Primary Fermentation Strain for Orval Clone

I got the itch to try this one again. Last year's Belgian didn't go so well. It was some Black Diamond brewing beer from BYO that used 3787, and I put some Brett (don't recall the strain) in secondary for a month, and I just didn't have the patience for it.

This I am determined to have the patience. I was looking around the boards and people were suggesting a platinum strain of WL510. Well, I can't find that, the current Platinum strain around that number is Antwerp.

Basically I am looking for a good fermentation schedule and yeasts/cultures for it.

Also the recipe I have calls for Cane (beet) Sugar, is corn sugar okay? I don't think I've ever seen cane sugar around.

The Wyeast equivalent of the Orval primary yeast is 3522 - Belgian Ardennes. Brewmasters warehouse has it in stock.

Beet/Cane sugar is the same as plain 'ol table sugar. Depending on who is manufacturing it it could be coming from either cane or beet but for brewing purposes should be the same.

I don't have the link handy with me, but Jamil gave a recipe on Brewstrong one episode....basically primary with the ardennes until fermentation is over, then secondary a month at about 59* with brett brux. Then bottle carb to 3-4 volumes.

I just bottled an orval clone 2 weeks ago so I'm waiting for the results

Hope this helps!

Music to my ears, those are the exact yeasts I ordered from BMWarehouse.

Is a month @ 59 long enough for the brett brux to work? I've seen stuff say 6-9 months.

Bottle carbing 3-4 volumes....do I really need heavy bottles, or is that an image thing. I would think the caps would go before the bottles.

snowveil said:

The Wyeast equivalent of the Orval primary yeast is 3522 - Belgian Ardennes.

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No 3522 is Achouffe, the Orval blend is Wyeast 3789-PC Trappist Blend.

snowveil said:

Beet/Cane sugar is the same as plain 'ol table sugar. Depending on who is manufacturing it it could be coming from either cane or beet but for brewing purposes should be the same.

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Correct, it all depends on where the sugar was manufactured.

petep1980 said:

Music to my ears, those are the exact yeasts I ordered from BMWarehouse.

Is a month @ 59 long enough for the brett brux to work? I've seen stuff say 6-9 months.

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Jamil says 1 month @ 59 so that is where I would start. Taste it at a month and see if it needs longer. Brett takes some time to start and can continue to go for months.

petep1980 said:

Bottle carbing 3-4 volumes....do I really need heavy bottles, or is that an image thing. I would think the caps would go before the bottles.

Click to expand...

The 12oz bottles that you are use to (read cheap) aren't safe at high pressure, especially reused bottles. I limit myself to 3.2lbs of pressure for these bottles. I've had bottle bombs and it sucks. It sucks to be standing over them when it happens.

-bn

Houblon said:

No 3522 is Achouffe

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3522 is not Achouffe, 3522 is Belgian Ardennes

see Wyeast 3522

Houblon said:

the Orval blend is Wyeast 3789-PC Trappist Blend.

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3789-PC Trappist is a blend with brett

I'm 98% sure that this is not the yeast to use. Ferment first then let brett do the work for Orval.

-bn

Where do you get "heavier bottles"? I can't afford to drink 2 cases of Orval for them...

I ordered the 3522 and the white labs brett brux. So, that is what I'll do.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

petep1980 said:

Where do you get "heavier bottles"? I can't afford to drink 2 cases of Orval for them...

I ordered the 3522 and the white labs brett brux. So, that is what I'll do.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

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The heavier Belgian 750ml bottles will work. Champagne bottles will work. The thicker German wheat beer bottles should also be able to stand stronger pressure up to around 5 volumes. Belgian 330ml bottles will also work.

BeernuT100 said:

3522 is not Achouffe, 3522 is Belgian Ardennes

see Wyeast 3522

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Haha, here you go>
http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm
Achouffe = WLP 550
Achouffe = 3522 Belgian Ardennes
Where is Achouffe? the Ardennes

BeernuT100 said:

3789-PC Trappist is a blend with brett

I'm 98% sure that this is not the yeast to use. Ferment first then let brett do the work for Orval.

-bn

Click to expand...

My mistake its>>>
WLP510 Bastogne Belgian Ale >>Orval

I just used the dregs of many Orval bottles as the primary yeast, BLAM says its re-yeast at bottling with primary yeast.

