Question for accomplished home brewers.

This is a question for those home brewers that I would consider to be very accomplished, just to name a few: Yooper, Revvy, Biermuncher, AZ_IPA, EdWort.

What stops you all from brewing beer professionally? Do you like your current jobs? Is it strictly a hobby? Are you lacking capital like me? Do you think you would stop enjoying brewing, or lose some of the freedom to make what you want?

I am very curious about this subject because I have brewed alot of your recipes and they are amazing. I have no doubt in my mind people would pay to drink your beer. Also as a side note thank you all for being so open with your recipes and knowledge. Your insight, notes, humor, and help in general are invaluable to those less skilled brewers such as myself. Cheers.

I'm not one of those experts who have been at this for years and years but my homebrewing brother and I have talked about it. It comes down to a lack of capital and complete dedication to it. Also there are all the hoops the government makes you jump through in order to market beer that just make it not worth it for most brewers because you would have to charge so much for your beer to turn a profit on a small scale.


OP: I see that you are in Afton, VA. Great motorcycling country out there, I'm about 1.5 hours from you in Culpeper County, VA

I'm not sure why being accomplished matters... I'm sure you would want to learn a lot as a homebrewer before you go pro, but the question seems fairly open.

People have lots of reasons for not going pro. You've mentioned a number. This is a hobby, not a profession. Making it your profession changes a lot of things in your life. You'd also take on a lot of risk that most people can't or don't want to take on.

Personally, I have job satisfaction and a family that couldn't take on this sort of risk. I couldn't take the pay cut and work week increase that are required to make it work. Even if I won the lottery, I'd still be a homebrewer (albeit on a much grander scale).

I am interested in peoples personal reasons, thanks for the reply.

It is meant to be a very open question and hopefully promote discussion.

Jayhem said:

I'm not one of those experts who have been at this for years and years but my homebrewing brother and I have talked about it. It comes down to a lack of capital and complete dedication to it. Also there are all the hoops the government makes you jump through in order to market beer that just make it not worth it for most brewers because you would have to charge so much for your beer to turn a profit on a small scale.


OP: I see that you are in Afton, VA. Great motorcycling country out there, I'm about 1.5 hours from you in Culpeper County, VA

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I work North of cville so I am not far from cupleper. Have you visited the hot bed of breweries we now have in the cville/nelson county area?

bulldogbrewhaus said:

I work North of cville so I am not far from cupleper. Have you visited the hot bed of breweries we now have in the cville/nelson county area?

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Please list some brewery names.

I know the fellow that runs Fermentation Trap near where you work just started a tasting room or something?

My wife and I enjoy touring/tasting at breweris and wineries in VA...we have been to Veritas Vineyard near Afton. We usually go out to Fredericksburg to Blue and Gray to get our growlers filled. We have Star Hill at all the bars around but have never even been to that brewery.

Honestly, lack of capital. If I had access to 100K, I would probably take the plunge, but until that day I'll remain a cog in the corporate machine.

Cville has: South Street, pretty decent brews, less than thrilling service. I will mention beer run, it is not a brewery but and awesome bottleshop/bar. You can get great beers on tap and browse their selection at the same time. Basically a beer lovers candy store.

Crozet has: Starr hill as you mentioned, they give free tastings and brewery tours. Not my favorite beer but a fun experience.

Nelson County has: Blue Mountain, Great beer, Great scenic location, Decent Food, Mediocre service. Devils Backbone, Good beer, Good food, Good Service, Full service bar. Wild Wolf, Mediocre beer, Good food, Good service.

Also a ton of wineries. Too many to list. My favorite is Cardinal Point. Cheers.

Darwin18 said:

Honestly, lack of capital. If I had access to 100K, I would probably take the plunge, but until that day I'll remain a cog in the corporate machine.

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I expected this to be the most popular answer.

Fear of cleaning giant mash tuns.

There are a couple reasons to me:

1) I make a comfortable living doing my main line of work. (I/T), and I enjoy my work.
2) Starting a brewery requires capitals/investors, which you have to keep happy. Your recipe choices can sometimes be fixed due to what your customers want. I love to experiment. I'd get pretty bored making the same 4-5 beers year around plus a handful of seasonals. [Although there is a good trend on experimental beers now]

MC

Darwin18 said:

Honestly, lack of capital. If I had access to 100K, I would probably take the plunge, but until that day I'll remain a cog in the corporate machine.

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Not me! I'm at a point at my life where I am NOT interested in working that hard, and I am brewing for a hobby and for good beer for myself. I have a few other hobbies that I enjoy, like making soap, and I give a lot of soap away.

