ALL beers - extract AND all grain taste bad. Please help me with new suggestions

I'm actually 20 minutes from Bells. I was number 200 cuz my gf had to tag to kzoo and it took her 1.5 hours to get around!

4 months I can see that =)

I'm actually having problems with my wort from Bells. Got it home, boiled up an apple crips style ale, cooled to 65 pitched dry safale 04 oxygenated with o2, and set in the ferm chamber at 64.

This was Saturday about 8pm. I have zero activity as of 10 minutes ago. About 67 hours...

Tempted to throw some notty in there when I get home.

I re-hydrate my yeast before I pitch it into the wort, haven't had any issues yet its bubbling like crazy and I pitched my yeast around 8pm on sunday.

UPDATE!!!

I decided to hydro the bells wort because I saw a small ring on the bucket when I opened it up. It already fermented!! 1.014 and tasted DELISH! All be damned.

SO, I now know wort made by someone else is fine, so it isn't anything after the mash!!
I still have a dead guy clone in the closet to test to see if I completely got rid of the flavor or if it is something in my process before the boil.

This is such great news. My first beer I am looking forward to drinking.

Slash,

Hmm. That's interesting. You don't get that taste when you use someone elses wort, but you DO get the taste when you use extracts.

You don't really mash the extracts do you?

If the problem was in your mashing I would think your extract brews would have tasted just fine.

Was this the first brew you oxygenated really well?

BlackJaqueJanaviac said:

Slash,

Hmm. That's interesting. You don't get that taste when you use someone elses wort, but you DO get the taste when you use extracts.

You don't really mash the extracts do you?

If the problem was in your mashing I would think your extract brews would have tasted just fine.

Was this the first brew you oxygenated really well?

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This was my second oxygenated and temp controlled beer. The first one that is all mine is still conditioning in the primary, I have not tasted yet but I think it will be great. I have the same logic as you here, if I had the taste on extracts I should be able to rule out my mash.

So by using Bell's wort to rule out my boil and fermentation, I think I can safely say the problem is fixed and it was either lack of oxygen or lack of controlled temp. Or maybe some of both, I will test one batch without pure oxygen at some point.


I still think lack of temp control is big one though. I know I would pitch in the 70's and just placing it in a 60 degree closet was still allowing large swings in temp.

Don't most people just shake the beer still? Yeast makers claim dry yeast doesn't need oxygen at all to work... Something about nutrients already built into the pack?

You should have seen the dance I did when I tasted the Bell's wort and it didn't have the off flavor! hah. The joy after brewing an off flavor for 9 months to gettin a good one was such a relief.

I'll be watching this thread to see how it turns out.

While I don't think I'm capable of winning any homebrew contests - I don't notice anything "wrong" with the beer I brew. Other than sanitation, I'm not really that careful. I pitch at 70 and leave it ferment in my 70 degree basement. Haven't needed to dump any beer yet. Nor have I needed to buy beer.

But my goal is to brew beer that is better than the "mass produced" pilsner, but at a fraction of the cost of microbrew. So far so good.

But if there are simple ways to improve my brewing I'm always interested in the advice. I won't be buying a fridge for a ferm chamber but I just may try wrapping it in a wet towel.

Many have said (as have I), that temp control is the ONE most effective thing you can do to improve your beer. While you get a good result, you might get a great result if you ferment with wort temps (not ambient) closer to 65F

Hang Glider said:

Many have said (as have I), that temp control is the ONE most effective thing you can do to improve your beer. While you get a good result, you might get a great result if you ferment with wort temps (not ambient) closer to 65F

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I'm starting to see the light man... I wonder if it's the temp swing more than the actual temp. As in worse to go from 65 to 75 during fermenting than to sit at 75 the whole time. Before I thought staying under 80 was key, but I was always under that and ick.

