How long do you Condition?

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Ringmaster

Ringmaster

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i'm reading John Palmer right now and it's my first time through but i'm a little confused about something.

He says "bad things" can happen after 3 weeks fermentation. But that some beer's like doppelbock need over 6 months to a year of conditioning to reach their "peak".

So i'm kind of confused.. Do i have to worry about fermenting longer then 3 weeks? something about yeast breaking down and creating off flavors? Do you just condition in bottles so there's less yeast and less to worry about?

And how long do you leave beer in the fridge? does anything chemistry wise still go on with the beer after i put it in the fridge? i had instructions that said to leave them in for 2 days.. haven't seen that mentioned anywhere. Would it be a good idea to leave them in for longer, or was this just to make them cold?

Just starting brewing, there's a lot of reading that goes into this :drunk:

Thanks for the help guys :mug:
 
He's talking about leaving it in the primary for longer than 3 weeks, some say longer than that and the yeast will break down and create off flavors. For longer fermentation times, rack it to a secondary fermentor and away from the yeast and sediment at the bottom of the primary.
 
conditioning is different than fermenting. I believe conditioning usually occurs in the bottle.
 
Yep, like Brad said, the overblown danger of leaving the beer sitting on all the yeast is what Palmer was referring to. A lot of people leave their beer in the fermenter for a month or more without any problems so it really isn't a major concern.

In practice, what most people do if they want to age a beer for a while they do the regular fermentation for maybe 2-6 weeks and then transfer the beer to a secondary vessel such as a carboy or keg and then let it age and condition there for months or even a year or more. Conditioning also happens in the bottles.

As far as the fridge goes, it does change a few things. First, your homebrew is a living creature filled with live yeast. So, over time your beer will change. The thing with ale yeast is they typically like to work in the 50-80 degree range. That's why when you're carbing up bottles you want to do it at room temp. Once you put the beer in the fridge the yeast will go dormant. Fridge temps also slow down the general aging process.

The second thing the fridge does, which is why you probably see it mentioned to leave them in there for a couple days is that as the yeast go dormant they drop out of suspension and fall to the bottom of the bottle. This helps you avoid pouring all the yeast into your glass and it also helps clear the beer. Not only that, but CO2 is more easily absorbed in cold temps so by keeping the beer cold for a few days you can help make sure most of the CO2 is in your beer and remains there giving you the expected carbonation level you expect.

:mug:
 
hmm i see, i've been leaving the beer in the fridge for a couple of weeks, should i not bother with this? maybe cut it back to a week? or just do as suggested only a couple of days?

The kit lied about a week of fermentation i don't want it to catch me off guard about the fridge too.

Thanks!
 
Ringmaster said:
hmm i see, i've been leaving the beer in the fridge for a couple of weeks, should i not bother with this? maybe cut it back to a week? or just do as suggested only a couple of days?

The kit lied about a week of fermentation i don't want it to catch me off guard about the fridge too.

Thanks!
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If the beer tastes good, just leave it in the fridge. It won't hurt anything. It just means it won't change much in terms of flavor while it's in there. The one bonus is that leaving it in the fridge that long means you'll usually have very clear beer.

But if you still want to let your beer age and evolve, then leave them out of the fridge until you're ready to drink them.

When I bottled I pretty much just left the beer in the basement and put 5-10 bottles in the fridge at a time when I knew I'd want them. No sense in filling the whole fridge. I wanted room for some commercial brews as well. :D

3997103440_ed5c2c0636_z.jpg
 
I agree that, in most cases, that long a fermentation/letting is set, isn't all that bad. So far my beers are setting three weeks to a month in the primary before bottling. I've got one weiss that was 3 weeks in the primary and two weeks in the secondary with no off flavors. As long as you're not pulling the airlock off every to look inside (hense letting CO2 out and oyxgen in and possibly other contaminants) and storing it at a relatively stable mid-range temps you'll be good in my opinion. I've read several debates about lysis but not run into it myself... at least nothing noticible...
 