Houblon said:

Haha, here you go>
http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm
Achouffe = WLP 550
Achouffe = 3522 Belgian Ardennes
Where is Achouffe? the Ardennes




My mistake its>>>
WLP510 Bastogne Belgian Ale >>Orval

I just used the dregs of many Orval bottles as the primary yeast, BLAM says its re-yeast at bottling with primary yeast.

Click to expand...

Good luck finding 510 in stock though.

wlp 510 Belgian Bastogne is the Orval yeast. I don't think there is a wyeast equivalent.

3522 Belgian Ardennes is the Achouffe yeast. I my experience this strain (Achouffe) is very peppery phenolic. I expect the Orval strain is more neutral. Both should make excellent beer.

Must be my mistake on the 3522....I thought that Jamil said that was the correct wyeast strain but maybe he was wrong. Who knows.

1 month in the secondary with brett definitely gave a lot more character than I expected. You'll also (according to jamil) want to dryhop this with 1oz styrian goldings the last week of the secondary.

I've read that Orval has multiple strains of brett..not sure how true this is. I would ferment with whatever primary yeast they use then dump in dregs from a couple bottles of Orval. This will probably give you with a more authentic character than with an isolated commercial strain.

510 or 3522 is what Jamil has listed (pg 214, Brewing Classic Styles). 510 is also listed in Brewing like a Monk pg 252. Either will work, with 510 being what I would use if I could find it.

I assume that 3522 is not the exact Orval yeast as White Labs also has an Achouffe strain (WLP550). Brew Like a Monk only lists 510 as the Orval strain. In addition, the yeast description charts differ somewhat between the two.

WLP510
Medium Flocculation, Medium-High Attenuation % (75-85%)
Temp range/ Flavor profile
High (75-85* F) Spicy, acidic, solvent
Medium (67-75* F) Spicy, acidic, clean
Low (58-66* F) Clean, crisp, light phenol

3522
High Flocculation, 72-76% attenuation
75-85* F; Clove, bubblegum, tart, phenolic
65-75* F; clean, malty

Stan notes that though these yeasts may hale from these breweries, it does not mean they are the same as strains change and evolve.

Orval pitches their yeast for primary fermentation (pitched at 57, may rise to 72) then repitches the same yeast WITH their brett strain (probably not straight brux, so the idea of harvesting dregs from a few Orval bottles is probably a good one) for 3 weeks at 59.

They referment in the bottle with primary yeast for 5 weeks at 59. They centrifuge but the brett remains and will continue to ferment.

All info from Brew Like a Monk, Stan Hieronymus

Hope it helps and good luck.

Brew with what you ordered then brew another with 510 and Orval dregs and post with the differences!!!

Primary for 5 weeks at 59???? That seems long. 3522 doesn't look like it does 59 (I'm sure it does, but just looking at the specs).

I'm thinking the brett brux and the dregs of 2 bottles or so in secondary is extremely do-able.

petep1980 said:

Primary for 5 weeks at 59???? That seems long. 3522 doesn't look like it does 59 (I'm sure it does, but just looking at the specs).

I'm thinking the brett brux and the dregs of 2 bottles or so in secondary is extremely do-able.

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No they primary for like 4 days....I primary all my brews for 3-6 weeks though. They repitch with the primary strain and brett for 3 weeks then centrifuge and referment with fresh yeast in the bottle for 5 weeks. A lot of people having great success with big Belgians are taking months (6-12), especially with the brett.

Patience will make a much better beer

I see Page 57 in Brew Like a monk. This "new yeast" must be some proprietary blend with Brett Brux, so to do that we're doing dregs of two bottles and the Brett Brux to try and match it?

Then it secondaries for 3 weeks.

Then you bottle with the first strain again? I have never used a bottling yeast? How do you do that to make sure the wort is properly saturated with yeasts so all the bottles get some?

The brett takes some time to really come forward if added at bottling, also depends on the freshness of the Orval.

I had plenty of fresh from the brewery bottles and used them as the primary yeast, within a few weeks the brett was coming thur in a very nice aroma. At that point I kegged the beer and its now sitting in a closet waiting till a spot opens in the fridge, samples taste great.

Orvalish >



Trip # 2 to Orval