I'm glad you started this thread, I think I need to start working on a fermentation chamber. I have currently started using the swamp cooler method but it is a pain to try and regulate temps. After reading all 9 pages I think the beers I have made that weren't great were a result of too high of fermentation temps.

subscribed, and thanks.

moved my carboys to my basement last night to give them a ferm area that should be about 5 degrees cooler than the main floor in my house. Moving them to secondary fermenters on sunday.

So you think the difference in temp between where you pitched and where they are sitting fermenting was just too big??

I would think as long as the temp your pitching the yeast at is within the right limits, it shouldn't matter, even if it is 10 degrees warmer than the temp your going to let it sit and ferment at, but I am curious to see results of further testing

Subscribed. I want to hear the end! Great thread.

chairbornrangerx said:

moved my carboys to my basement last night to give them a ferm area that should be about 5 degrees cooler than the main floor in my house. Moving them to secondary fermenters on sunday.

So you think the difference in temp between where you pitched and where they are sitting fermenting was just too big??

I would think as long as the temp your pitching the yeast at is within the right limits, it shouldn't matter, even if it is 10 degrees warmer than the temp your going to let it sit and ferment at, but I am curious to see results of further testing

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I only have educated guesses at the moment, until I test my first oxygenated and temp controlled batch with my wort instead of Bell's, and run 1 test without oxygenating, but:

When I rack my test batch, and if it does not have the off flavor, I changed NOTHING other than pitch temp, stabilizing the temp of fermentation and using pure o2 instead of shaking.

There are arguments both ways that show either is not critical, but I think I'll be able to show otherwise. At least to a picky palate.

I've read some strains can produce fusel alcohols over as low as 72, I think pitching above that and not getting it cool enough fast enough was huge. This could produce the flavor I get early on then drop down to normal temps and be fine from there on out. So it stayed subtle.

They have been drinkable. I've taken growlers to beer club meetings and they go pretty quick, but I can definitely tell the off flavor does not belong, and is only in a few commercial beers I've tried. (very lightly though) and personally I find it a bit repulsive.

Bit more confused now... The Dead guy clone seems to be almost worse than the others... Which would lead me to think my mash could be the issues because the bell's wort tasted good at sample, but my extract had it so mmmm.

This batch was aerated with pure o2, pitched at 62-63 and held at 65 for 4 weeks. Pitched 2 packets of dry yeast so def not under pitched. The beer poured with a head, that was surprising. But the hot alcohol bitter bite was more pronounced. It came out lighter and thinner than expected too. nothing like dead guy AT ALL.

Now I'm worried about the wort from Bell's... Will know more in a couple of weeks when I go to bottle that.

dammit

ok also the cloudiest beer I've made... let a glass sit for a while and while it was still bubbling, it didn't clear at all.

You willing to send out a sample bottle? I'd be willing to taste it and give my $.02, maybe there is a Beer Judge looking at this thread that is willing to do the same?

wyzazz said:

You willing to send out a sample bottle? I'd be willing to taste it and give my $.02, maybe there is a Beer Judge looking at this thread that is willing to do the same?

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Yea man. let me get my apple crumbale bottled up to test a theory first here...

If the apple one comes out without this flavor, I might have an idea... It is a reach because I see people do this all the time but...

My 2 beers so far that have had the LEAST of this off flavor have been 2 very low IBU beers. oatmeal stout with 1 ounce at the boil, and this apple one with an ounce spread out. My Apfelwein did not have this flavor either and it had zero hops...

I use a false bottom in the BK, but I use pellets and a tons makes it into my primary... I primary for 4+ weeks.. Could this be part of it? The trub has this flavor I detect horribly. Thinking I need to try a low IBU batch with leaf hops and test now.

Should I be racking to a secondary after a weekish to get it off the hops?

I also electric boil, could the hops be scorching on the elements??

Dang this quote from Yooper in another thread has me doubting the element is burning anything... Back to leaving the beer on too much hop material? mmmm Doesn't seem like that would be it..

