What is this, about 1.33oz per addition for a 5 gallon batch? I'm doing my wedding IPA this weekend and had read about this in "Hops" by Stan H.. I have a recipe that recently took 1st in IPAs at a competition but want to try some new aroma techniques; a 170F hop stand, multiple dry-hop additions, and possibly sticking below this threshold for efficiency's sake.
Pliny the Younger Clone
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What is this, about 1.33oz per addition for a 5 gallon batch? I'm doing my wedding IPA this weekend and had read about this in "Hops" by Stan H.. I have a recipe that recently took 1st in IPAs at a competition but want to try some new aroma techniques; a 170F hop stand, multiple dry-hop additions, and possibly sticking below this threshold for efficiency's sake.
scottland
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Ya, 1.5-1.6oz is ~ 1/2lb per bbl. If you want the most bang for your buck, do 3-4 additions of roughly 1.5oz each.
How do you like that dry hopper? You are dry hopping in the keg? Does it drain pretty easily as you are pulling it out?
scottland
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Ok Scottland, you have brewed PTY twice with different recipes. As I recall, the second attempt used a two temperature mash, but had a higher FG. Given what you have learned, what would your third attempt look like, with respect to mash and ingredients.
scottland
Well-Known Member
Well, I went ahead and I took a taste off the cold, but flat keg last night. It's nearly spot on, and the tiny differences now, may very well change by the time it's conditioned for a week or so.
At the moment: it appears to be about .5SRM too light, the bitterness is pinch more evident in the finish, and it could have used a hint more Centennial. That's my initial, green-beer-tasting-guess. As I said, by the time the beer clears up, carbs up, and conditions some, that could easily change.
Bear in mind, I'm really digging to find differences. It smells and tastes identical. I handed it to my fiance, and her response was: "Yup, that's definitely it."
Brewing it again, I'd go back to 1.33lbs Dextrose, and drop the 2-row accordingly to get the FG back down to 1.006-1.008. I'd still mash at like 146-148. Possibly still a step mash. The goal obviously is maximum attenuation.
The color is really close, and it's too early to tell what it will look like once it clears up. It might need like 2oz more C40 -- so like 9oz maybe? And for the dry hops, I might have added .25oz more Centennial, and .25oz less of....I don't know....maybe Simcoe? I might also drop the hop extract down by 5ml or so.
It's so flipping close I'm not really sure. And considering that Younger is slightly different every year (we're chasing a moving target), I'm confident calling this bad boy cloned. I literally had to restrain myself from drinking several flat pints of this beer last night. It turned out that close, and that good.
I'll know much more in a week or so.
How's your batch going?
At the moment: it appears to be about .5SRM too light, the bitterness is pinch more evident in the finish, and it could have used a hint more Centennial. That's my initial, green-beer-tasting-guess. As I said, by the time the beer clears up, carbs up, and conditions some, that could easily change.
Bear in mind, I'm really digging to find differences. It smells and tastes identical. I handed it to my fiance, and her response was: "Yup, that's definitely it."
Brewing it again, I'd go back to 1.33lbs Dextrose, and drop the 2-row accordingly to get the FG back down to 1.006-1.008. I'd still mash at like 146-148. Possibly still a step mash. The goal obviously is maximum attenuation.
The color is really close, and it's too early to tell what it will look like once it clears up. It might need like 2oz more C40 -- so like 9oz maybe? And for the dry hops, I might have added .25oz more Centennial, and .25oz less of....I don't know....maybe Simcoe? I might also drop the hop extract down by 5ml or so.
It's so flipping close I'm not really sure. And considering that Younger is slightly different every year (we're chasing a moving target), I'm confident calling this bad boy cloned. I literally had to restrain myself from drinking several flat pints of this beer last night. It turned out that close, and that good.
I'll know much more in a week or so.
How's your batch going?
scottland
Well-Known Member
I pulled a 10oz pour tonight. Everything that was off is now right. The sharp lingering bitterness dropped, the sweetness and citrus came out, and the color looks perfect now that it's clearing up. So...... ya. I'll still have a much better idea in like 3-4 days, but at the moment, I'm pretty f'ing giddy.
