Timer Function or What roll does the Timer Play?

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W0rter

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I'm building a panel that sports 3 PID's 1 HLT 1 RIM tube and 1 Exit of the MLT. A Blichmann propane burner under the BK will supply all the heat (strike water, sparge water via a pump and finally boiling the wort.) I see some panels including KAL's that sport a Timer. What is the purposed job the timer is serving? is it simply an egg timer for 60 min boils or when to add hops or does it somehow initiate a process in the brew recipe? Thinking of adding one but first off I'm curious if it's only for the wow factor.
Thanks
 
It's simply a timer. Some of the PIDs have built in timers that you can set to start or stop a process, but there's really no need.
 
I had the same question before I built my control panel. I initially designed it without the timer, since Kal's suggested timer was prohibitively expensive for what amounts to a kitchen timer. But when I posted my design for review, I was pointed to the Auber ASL-51. It's slightly more cumbersome to use, since it doesn't have a button for each digit, but it's only ~ $30.

In the end, I redesigned my system to use the $30 timer, if only to have a dedicated timer that's built in to the system. That way I don't have to worry with an additional watch or timer, or being on a call when my phone timer goes off, etc.

Regardless of whether you incorporate a timer, I'd definitely use a buzzer/alarm that can be tied to your PIDs - it can be nice to set temp alarms that can trigger an audible sound if you're out of the room.
 
If the title of this is a nod to Dr. Strangelove, I tip my hat to you, if not, I believe that the integrated timer is a sweet piece of fluff, but not needed when the cooking timers that are programmable are pretty reliable.

I use my cell phone's alarms, not my favorite solution, but works quite well.
 
I use the the $2 brew pal app on my phone for recipes. It includes mash and boil timer functions and will let you know when to add ingredients based on you recipe.

Part of the purpose of having an automated electric system is you don't have to be standing in front of it watching the clock.
 
OK here's an interesting question. say I opt for the timer (prob ASL-51 or JSL-71) and I'm using an alarm can I wire the alarm to serve two functions? Like alert me if the mash temp exceeds a preset limit and when the timer runs out?
 
Yes it is just a wired OR circuit with the pid OR the timer triggering the alarm. You may want a couple 2way or one 3way switch to select mash temp or timer alarm outputs. Otherwise you will have to reprogram the pid to turn off the
Mash alarm in order to use the timer alarm.
 
W0rter said:
OK here's an interesting question. say I opt for the timer (prob ASL-51 or JSL-71) and I'm using an alarm can I wire the alarm to serve two functions? Like alert me if the mash temp exceeds a preset limit and when the timer runs out?
Click to expand...

Short answer: yes - the buzzer can be triggered by any of the PIDs or timer, and can go off when either the time limit expires, or when a temperature is hit (or both).

I tend to think of an "alarm" as a timer and buzzer combo, which (to me) confuses how the whole panel is wired. It helps to not think about the alarm as one piece, but rather as two - a timer, and a buzzer. The buzzer just goes off whenever a circuit to the buzzer is closed. That can be triggered by the timer, the PIDs, or any combination.

I modeled my control panel off of my understanding of how Kal's works. As such, I have a 2-way "alarm on/off" switch for each of the PIDs and another switch for the timer. That way I can set which elements can trigger the buzzer at any given time.
 
I find my timer useful... it is a dual function sestos timer and cost about $30 shipped... Now they have a 4 mode timer which would be even better for multiple hop additions. I like the alarm functions since I dont stand there watching the boil but rather do other stuff in my house. like sterilize my conical or run the hoses for my plate chiller.. or wash my dishes :) a phone timer works too but I prefer the one mounted in my panel.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009NREDWM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 its very easy to use and adjust.

the 4 mode one I will eventually upgrade to...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008KVV546/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
Last edited by a moderator:
0verdrive said:
Short answer: yes - the buzzer can be triggered by any of the PIDs or timer, and can go off when either the time limit expires, or when a temperature is hit (or both).

I tend to think of an "alarm" as a timer and buzzer combo, which (to me) confuses how the whole panel is wired. It helps to not think about the alarm as one piece, but rather as two - a timer, and a buzzer. The buzzer just goes off whenever a circuit to the buzzer is closed. That can be triggered by the timer, the PIDs, or any combination.