"Me too. Well, not my whole brewing life- only all-electric for about a year and a half. But my rig was in BYO a while back also.

Never once have I had my wort scorch. In fact, while my water is heating, I can touch my element without burning myself. It's hot, sure, but not "burning hot"."

I apologize for the dumb question - I've read through the entire thread and I didn't see the answer - what's your brewkettle like?

TheSlash said:

Yea man. let me get my apple crumbale bottled up to test a theory first here...

If the apple one comes out without this flavor, I might have an idea... It is a reach because I see people do this all the time but...

My 2 beers so far that have had the LEAST of this off flavor have been 2 very low IBU beers. oatmeal stout with 1 ounce at the boil, and this apple one with an ounce spread out. My Apfelwein did not have this flavor either and it had zero hops...

I use a false bottom in the BK, but I use pellets and a tons makes it into my primary... I primary for 4+ weeks.. Could this be part of it? The trub has this flavor I detect horribly. Thinking I need to try a low IBU batch with leaf hops and test now.

Should I be racking to a secondary after a weekish to get it off the hops?

I also electric boil, could the hops be scorching on the elements??

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Maybe try a "Hop Spider" to see if that helps? I use a plate chiller so I absolutely must keep the hop sludge from making it to the chiller.

Kerin said:

I apologize for the dumb question - I've read through the entire thread and I didn't see the answer - what's your brewkettle like?

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For the HLT and Brew Kettle I use the SS 9 gallon pot from Adventures in Homebrewing with 2 full port welds. I have a thermo in one and a SS ball valve on the other. BK has a stainless false bottom about 1.5 inches up with slot cuts in it. The slots are probably big enough to pass a dime through. With pellet hops, mine turn to green sludge basically, even a super fine filter doesnt seem to catch all of it. And the filter clogs up nonstop.

I whirlpool and drain from under the false bottom, but I still get a lot in the fermenter.

I see people claim they just dump the BK into the primary though, but maybe they rack off the trub and not let it sit in the primary for 4-6 weeks?

wyzazz said:

Maybe try a "Hop Spider" to see if that helps? I use a plate chiller so I absolutely must keep the hop sludge from making it to the chiller.

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Been tempted to do that, but using heatsticks makes it harder, especially with an IC and 2 heatsticks in there. Plus the utilization drop worries me.

Need to experiment like this though. Just getting costly.

I am so lost now. I bottled the bell's wort today. The one that fermented out in 4ish days and tasted wonderful. It was a light colored mellow tasting holiday beer. After checking the gravity at day 5 I blanketed it with co2 and closed the bucket back up. Put it back in the ferm chamber and it sat there for 3 more weeks. 4 total weeks.

I open it today and it is pretty dark and I believe the smell was a acidic cidery smell. I tried tasting it 3-4 times and I couldnt bring myself to swollow it. It was repulsive on the tongue. Harsh, codery, acidic, and just foul.

I bottled anyway since everything was out, but no way this could mellow in 2 weeks for a comp huh? It tastes pretty strong so I'm hoping I just boiled off too much and it needs time.

Has anyone tasted the beer @ 4 weeks and couldnt even choke down a hydro sample and have it turn out ok?

Am I looking at 6 months? a year>? Ever?


I didn't really detect my off flavor, but I didn't get to give it a fair taste. Probably over powered anyways.

Why not try a glass fermenter? A scratch can Harbour bacteria. Also the only time I ever tried a plastic carboy was also the only time a got a moldy batch. So oxidation is possible. Is it an actual Better Bottle or a similar plastic look-alike?

I really don't have the experience to answer you either way, Slash, but look at this upside - you have an excellent opportunity here to take a bottle of the beer to someone at the comp who is familiar with what the beer -should- taste like and ask them what might have gone wrong.