For those wanting to brew. Ya, more dextrose, and do what you need to do with the mash to get to an FG of 1.006-1.007. Other than that. It's wonderful.
For those wanting to brew. Ya, more dextrose, and do what you need to do with the mash to get to an FG of 1.006-1.007. Other than that. It's wonderful.
@scottland, Once you have this completely perfected, you should create a finalized, clear recipe in the websites IPA database. I think that would help new brewers instead of trying to skim through this thread and piece everything together.
Looks good! Some more clearing and dryness and you're there.
Cheers
Looks good! Some more clearing and dryness and you're there.
Cheers
scottland
Well-Known Member
Ya, that picture is only after 24 hours in the keg. It'll clear up in a week or so.
Scott, you are definetely taking clone beers to the next level.
You have probably nailed the recipe of one of the most mythical beer in the planet.
That is pretty awesome and I hope I can try to brew it here in Brazil (I'm still waiting for my hop extract and amarillo to get through our corrupt and lazy customs).
Cheers
You have probably nailed the recipe of one of the most mythical beer in the planet.
That is pretty awesome and I hope I can try to brew it here in Brazil (I'm still waiting for my hop extract and amarillo to get through our corrupt and lazy customs).
Cheers
bobbrews said:@scottland, Once you have this completely perfected, you should create a finalized, clear recipe in the websites IPA database. I think that would help new brewers instead of trying to skim through this thread and piece everything together.
Looks good! Some more clearing and dryness and you're there.
Cheers
+1 I agree. Let us know when you post the final recipe. I want to try it out!
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
+2! This is one of the most sought-after clone recipes out there.
scottland
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys. Ya, I'll post it up in the recipe database once this beer is fully carbed, and I'm sure which way it needs to go. I think the only change I'd recommend at this point is a little more dextrose, and a little less 2-row. I'd consider a pinch (.25oz) less Amarillo in the dry hop, but I'm not sure yet.
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Very cool Scottland, and a big thank you for your efforts. One thing that I'm wondering about. Do you think the multi-temperature mash on the second attempt offered that much over the straight-up 148 used first time around? I got it down to 1.010 using a single infusion at 148 with your recipe. It's not really possible for me to do a two step infusion with that grain bill. Perhaps a stronger aeration regimen and a larger yeast starter might get in down a point or two. Or perhaps more dextrose into the fermenter with a bit less 2 row. Your thoughts?
Jim
Jim
scottland
Well-Known Member
Literally no idea. At this point, pitching more yeast, a longer mash, more O2, more nutrients, or maybe trying some servomyces could all lead to lower attenuation.
I genuinely don't know if the step mash had any benefit.
scottland
Well-Known Member
48hrs in the keg, and it's clearing up nicely. Color is bang on. To be honest, I haven't been able to keep my hands off of it. I think I've had 4-5 10oz pours over 2 days at this point. Good lord it's good.
kosmokramer
Well-Known Member
Ahh mannn, after the 120 rabbit hole I may just have to follow you again... Looks nice
scottland
Well-Known Member
A. You'd want to brew the updated recipe (post 54) I just brewed.
B. Attenuation is really going to be a challenge with a PM.
So, for a PM recipe. Get the most fermentable extract you can find. Make sure it's extra light extract. We'll drop the carapils, as the extract will have more dextrines. Then....
2lbs 2-row
7oz C40
Mash @ 148-150 for 30-45min
9.75lbs Extra Light Dry Malt Extract
1.5lb Dextrose
35ml Hop Extract @ 90
5ml Hop Extract @ 45
10g CTZ @ 45
1.5oz Simcoe @ 30
2.5oz Simcoe @ 0
1.5oz Centennial @ 0
1oz Amarillo @ 0
.5oz Chinook @ 0
350bil cells of WLP001
DH1: .5oz ea Simcoe/Amarillo/Warrior
DH2: 1oz ea Centennial/CTZ
DH3: .5oz ea Simcoe/Chinook + .25oz Warrior
DH4: 1oz ea Simcoe/Amarillo
That should get you close. You need to oxygenate the hell out of your wort, and I'd recommend overpitching your yeast by at least 50%. Attenuation is always a challenge for big, super-dry, IPAs with a PM.