It's fun for me, because it's a hobby. If I had to do it for a living, then it wouldn't be a hobby anymore.

I know lots of guys who love restoring old cars as a hobby, but they don't want to work as mechanics or body shop guys. The same is true of me with brewing. I love it, so I don't want to do it professionally.

Yooper said:

Not me! I'm at a point at my life where I am NOT interested in working that hard, and I am brewing for a hobby and for good beer for myself. I have a few other hobbies that I enjoy, like making soap, and I give a lot of soap away.

It's fun for me, because it's a hobby. If I had to do it for a living, then it wouldn't be a hobby anymore.

I know lots of guys who love restoring old cars as a hobby, but they don't want to work as mechanics or body shop guys. The same is true of me with brewing. I love it, so I don't want to do it professionally.

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Thanks for posting Yooper, Good answers, and Keep on rocking as long as the world is free or at least inexpensive.

*FYI I'm not one of the accomplished brewers you wanted opinions from*. Capital is usually the main reason for most, for me as well. The thing that nobody thinks about ahead of time is just how much of a headache it all entails. I want to someday have my own small brewpub, not a huge bar and not a brewery, just a small brewpub. With that however comes customers, and with customers you always get the inevitable a-holes that are a nightmare to deal with. You can also get smacked with frivolous baseless lawsuits - "I got into an accident on the way home cause I drank your beer! I'm suing!". Or the slip and fall, there are so many bad things to deal with. There also licenses and such and with a brewery you have to deal with distribution which can be a real pain to get going. Distributors often don't want to have your new not yet popular beer wasting their space.

There's also the fact that you *will* need to pay others, so yeah capital... you need a lot of it. You should have at the very least one years worth of operational costs ahead of time. There's rent, utilities, equipment, supplies, salaries, etc. 100K is probably the bare minimum I would start thinking about starting a small brewpub, and I don't have anywhere near that kind of cash. And yeah, making the same "staple" beers under your brand would indeed get boring. With a brewpub I figure at least I can experiment more but even there you still need a set of the same beers available all the time.


Rev.

I absolutely love what I do for a living and would work as long as possible even if I did win the lottery. For me, homebrewing is a comprehensive hobby that will always be around as long as I am, and I plan to keep it as such, a hobby.

I enjoyed writing about my favorite NFL team for years, just on a fan-site. I was just one voice of many, but then I got "promoted" to the Front Page as one of the "staff writers". I get paid a very small amount for blogging, but there are also expectations on posts/week, etc. It sometimes feels more like an obligation at that point, and I fear that my writing has suffered as a result of just trying to "pump out articles".

I think brewing on a large scale, the same beers over and over, without the DIY/experimentation that we all have could become cumbersome. Sure, if you could afford to pay people to do the actual brewing while you did small batch experiments to come up with new recipes, spent time with other pro brewers drinking each other's beers, learning about different setups, going out to bars and selling your product, etc...that aspect seems like it could be fun...but again, eventually you may see them as things you HAVE to do in order to stay in business rather than fun pastimes.

If you turn you favorite "hobby" into a full time job you will quickly loose interest and probably end up hating it. I did with cars and cooking.

I think I'd like to be a brewery owner, but not a brewer. Brewing is hard work and, for the most part, the pay is low. Brewing for someone else is out. While I might be able to come up with the capital needed for a small brewery, I'm not willing to risk everything my wife and I have worked for to do this. I'll just keep on with my homebrewing and share it with friends.

Some good insight provided in this thread so far. Thanks everyone for sharing.

signmastr said:

If you turn you favorite "hobby" into a full time job you will quickly loose interest and probably end up hating it. I did with cars and cooking.

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Spot on.

I saw this with photography. I love taking photographs and have been told that I produce great results but when I went pro I was spending infinitely more time marketing, book keeping, managing, networking, website development, model booking etc than making images. Cue stress, lack of fulfilment and ultimately a reduction of creative vision because of all the other things pulling on my time.

I imagine that running even a small brewpub would be 95% or more business management and 5% brewing. Then as people have said the brewing you do get to do is mostly 4 or 5 staple beers with all the problems of getting those to a saleable consistency and it all looks less fun than it did when we produce a good homebrew batch and enjoy emptying the bottles again.

I think it comes down to passion. Like working in the restaurant business, if you are not hard core about of 110% of the time then you would be doomed to fail. I think many home brewers fantasize about going big,...but that would really change if from something done to take away stress to something that adds stress.

Other than that,...I agree with most of what the other comments are...lack of capital. It is a big step! Additionally, lack of a concise business plan that addresses opportunities, threats, weaknesses, and strengths when it comes to locations, demographics,...etc.