I had a strange thought, though, so more experienced people should feel free to shoot this down. Since you're sharing equipment with a friend who doesnt have the problem, maybe the issue is closer to home than one might expect. Maybe you have a body PH issue, acidic skin oils or something similar? There are people who do have numbers that fall outside the norm enough to corrode jewelry, so affecting brewing might not be in the realm of fantasy

subcribed to this thread! I want to find out what's going on!

First brew day is down in the books!! Glad too cause man it smelled burnt almost, no I didn't scorch it cause there was no any thing on the bottom of the pot.

grathan said:

Why not try a glass fermenter? A scratch can Harbour bacteria. Also the only time I ever tried a plastic carboy was also the only time a got a moldy batch. So oxidation is possible. Is it an actual Better Bottle or a similar plastic look-alike?

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Of my 2 most recent batches, 1 was in an Ale Pail and one was in a Better Bottle.

The better bottle was thoroughly cleaned with oxy and hot water, then sanitized.

I do have 2 new 3gallon glass carboys I was going to play with next.

Kerin said:

I really don't have the experience to answer you either way, Slash, but look at this upside - you have an excellent opportunity here to take a bottle of the beer to someone at the comp who is familiar with what the beer -should- taste like and ask them what might have gone wrong.

I had a strange thought, though, so more experienced people should feel free to shoot this down. Since you're sharing equipment with a friend who doesnt have the problem, maybe the issue is closer to home than one might expect. Maybe you have a body PH issue, acidic skin oils or something similar? There are people who do have numbers that fall outside the norm enough to corrode jewelry, so affecting brewing might not be in the realm of fantasy

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Not sure where you read that, but I'm not really sharing any equipment.

I'll open one in 2 weeks right before the competition just to check for carb, but I really don't think I can turn this in unless I write DO NOT DRINK, just swirl it around and see what went wrong. Even then, I am more interested in the off flavor I usually get.

This one was sever acidic green apple flavor. When my gfriend walked into the kitchen after I bottled she said, what is that smell, its like bad apples.

So either it is very alcoholic still, or somehow oxygenated. Even with a blanket of c02 /shrug.

TheSlash said:

This one was sever acidic green apple flavor. When my gfriend walked into the kitchen after I bottled she said, what is that smell, its like bad apples.

So either it is very alcoholic still, or somehow oxygenated. Even with a blanket of c02 /shrug.

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Sounds like a lacto infection, take a sniff of Apple Cider Vinegar, does it smell like that?

wyzazz said:

Sounds like a lacto infection, take a sniff of Apple Cider Vinegar, does it smell like that?

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That's what I was just reading. I have noticed fruit flies lately, just not sure when it could have happened...

5 days after it being in the fermentor, it was about done fermenting and tasted wonderful. If a fruit fly made it in at that 1 minute windows when I was checking gravity, would there still be enough fermentables to serverly effect the whole 3 gallons?

If it is lacto, then there is no aging huh? Just pitch all 24 bottles?

It would be my luck that the 1 batch from someone else's wort would be the infected batch so I couldnt determine any results.....

TheSlash said:

That's what I was just reading. I have noticed fruit flies lately, just not sure when it could have happened...

5 days after it being in the fermentor, it was about done fermenting and tasted wonderful. If a fruit fly made it in at that 1 minute windows when I was checking gravity, would there still be enough fermentables to serverly effect the whole 3 gallons?

If it is lacto, then there is no aging huh? Just pitch all 24 bottles?

It would be my luck that the 1 batch from someone else's wort would be the infected batch so I couldnt determine any results.....

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It all depends, my buddy has a beer that got infected with lacto that tastes great! Nice sour flavor like a Flanders. You could always ride it out and check it in a few months to see how the sourness develops.

wyzazz said:

It all depends, my buddy has a beer that got infected with lacto that tastes great! Nice sour flavor like a Flanders. You could always ride it out and check it in a few months to see how the sourness develops.

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What if it is acetobacter from fruit flies though? Since we have those, if one got in. I just read that acetobacter turns alcohol into vineger. Will it continue in the bottle and cause bottle bombs? Now I'm worried.