You can really condition using whatever methods your equipment allows for. As others have noted, what Palmer is talking about is the danger of leaving the beer on the initial yeast cake for a prolonged period of time.

If you have a spare carboy, then you can easily move the beer over to that after primary fermentation is done and leave it for a long period of time without there being any issues, at least with the kind of big beers you're talking about (Doppelbocks and the like) and given moderate, controlled temps.

If you don't have the spare carboy, you can also just make the beer however you normally would, bottle it, and then let it condition in the bottles. Some breweries even run with bottle conditioning, I'm thinking of Rogue's Imperial Stout which used to specifically have a note on the side: "do not open for 1 year." People argue that bulk conditioning is better, but as a small brewer, if you don't have the space or equipment, then doing it in the bottle will still work fine.
 
Well bottle conditioning sounds easier.. hmm, maybe i'll leave a bottle to sit for an extra week and see what that does for it.

I'm a little worried about this batch i messed up in my brewing process a couple times, so i won't even know if it's any good for another few weeks, i might try the first bottle a couple weeks ahead of schedule though just to find out.

Thanks for all the help guys! this forum ROCKS!

oh and nice collection marubozo, my fridge just has food in it.
 
I'm facing a similar dilemna myself - needing to set my dubbel up for a nice long nap, tucked away somewhere dark and reasonably temperature stable.

I was considering getting a tap-a-draft setup but I am nowhere near ready to drink this beer.

Am I thinking it's okay to just rack it off to an empty carboy and forget about it until it's carbonation time?
 
Mermaid said:
I'm facing a similar dilemna myself - needing to set my dubbel up for a nice long nap, tucked away somewhere dark and reasonably temperature stable.

I was considering getting a tap-a-draft setup but I am nowhere near ready to drink this beer.

Am I thinking it's okay to just rack it off to an empty carboy and forget about it until it's carbonation time?
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Well, I don't know what exactly you're thinking or not :)D), but if you are thinking that, it's a fine think to think. Lots of people do that. If you leave it in secondary for more than a couple of months, though, you might want to pitch some extra yeast when bottling.

As someone else said, you could also just bottle it and put those bottles away for safekeeping. Either way you're good.
 
Palefire said:
Well, I don't know what exactly you're thinking or not :)D), but if you are thinking that, it's a fine think to think. Lots of people do that. If you leave it in secondary for more than a couple of months, though, you might want to pitch some extra yeast when bottling.

As someone else said, you could also just bottle it and put those bottles away for safekeeping. Either way you're good.
Click to expand...

:ban: Yeah, sometimes I think too much and sometimes not enough.

My biggest worry is temperature control.

I'll probably pull it off the yeast and put it in a secondary then I can tuck it away someplace where I'll have some control over temperature until the summer months have passed (8 weeks tops), then bottle it / mini-keg it until it's ready to drink.
 
Also something to realize is that Palmer has changed his view about it being a bad thing leaving the beer on the yeast that three weeks in more up to date versions of the book. The online edition is pretty out dated. At lot has changed, and much of it because of discussions on here. This is the most up to date discussion on THAT topic,

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

Now as to bottle conditioning...

The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up. And still needed another 6 months to condition.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience." ;)
 
I read what John and Jamil had to say and I have a couple of questions. When you leave it in a primary for 4 weeks, can I use a plastic primary? I was told those can still allow oxygen in after some time.

If you can use a plastic primary, why wouldn't I just ferment in my bottling bucket, then just bottle after 4 weeks? Then I wouldn't need to do any transfers? The only reason I could think of is it would be difficult to mix in the sugar.
 
taa800 said:
I read what John and Jamil had to say and I have a couple of questions. When you leave it in a primary for 4 weeks, can I use a plastic primary? I was told those can still allow oxygen in after some time.