So for now...brew beer and stay happy and thirsty my friends!!!

mcspanner said:

Spot on.

I saw this with photography. I love taking photographs and have been told that I produce great results but when I went pro I was spending infinitely more time marketing, book keeping, managing, networking, website development, model booking etc than making images. Cue stress, lack of fulfilment and ultimately a reduction of creative vision because of all the other things pulling on my time.

I imagine that running even a small brewpub would be 95% or more business management and 5% brewing. Then as people have said the brewing you do get to do is mostly 4 or 5 staple beers with all the problems of getting those to a saleable consistency and it all looks less fun than it did when we produce a good homebrew batch and enjoy emptying the bottles again.

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Totally agree with this one. I've been big into photography for many years. I've learned after years of forum participation, submissions, trying to sell my photos--it's just not something I want to get into professionally anymore. Competition is cutthroat and the expectation bar is so high now with what people are conditioned to seeing on the Internet.

This lesson carried over into my brewing hobby. I think everyone gets those "i can go pro" feelings. Especially when their buddies tell them their brew is the best they've had.

It's easier when you accept it for what it is, a hobby. It's fun. Creativity blossoms without financial limitations. My biggest pleasure comes when a friend drinks my brew and really enjoys it.

BrewThruYou said:

Fear of cleaning giant mash tuns.

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That's what interns are for.

What an interesting thread...
I run my own small live theatre company, so the idea of turning a passion into a living is something I'm pretty familiar with. It does take up your entire life, so you have to be committed, and you have to know ahead of time that there's a lot of extra work involved. But, wow, does it sure beat "working" for a living. I get up every morning and do what I would do on my days off. The one pro brewer I know seems to love business and people as much as he loves brewing. That would strike me as an important element. Loving beer is one thing, loving to make beer for other people is another thing entirely.

kblankenship11 said:

Creativity blossoms without financial limitations. My biggest pleasure comes when a friend drinks my brew and really enjoys it.

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For me, it's not about financial limitations. I would NOT brew to sell, no matter what.

I just love talking about brewing, helping others with recipes, brewing for myself and friends, and getting geeky with friends who also brew. It's strictly a hobby for me, and always will be. I have a passion for brewing, but I never want to feel like I "have" to brew. Of course, I'm retired from my job but still work filling in for vacations. And I love that, too- because I no longer "have to" work.

Doing anything because you must instead of because you want to takes all of the fun out of it!

it's risky. we all love beer, but are we willing to risk losing everything for it?

it's also, in a certain way, less fun. most of your time and effort will be spent on 1) selling beer (marketing), 2) administration & regulation, 3) making beer - in that order.

I would think most people do not go pro because they like money

Yooper said:

For me, it's not about financial limitations. I would NOT brew to sell, no matter what.

Doing anything because you must instead of because you want to takes all of the fun out of it!

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This. I have tried turning some of my hobbies 'pro' and come to regret it. I stated this same thought elsewhere on this and other forums. I don't need to work, I do it to help fill the time around my hobbies since my kids are moved out and my grandchildren are so far away.

I still want to have my own small brewery but not until I get closer to retirement. Too many other things going on right now to do it right. In the mean time though I just brew and act like I have a small brewery. I pour at beer festivals, sell brewery merchandise, have a FB page and website. I bet there are a lot of people who think that I am a fully licensed brewery.... Of course I don't sell beer but for a lot of people they don't really care. They like the local name I picked for the brewery and dig wearing the t-shirts.

How about a strong competitive market & potentially a saturated market? There are more breweries now than since before prohibition, yet annual beer sales were down over the past two years (craft beer does show growth). http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/business-tools/craft-brewing-statistics/facts

Do you think the big boys (InBev, Molson-Coors, Boston Beer, New Belgium, Sierra Nevada, etc.) want to see their share of the (shrinking) market get smaller? I would bet there will be a retraction in the number of small breweries within 5-10 years (or sooner). My (uneducated) guess is up to a third of small breweries won't be around by then.

Jayhem said:

Please list some brewery names.

I know the fellow that runs Fermentation Trap near where you work just started a tasting room or something?

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He's got an entire bar set up now, at least 7 or 8 of his beers to choose from on tap, and you can even buy a growler to go.....

Yooper said:

For me, it's not about financial limitations. I would NOT brew to sell, no matter what.

I just love talking about brewing, helping others with recipes, brewing for myself and friends, and getting geeky with friends who also brew. It's strictly a hobby for me, and always will be. I have a passion for brewing, but I never want to feel like I "have" to brew. Of course, I'm retired from my job but still work filling in for vacations. And I love that, too- because I no longer "have to" work.