I would say that by mashing more grain than 2 lbs. at a lower temp. (say 6 lbs. at 145 F) will help. I also think you need a longer mash than a half hour. Longer times at these conditions will allow the beta amylase time to breakdown more of the longer sugars into shorter ones. Keep in mind, the grain mashed by the maltster to make the DME was presumably mashed in the mid 150s. So mashing your grain at 145 F in this PM recipe will help to offset this a bit and give you more control over your mash temp.
A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars.
scottland
Well-Known Member
I'm not a pro at converting to PM, so listen to this advice.
I just racked my batch into the keg to start dry hopping it. Tasted the hydrometer sample tasted great had a ton of peach flavor. I am guessing that is the Amarillo? My final gravity was 1.008. Can't wait to taste it when I get all the dry hops in. Thanks for the info.
scottland
Well-Known Member
2.9lbs less DME will accommodate the 4lbs extra 2-row
Crazyirishman: nice! Ya, Amarillo is very stone-fruit like. It fades
dude i just read this whole thread while taking notes on what i need to do...this will def be the most complex brew i will attempt. I nailed a Goose Island Bourbon County Stout clone..came out at 10.5%ABV. All the hop additions in this one will be interesting. I'm going to start ordering stuff online..if everything comes in I'll be attempting this next weekend, so I may have some more questions 
6 lbs. 2-row (mash at 144-145 F for 75-90 min to offset the extract)
6 lbs. 4 oz. XL DME (pitch it all at boil start or you will need to adjust the amount of hop extract)
1 lb. 4 oz. Corn Sugar (pitch at flameout or high krausen)
8 oz. C15 (lighter on purpose because of the extract)
No carapils (because of the extract)
I also adjusted the post boil hops and dryhops for more of a dank focus like Elder has.
I'm going with WLP090, too. It should be just as good, if not better. But for a partial mash version though, you'll still hover around 1.009-1.013 FG in the best case scenario.
I have heard of folks adding some of the DME to the mash to increase its fermentablity.
Thanks...I'll make these adjustments
The amount of DME will depend on the ppg rating for the extract you intend to use. The above example is for a 5.5 gallon batch and actually based on Briess Golden Light DME, which is 43 ppg and not an extra light version at 5 Lovibond. But it is one of the only readily available American 2-row based light DME's out there. Briess' Extra Light version of DME is actually Pils malt based, so don't use that. If you can find an Extra Light DME that is lighter than Briess with a lower ppg rating, and based on American-2 row, then use it.
i live in austin, so austin homebrew sells this:
http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=145
does that change anything?
No, as stated, Briess Extra Light, or any attempt to describe it as Extra Light, is made from a Pilsen base.
You need an Extra Light DME that uses American 2-row, not Pilsen malt. If you can't find any, stick with regular Light DME.
You need an Extra Light DME that uses American 2-row, not Pilsen malt. If you can't find any, stick with regular Light DME.
its hard to find what the DME consists of...northernbrewer sells Muntons Extra light DME...i did some googling and it seems it contains 2-row and carapils
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/munton-s-dme-extra-light.html
is that okay? its more expensive than Briess, or should i just use Briess Light DME
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/munton-s-dme-extra-light.html
is that okay? its more expensive than Briess, or should i just use Briess Light DME
Muntons is great as well. I have used their Extra Light DME many times in AIPAs with a grist consisting of 3-6 other malts, typically including real American 2-row to offset some of the English taste. But the character you get from English 2-row pale is quite different than American 2-row pale. I would stick with Briess Golden Light DME for this particular beer. We know for a fact that PtY is comprised of an American 2-row base.
Gutpunch
Active Member
I am but a mere extract brewer, but I've found this entire thread to be extraordinarily educational.
I'm curious, bobbrews, what is the significance of drawing a distinction between extracts made from 2-row vs. Pilsen?
I'm curious, bobbrews, what is the significance of drawing a distinction between extracts made from 2-row vs. Pilsen?
scottland
Well-Known Member
Bog post is up with the full breakdown and more pictures. It's fully carbed at this point and tasting incredible. I'm pretty damn proud of how this one turned out.
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/03/pliny-younger-clone-20.html
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/03/pliny-younger-clone-20.html