If you can use a plastic primary, why wouldn't I just ferment in my bottling bucket, then just bottle after 4 weeks? Then I wouldn't need to do any transfers? The only reason I could think of is it would be difficult to mix in the sugar.
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The bucket question has been answered in that thread, many times. I've done several months in buckets with no problems.

The problem with bottling from a primary or secondary instead of using a bottling bucket, is that since you have patiently gone and let your beer settle and clear, in order to mix the priming solution and beer effectively, you would have to stir it in the carboy..which would a) kick up all that nice sediment you have patiently let fall, b) possibly oxydize the beer.

It really defeats the purpose of both a long primary/no secondary or a secondary if you have to stir up all the nice sediment you patiently waited to settle just so you can have consistent carbonation.
 
neovox said:
For me, this is one of the hardest parts of brewing. :cool:
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This is my standard answer to that....it's a wee bit out dated in terms of what I have on hand now, but you'll get the picture.

revvy said:
I sort of understand, you want to drink your beers, now.

But honestly, the difference between good beer, and great beer, is simply a few more weeks.

When you brew a lot, and start to build a pipeline, you are used to waiting, because you have batches at different stages, fermenting, secondarying, lagering, bottle conditioning and drinking.

And you can't drink everything at once anyway.

For example right now I have a red and an ipa that I am drinking currently. I have a chocolate mole porter that is sort of coming into it's own, that I am entering in a contest the first week of Feb.

I have a few bottles of my year old Belgian Strong Dark, that is still aging, and I pull one out every now and then.

I Have a vienna lager in a secondary lagering for at least another two weeks, if not more.

I am going to probably bottle my Belgian wit this weekend, or I may give it another week to clear, but more than likely I will bottle sooner rather than later since it's coming up on a month in Primary, and I'm on a wit kick right now (in fact I've been buying wits lately rather than drink my red and ipa.)

I also have a 2.5 gallon barelywine that I partigyle brewed on New Years eve which more than likely will get racked to a secondary for a few months, and then bottle conditioned for a few more.

The second runnings, which is sort of a dark amber ale, I will more than likely bottle soon, I'm not sure. I really haven't looked at it and the barelywine since I brewed it.

And I am thinking about brewing something this weekend, maybe another lager.....

As you cansee I have beers at all stages or fermentation, so if something needs a few extra weeks to carb, or condition, I'm not going to sweat it. I'm about quality beer anyway. If nothings not to my liking/readiness, then I go buy some.

I've only ever made one mild, most of my beers are 1.060 or higher, so they're going to take longer.

I'm not out to win any races, I'm out to make tasty beer.

Hell I once found a bottle in the back of my fridge that had been there 3 months. It was pretty amazing; crystal clear and the cake in the bottom was so tight that you could upend the bottle over the glass and not one drop of yeast fell in the glass.

It won't take long.
Click to expand...

:mug:
 
Revvy said:
Now as to bottle conditioning...

The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up. And still needed another 6 months to condition.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience." ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update Revvy.

If my ankle isn't bothering me too much this weekend I'll rack it off to a secondary and put it back in it's cool, air condtioned resting spot until the time comes when I no longer need the A/C to keep things cool in here. (Tomorrow marks 3 weeks in the primary... ) I do see some merit to using a secondary in this case, particularly since I have a ton of trub in the bottom of the primary.

By "cool" I mean between 65-70 (the "basement" here is more or less at ground level, so it's really not all that cellar-like). It's been impossibly warm and muggy here in Boston all summer.

When it's cool enough outside (and inside) to store bottles without risking excessive temperature-related funk, then I can tuck these darlings away while they carb up.

I launched into this particular batch with the idea that I wasn't going to crack the first one until at least the end of November (just to give it time to mellow out) with it not truly being "ready" until sometime this winter (or longer - that's not up to me). The alcohol was very pronounced after it's first week - it's definitely going to need some conditioning time.
 

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