Doing anything because you must instead of because you want to takes all of the fun out of it!

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This kind of thing. I don't consider myself one of those brewers you mentioned, but if I had to consider being a pro brewer, I would not.

It does stroke the ego a bit when you take two of your latest beers down to the girl at the video store and she calls back later saying the afternoon girl liked it so much she wants to buy a 6-pack *under the table*. And this afternoon shift girl doesn't even drink beer.

I just have no interest in selling. Likewise, no interest in producing for a brewery, either my own, or someone else.

I just like making beer, drinking beer, and making beer that I am proud to share with others.

FWIW I have seen more than a couple of very successful breweries where the person who started brewing there either stopped brewing, or were let go or quit. The brewer positions almost seem like some kind of revolving door. Only a couple that I know of have brewers that seem to like what they do and the people they work for/with. It doesn't take long for the "industry" aspect to show itself.

Interesting stuff in this thread. I studied exercise science and physiology in college. Went to work at a gym and made it less than 6 months before I quit and now I work in manufacturing. There is certainly something to be said for mixing passion with business, in both a positive and negative light. I recently met a guy who told me he knows some folks who have a brewing co-op. They all chipped in and bought a big conical. Every so often they get together brew a big batch and then all share the beer. I wonder if there will be an increase in this type of thing as small breweries and brewpubs start to lose popularity (if that happens, I personally dont think it will).

While I fully respect people's feelings about how turning a beloved hobby into a job can lead to stress and taking away the fun I still don't quite get the negativity associated with it. So are all pro brewers and brewery owners non-brewers but just people doing an average day to day job? Of course not. Did Jim Koch start Sam Adams because he wanted to ruin his love of brewing? Of course not! Do musicians become pro because they deep down inside don't care about their music and making a job of it? Again, of course not.

I dunno, I see where y'all are coming from but I think doing something you love still beats most menial jobs working out of a cubicle. I think the comparison is if I worked in a brewery just moving around sacks of grain, I'd hate it! I'm an IT Technician for a living and have been doing this now for 13 years (between 2 law firms). I got into IT because since I was a kid I loved computers and was always good at tech. I loved working at my last firm but a bad merger saw me the need to switch firms and I got out (it's now gone under just recently so I certainly made the right choice). Anyhow, I hate the new firm and am still sitting in a cubicle. IMO taking one of my loved hobbies (making music and beer) and generating enough income to live off of still beats the hell out of my current employment.

Don't get me wrong, I get the stresses involved, the fluctuating income, and all the other problems associated with running a business, I know it's not at all easy by any stretch. Of course if you love your job then I can see why making a hobby a business would make zero sense


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

While I fully respect people's feelings about how turning a beloved hobby into a job can lead to stress and taking away the fun I still don't quite get the negativity associated with it. So are all pro brewers and brewery owners non-brewers but just people doing an average day to day job? Of course not. Did Jim Koch start Sam Adams because he wanted to ruin his love of brewing? Of course not! Do musicians become pro because they deep down inside don't care about their music and making a job of it? Again, of course not.

I dunno, I see where y'all are coming from but I think doing something you love still beats most menial jobs working out of a cubicle. I think the comparison is if I worked in a brewery just moving around sacks of grain, I'd hate it! I'm an IT Technician for a living and have been doing this now for 13 years (between 2 law firms). I got into IT because since I was a kid I loved computers and was always good at tech. I loved my last firm but a merger saw me the need to switch firms and I got out (it's now gone under just recently so I certainly made the right choice). Anyhow, I hate the new firm and am still sitting in a cubicle. IMO taking one of my loved hobbies (making music and beer) and generating enough income to live off of still beats the hell out of my current employment.

Don't get me wrong, I get the stresses involved, the fluctuating income, and all the other problems associated with running a business, I know it's not at all easy by any stretch. Of course if you love your job then I can see why making a hobby a business would make zero sense


Rev.

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I see your point. I too love my job, also in IT but I found that when I started tying flies professionally quite a few years back, I lost interest in the hobby. I didn't care for the deadline, the quotas or even the worst, I'm out fishing the Saco River in Maine and a customer sees me and wants to know "why am I not finishing his order?" Being the semi-intelligent ape that I am, I answered I was testing a new pattern. But it was very shortly after that, that I decided never again would I turn a hobby into my profession.
As I said earlier in this, I am also in IT and I can hoestly tell you I have no desire to do IT at home even though I love my job, actually, I hardly ever use a computer at home.