I modeled my control panel off of my understanding of how Kal's works. As such, I have a 2-way "alarm on/off" switch for each of the PIDs and another switch for the timer. That way I can set which elements can trigger the buzzer at any given time.
Click to expand...
I have mine wired the same way.only I use the same buzzer for both the pid alarms and timer in any combination... I also used a dual alarm pid for my rims tube... this way if the temp drops below or above certain set points the alarm will go off and notify me of an issue. I also use a flow switch to kill the rims element if the flow stops for safety. All this makes brewing more foolproof and easier to manage so I dont think of it as "BLING"... if you have seen my setup you will see that I am about function over form unlike some others here. whatever makes an owner happy...
 
W0rter said:
OK here's an interesting question. say I opt for the timer (prob ASL-51 or JSL-71) and I'm using an alarm can I wire the alarm to serve two functions? Like alert me if the mash temp exceeds a preset limit and when the timer runs out?
Click to expand...
As other have said - yup!

That's why I included a timer in my panel design too - for consistency. There are 4 different "things" (3 PIDs, 1 timer) that can sound the alarm all independently. My wiring diagram probably explains it best:

alarms.jpg


While each of the PID controller temperature alarm values is programmed separately, the PID alarm outputs (together with the timer alarm output) are wired in parallel. It only takes one of the 4 devices to sound the alarm.

If any of the PID controllers or the timer raises an alarm state, an internal relay in the device is closed allowing power to flow to the 120V alarm buzzer and 120V alarm light as long as the respective alarm selector switch is also in the ON position.

The 4 alarm on/off selector switches are used to enable/disable the individual device alarms as desired. When all 4 are off, the 120V alarm buzzer will not sound and the 120V alarm light will not turn on.

The timer terminals 6 (START) and 2 (NEUTRAL) are shorted and wired such that the timer starts counting down as soon as it is powered on.

So how are alarms used? Here's what I do - some temperature based, some time based:

- The hot liquor has reached strike temperature (alarm sent from the Hot Liquor Tank PID).

- The mash is complete (alarm sent from the countdown timer).

- The hot liquor has reached sparge temperature (alarm sent from the Hot Liquor Tank PID).

- The wort is about to boil (alarm sent from the Boil Kettle PID).

- The boil is complete (alarm sent from the countdown timer).

The timer's used to time various things such as mash time, boil time, etc.

As someone else already mentioned I like the Omega timer with four buttons for changing the time (instead of two). On the Omega PTC-21, you simply press any of the four buttons to change the four digits directly. On the Auber ASL-51 (or similar) you use one button to cycle through the digits and then a second button to change the value. Slower in use. But cheaper as was already mentioned.

If power to the control is interrupted during a countdown, the Omega PTC-21 remembers the time and continues where it left off when power returns. This is a very handy feature if you live in an area with frequent power interruptions or happen to turn the control panel off momentarily during use (either on purpose or by accident). The Auber ASL-51 timer does not have this non-volatile memory. When power is removed from the Auber timer and then re-applied, the countdown is reset.

Good luck!

Kal
 
kal said:
As other have said - yup!



That's why I included a timer in my panel design too - for consistency. There are 4 different "things" (3 PIDs, 1 timer) that can sound the alarm all independently. My wiring diagram probably explains it best:



alarms.jpg




While each of the PID controller temperature alarm values is programmed separately, the PID alarm outputs (together with the timer alarm output) are wired in parallel. It only takes one of the 4 devices to sound the alarm.



If any of the PID controllers or the timer raises an alarm state, an internal relay in the device is closed allowing power to flow to the 120V alarm buzzer and 120V alarm light as long as the respective alarm selector switch is also in the ON position.



The 4 alarm on/off selector switches are used to enable/disable the individual device alarms as desired. When all 4 are off, the 120V alarm buzzer will not sound and the 120V alarm light will not turn on.



The timer terminals 6 (START) and 2 (NEUTRAL) are shorted and wired such that the timer starts counting down as soon as it is powered on.



So how are alarms used? Here's what I do - some temperature based, some time based:



- The hot liquor has reached strike temperature (alarm sent from the Hot Liquor Tank PID).



- The mash is complete (alarm sent from the countdown timer).



- The hot liquor has reached sparge temperature (alarm sent from the Hot Liquor Tank PID).



- The wort is about to boil (alarm sent from the Boil Kettle PID).



- The boil is complete (alarm sent from the countdown timer).



The timer's used to time various things such as mash time, boil time, etc.



As someone else already mentioned I like the Omega timer with four buttons for changing the time (instead of two). On the Omega PTC-21, you simply press any of the four buttons to change the four digits directly. On the Auber ASL-51 (or similar) you use one button to cycle through the digits and then a second button to change the value. Slower in use. But cheaper as was already mentioned.