1 fruit fly... don't think so. had much worse fall in. thermometer, rubber o-ring, spoon, bottom of turkey baster.

I had a lacto infected pale ale (tracked to bottling cane) that with a few months of aging came out as a wonderful sour ale, had a solid strawberry flavor/sour. saved a few bottles just to resour another batch! Just haven't had the batch to do it on yet.

starrfish said:

1 fruit fly... don't think so. had much worse fall in. thermometer, rubber o-ring, spoon, bottom of turkey baster.

I had a lacto infected pale ale (tracked to bottling cane) that with a few months of aging came out as a wonderful sour ale, had a solid strawberry flavor/sour. saved a few bottles just to resour another batch! Just haven't had the batch to do it on yet.

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The batch sure didn't have any signs of an infection. Nothing on the top of the beer but a few specs that were there at 5 days too.

IF it was acetobacter you'd know it. ever find one of those half full bottles your friend stuck behind the couch or under a table in college? fruit flies made a home.... that's acetobacter. very sour, very vinegary... happens quick too. lacto has a more mellow aroma. acetobacter also leaves a scum. I haven't seen a lacto leave any residue. very clear dry beer with no head retention.

Ok, you got me curious. I just chilled one of my last lactos from 2 years ago. aroma malty/sour. tart on tounge, goes more to raisin/strawberry mid way, tart puckerig aftertaste. a bit cloying, but not bad.
has gone from a summer easy drinker to a more complex beer with the raisin, could be some light oxidation coming in. I have 1 left to drink and one use to sour.

So I opened one of the bottles of this horrid beer and sadly nothing faded. It did carb, nothing blew up, but it reaks of cider. I tried tasting a sip but it makes me want to throw up.

So I've gone back the beginning. This weekend I went and grabbed 3 pounds light DME, 2 ounces Cascade whole leaf and some notty.

I did a 1/2 batch to really focus on the process. Cleaning and sanitizing the crap out of everything. Using mostly new gear.

Used a different pot, and used Distilled water, boiled it, added my 60 minute and 1/2 the DME, did a 45minute hop, and at the 30min I added the rest of the DME, then hopped at 15m irish moss and flameout. Whirlpooled, covered and put in an ice bath so I didn't have to use my copper chiller. After it was at 65 I used a new siphon and new hose to siphon it to my new 3gallon glass carboy. Aerated for 45 seconds with pure o2. (hopefully not too much for a 2.5gal batch) Hydrated yeast in distilled and pitched. Lagged for about 24 hours (prolly all the o2) and now has a 1inch krausen.

Tasted good going into the fermenter, and has a tight cap with 1 inch blw off...

If this comes out with the off flavor, then I'm 100% lost and helpless =)

Will update.

Beer should be a simple blandish pale ale, 1.048 going to the fermenter, so should come out around 5% and 50ibu.

TheSlash said:

If this comes out well, then I'm 100% lost and helpless =)

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(updated)



no, no...it's quite simple really. For whatever reason, YOU will need new equipment every time...

How's your bottling process?

arch1tect said:

How's your bottling process?

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I keg 99% of the time.

I taste this when I open my fermenter though.

I'm starting to taste every step now, and this last batch I paid real close attention to how it tasted going into the carboy. Tasted quite good going in. Little malty and a sharp hop bite, but nothing bad.

It would seem the only thing that could go wrong on this little batch is sanitation huh?

I mean, 3 pounds DME, 2 ounces cascade, and notty, with distilled water, ice bath chilled.

If it tastes bad I would think it HAS to be other bacteria.... right?

But if it is good, I need to slowly add items/process back 1 by 1 and find the culprit.

I did just discover that Starsan is not supposed to be cloudy. That means it is reacting with something in the water and neutralizing...

I always used tap water with starsan and it has always been cloudy... I also stored it cloudy. SO hopefully the issue was the sanitizer wasn't working well. I used distilled water this time for the starsan.