podcast they are awfully persuasive in suggesting that 5-6' lines are perfect for the average setup. Of course this is contrary to a lot of my recent reading on this forum.

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I heard the same one. Used the calcs which all agreed then, like an idiot, cut all my lines to 6'. This was not helpful to me in any way

Most of the advice I read said 10', but I tried to save a few $$. Guess how that turned out? Yep, I bought all new 12' lines and the problem was solved. I could've done with the inserts, but I'd rather have it balanced and not have to deal with them.

How long does it take you guys to pour a pint? 10' vs shorter line with inserts.

jmo88 said:

How long does it take you guys to pour a pint? 10' vs shorter line with inserts.

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I have 12 ft lines, carbed at 11 psi, holding temp is 42.

It takes me about 14 seconds to fill a pint.

Just 3/16 line, no inserts

PS-If anyone does want 5-6 ft beer line lengths, PM me...I'll part with them for CHEEEAP.

My kit came with 5' lines. I put the inserts in the dip tube and force carbed the beer. It takes me less than 2 seconds to fill a pint, half of which is foam, with cold toweer lines and a cold faucet. Going to pick up 10' lines instead.

I didn't try it without inserts so I can't compare it, but it seems like increasing the line length will be the best solution

jmo88 said:

My kit came with 5' lines. I put the inserts in the dip tube and force carbed the beer. It takes me less than 2 seconds to fill a pint, half of which is foam, with cold toweer lines and a cold faucet. Going to pick up 10' lines instead.

I didn't try it without inserts so I can't compare it, but it seems like increasing the line length will be the best solution

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Sounds to me like your beer may be over-carbed and your serving pressure too high. IMO, two seconds to pour a pint is way too fast.

Serving pressure is for sure too high. Even with no inserts in my diptube and an 18" picnic tap I couldn't pour a pint that fast.

Catt22 said:

Sounds to me like your beer may be over-carbed and your serving pressure too high. IMO, two seconds to pour a pint is way too fast.

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I wouldn't say it's overcarbed. It was force carbed for about 4 minutes, gently rocking the beer on it's side at 20 PSI, vented and stabalized to 12psi at 38F. I hooked up some seltzer with 10' of new line on the other tap and it has much more reasonable pour.

Wow its coming out that fast at 12psi??? What's the ID of your serving line?

3/16. The seltzer is coming out at 12 seconds per pint with 10' lines and no insert. I'm gonna swap the lines to see how 10' does on the beer. The inserts still in though.

swapped the lines. Beautiful pour. 1" head and perfect carbonation with the same flow rate as the seltzer without the inserts. I'll post back when I get a second beer on tap and use 10' without inserts. So far it looks like the inserts have no affect, for me anyway.