The reason most of us love it now is because we're our own boss, totally. There's absolutely no reason to brew a batch unless we WANT to. There's no "keeping the lights on", there's no "making sure employees have money for Christmas", there's no "paying the mortgage" involved whatsoever in our hobby of brewing. In other words, there's very little actual pressure. Sure, we pressure ourselves to get a beer done for a competition or a wedding, or to restock the pipeline...but these aren't life-and-death situations, so if we screw them up, oh well.

When it becomes your life, your kids' college fund, your retirement, and the lives of your employees (not to mention the demands of customers)...you're technically not doing it for "fun" anymore...you're doing it for the aforementioned reasons.

When I spoke earlier about passion...and going from stress relief to stress...what I failed to state was that having a passion for it can be a good thing! Having been a small business owner I can say that it is a wonderful experience and you truly do have control of your future! If brewing beer and going big is what you feel like doing then throw caution to the wind and make it happen!

Subsailor said:

I am also in IT and I can hoestly tell you I have no desire to do IT at home even though I love my job, actually, I hardly ever use a computer at home.

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Ha, tell me about it! I know exactly what you mean. Matter of fact I fixed one problem that had been bothering me repeatedly - removing malware or viruses from family member's PC's. I got so sick of it I installed Ubuntu as a dual boot for everyone, even partners in my firms when they became annoying repeat "infectees". I told everyone to use Linux for everything, absolutely everything and only go into Windows for something you find you might not be able to do in Linux, like if they wanted to sync their iPod to iTunes or something. Ya know what? It worked! Since then I am no longer being asked to troubleshoot any of their machines and they all have told me how much they love Linux.

I know, of topic but whatever. I see what you're saying though.


Rev.

The business part scares me ****less, but the thought of dozens... hundreds... thousands...tens of thousands... enjoying my beer is a thought I just can't give up. But that's just ego. It won't be just my beer; it will be my employees, investors, clients and customers beer too.

I am far too selfish to compromise. Unless everyone liked what I do, I'd never make it in the business.

In the end, this is my creative outlet.

If I had the means and the freedom to do it, then I would do it - no questions asked. But that's not how it works.

Rev2010 said:

While I fully respect people's feelings about how turning a beloved hobby into a job can lead to stress and taking away the fun I still don't quite get the negativity associated with it. So are all pro brewers and brewery owners non-brewers but just people doing an average day to day job? Of course not. Did Jim Koch start Sam Adams because he wanted to ruin his love of brewing? Of course not! Do musicians become pro because they deep down inside don't care about their music and making a job of it? Again, of course not.

I dunno, I see where y'all are coming from but I think doing something you love still beats most menial jobs working out of a cubicle. I think the comparison is if I worked in a brewery just moving around sacks of grain, I'd hate it! I'm an IT Technician for a living and have been doing this now for 13 years (between 2 law firms). I got into IT because since I was a kid I loved computers and was always good at tech. I loved working at my last firm but a bad merger saw me the need to switch firms and I got out (it's now gone under just recently so I certainly made the right choice). Anyhow, I hate the new firm and am still sitting in a cubicle. IMO taking one of my loved hobbies (making music and beer) and generating enough income to live off of still beats the hell out of my current employment.

Don't get me wrong, I get the stresses involved, the fluctuating income, and all the other problems associated with running a business, I know it's not at all easy by any stretch. Of course if you love your job then I can see why making a hobby a business would make zero sense

Rev.

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I think we're looking at the same coin from different sides and, just for good measure and to thoroughly mix a metaphor the grass is always greener on the other side of that err.... coin.

I get how lucky I am to be able to make money doing something that I have always loved, when I'm shooting and the creative juices are flowing I can think of very, very few people alive or dead I'd swap places with. Problem is, as I mentioned, nowadays that great bit is such a tiny proportion of what I have to do as a business owner that it gets harder and harder to keep focusing on that high when I'm dealing with all the crud that comes from the business development and management that just gets in the way of doing what I really love.

Add into that the toughest recession in living memory in the UK and most of my clients start cutting their marketing spend ( tends to be the pot they pay the photographer out of) and you start to see how the stresses can take the joy out of trying to make a living out of something I'm still incredibly passionate about.

I don't mind admitting that if it hadn't been for SWMBOs day job we'd have been fubarred a long while ago ( I actually started brewing to cut our expenditure, obviously cutting out beer was NEVER an option!) so having a hobby that isn't connected with all the stresses has a lot going for it. I know a couple of guys that own breweries and to be honest they tend to employ a very passionate head brewer whilst they manage a business.

If I was ever to want to take brewing to a professional level I would find a business partner who loves that side of things and knows nothing about brewing.