Sugar for fermentation - quick question

I know this is talked about elsewhere, esp. ie. How to Brew...but I was wondering if I could just get a couple of QUICK opinions.

This will be my first brew ever, and I have decided just to try a Cooper's Original Lager kit to start (I think I'll quickly move on from there after this first try). The kit calls for 1kg of sugar. I have read enough that people suggest using either Corn sugar (dextrose) or DME instead of cane. My question is this:

1) Since this isn't exactly a top-grade batch, should I even bother getting dextrose or DME and just throw some cane sugar in there?

OR

2) Should I get some DME...but for a Lager should I get Light, Medium, or Dark DME? (probably light?!)

Thanks...I'm very eager to try my hand at brewing!

I'd use DME instead of cane sugar. Also, this is a lager which requires much lower fermentation temps (in the 40's) Are you able to do that?

I would not use any sugar for fermentation other than the sugar that comes from the malt. If for priming I would use either corn sugar or light DME never cane sugar for anything.

Also not sure about doing a lager for your first batch. Ales are much more forgiving during the fermentation process, and they don't take near as long so you can reap the rewards faster, which for a first timer that wait seems like forever. If you already bought the kit you can simply buy a packet of ale yeast and keep everything else the same if you decide to make an ale instead.

Using light or extra light DME will give you better results. Just because the basic kit is ... basic, doesn't mean you can't improve it.

cnbudz said:

I'd use DME instead of cane sugar. Also, this is a lager which requires much lower fermentation temps (in the 40's) Are you able to do that?

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Well, I thought the temp around here (southern Ontario) was getting down...but it looks like we'll be back up to around 30C sometime this week (~85F)...so I was going to keep it in the basement with ice packs. Not that I was particularly concerned about producing a "lager" per se, as much as just making a beer. But it's a good point, I could wait and use this for the next batch when it really is colder....

joshpooh said:

I would not use any sugar for fermentation other than the sugar that comes from the malt. If for priming I would use either corn sugar or light DME never cane sugar for anything.

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Really, you wouldn't add any sugars to the fermentation? Wouldn't this make a really, really light beer?

joshpooh said:

Also not sure about doing a lager for your first batch. Ales are much more forgiving during the fermentation process, and they don't take near as long so you can reap the rewards faster, which for a first timer that wait seems like forever. If you already bought the kit you can simply buy a packet of ale yeast and keep everything else the same if you decide to make an ale instead.

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Will using the lager yeast at higher temps produce a bad product?

david_42 said:

Using light or extra light DME will give you better results. Just because the basic kit is ... basic, doesn't mean you can't improve it.

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True, I guess it is worth the extra couple of bucks..even if it's just a kit and my first time... my Uncle brews Cooper's kits (in a 100L fermenter!) and only uses cane sugar b/c he likes the cidery taste...

Right, no sugar at all. It sounds counterintuitive, but sugar produces a thinner, drier beer. If you want a beer with some body, don't use sugar. It has something to do with simple sugars being more completely fermentable than malt sugars (maltose).

Lager yeast at higher temperatures do not produce a very good product. You could use ale yeast for better results but 85 degrees is too hot for that, too. I made a cooler into a fermentation chamber by putting water and water bottles (frozen) into the water and it keeps the fermenting beer at a better temperature (in the 60s). See my gallery for pictures of it.

Ah, do I take it when he says "I would not use any sugar" what Josh means is simple sugars...as opposed to DME (malt sugars)...or does you both mean add no sugar at all (not cane/corn/malt sugar) other than the extract from the can? Sorry, now I'm a bit confused.

BTW, I don't actually think my basement will get that hot over this week...but for sure it will be in the low 20s C (around 70F at least). But I'm really starting to consider delaying the lager...especially after listening to a podcast on lagering from Basic Brewing Radio with John Palmer just now...

Thanks so much for your input everyone. I've been scouring homebrewtalk for the last week or so, and have enjoyed so many of the posts and have come to observe some of the characters around here! What a great community this seems to be.

Right, don't add sugar means just don't add sugar. Malt extract is usually referred to as LME (liquid malt extract) or DME (dry malt extract). It's unhopped and ready to use. Use either LME or DME instead of sugar and you'll be glad you did! I've always bought the lightest extract I could find because the boil will darken it.

To simplify things, DME/LME = Malt Extract or "malt sugar", Sugar = corn/table/cane sugar. It is ok to add some malt extract in to the batch in order to make a bigger (higher ABV) or to add body to a beer. If you add sugar it will ferment out more and dry the beer out (cidery). As for Lager vs. Ale, IMO I would stick with some ales until you get the processes of brewing down.

Good Luck and Welcome to the Hobby!

Cheers

I remember seeing somewhere that you use more DME than you would cane sugar...but I can't seem to pull up the ratio....darn it!

Can anyone be kind enough to remind me? The kit suggests one kg sugar...so I would add ~1.5kg DME?? Something like that?

EDIT:
OK, never mind. I got 500g of light DME on the way home and mixed it with 500g dextrose. I decided to go with the lager kit anyway b/c upon closer inspection the dried yeast said "BREWERS YEAST", so I doubt it's even a special lager variety...or a strain that is so newbie friendly that it's fine at higher temps and doesn't need perfect lagering conditions. To be honest, I just want to make a beer with this batch...not really make a true lager. Wish me luck, I just pitched the yeast!!

andyp said:

I remember seeing somewhere that you use more DME than you would cane sugar...but I can't seem to pull up the ratio....darn it!

Can anyone be kind enough to remind me? The kit suggests one kg sugar...so I would add ~1.5kg DME?? Something like that?

EDIT:
OK, never mind. I got 500g of light DME on the way home and mixed it with 500g dextrose. I decided to go with the lager kit anyway b/c upon closer inspection the dried yeast said "BREWERS YEAST", so I doubt it's even a special lager variety...or a strain that is so newbie friendly that it's fine at higher temps and doesn't need perfect lagering conditions. To be honest, I just want to make a beer with this batch...not really make a true lager. Wish me luck, I just pitched the yeast!!

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Replacing the recommended cane sugar with the same amount of DME will result in a fuller flavored but slightly lower alcohol as the DME is less fermentable than sugar. Your suggestion of 1.5kg would be even fuller bodied and more flavorful and at a similar ABV. Replacing the sugar with DME is usually recommended to make a more flavorful, fuller bodied beer. Cane sugar is not usually recommended. The only possible downside is that with the extra body the beer might seem a little underhopped.
Dextrose is said to add flavor to beer while cane sugar is said to be cidery which is why dextrose is used to prime beer instead of cane.
Your "Brewers Yeast" is most likely a fairly clean Ale yeast. This is not a Lager yeast so it won't produce a true lager. If you keep your fermentation temps around 65F then the beer should turn out fairly clean and a decent lite beer.
Craig

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm having a lot of fun with it either way it turns out.

I kinda cheated last night (it was getting late) and since I didn't realise that my kit was for 23L, and I only had a 23L carboy I filled it up to about 21L. After work today I came home to lots of foam coming out of the airlock and the lid a short distance away. So, I cleaned out my other carboy (was keeping for the 2ndary) and racked about a gallon into it....so now I've got some headspace in the first one. I think I'll just end up racking the primary right into the gallon in the other carboy, even though there will have been a bit of primary still there...

I hope I didn't spoil anything in the process, tonight. Still keeping my fingers crossed. How do you guys WAIT?!