If power to the control is interrupted during a countdown, the Omega PTC-21 remembers the time and continues where it left off when power returns. This is a very handy feature if you live in an area with frequent power interruptions or happen to turn the control panel off momentarily during use (either on purpose or by accident). The Auber ASL-51 timer does not have this non-volatile memory. When power is removed from the Auber timer and then re-applied, the countdown is reset.



Good luck!



Kal
Click to expand...


If the alarm switches just open and close the circuit to the light and buzzer, could the pid's and timer function without a switch? If they are sending the signal to sound the alarm, can you shut the alarm off from the pid and timer?
 
lupulinaddict said:
If the alarm switches just open and close the circuit to the light and buzzer, could the pid's and timer function without a switch? If they are sending the signal to sound the alarm, can you shut the alarm off from the pid and timer?
Click to expand...
No, at least not easily. There's no alarm reset button on either.

For example, with my boil PID I have a high temp alarm set to 208F to let me know when I'm approach boil. When I want to use that feature, I flick on the BOIL ALARM switch. When it sounds, I turn off the BOIL ALARM switch.

Without the switch I'd have to go into the PID and change the 208F to something else that doesn't cause an alarm. I don't want to do that as that's a pain, I'm about to go to boil, I may mess something else up, and I don't want to have to reprogram it again to 208F the next time I want to use it.

$5 switches make more sense.

Kal
 
kal said:
No, at least not easily. There's no alarm reset button on either.



For example, with my boil PID I have a high temp alarm set to 208F to let me know when I'm approach boil. When I want to use that feature, I flick on the BOIL ALARM switch. When it sounds, I turn off the BOIL ALARM switch.



Without the switch I'd have to go into the PID and change the 208F to something else that doesn't cause an alarm. I don't want to do that as that's a pain, I'm about to go to boil, I may mess something else up, and I don't want to have to reprogram it again to 208F the next time I want to use it.



$5 switches make more sense.



Kal
Click to expand...


Ok thanks, that makes sense. So if you have it set at 208 degrees, the Pid is still sending the signal to sound the alarm while you're boiling?

I think I will put alarm switches, I really think the pre-boil alarm would be great to have to prevent a boil over.
 
lupulinaddict said:
Ok thanks, that makes sense. So if you have it set at 208 degrees, the Pid is still sending the signal to sound the alarm while you're boiling?
Click to expand...
Yes. The PID has 2 temp alarms: One will turn on when the temp is hit on the way up, the other when it's on it's way down.

Doesn't matter what you're doing or where the temp is going. If you have the upwards temp alarm set at 208F, when the PID passes 208F and stays above 208F, the alarm condition will remain set.

I think I will put alarm switches, I really think the pre-boil alarm would be great to have to prevent a boil over.
Click to expand...
For only a few dollars per switch and buzzer, it's one of the simplest things to add.

Kal
 
augiedoggy said:
I find my timer useful... it is a dual function sestos timer and cost about $30 shipped... Now they have a 4 mode timer which would be even better for multiple hop additions.<snip>

the 4 mode one I will eventually upgrade to...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008KVV546/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Click to expand...

I originally didn't plan to include a timer in my build - didn't really have room and I use the brewday timer functions of Brewmate. For various reasons, I've decided to go to a larger enclosure and, since I now have room for a timer, I'm looking at the Sestos Quartic that Augie linked above. I downloaded the manual from this link and I'm confused by the terminal arrangement(shown below).

sestos-terminal-arrangement-66997.jpg


It doesn't appear to have an alarm relay and I don't understand the functions of "Gate", "A" and "C". Also - any tips on programming would be helpful. Can someone(Augie?) enlighten me?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
PapaFoxtrot said:
I originally didn't plan to include a timer in my build - didn't really have room and I use the brewday timer functions of Brewmate. For various reasons, I've decided to go to a larger enclosure and, since I now have room for a timer, I'm looking at the Sestos Quartic that Augie linked above. I downloaded the manual from this link and I'm confused by the terminal arrangement(shown below).

sestos-terminal-arrangement-66997.jpg


It doesn't appear to have an alarm relay and I don't understand the functions of "Gate", "A" and "C". Also - any tips on programming would be helpful. Can someone(Augie?) enlighten me?
Click to expand...
Its been a few years and this is a little different that the dual made one I have but I believe you can setup "A and C" as alarms by using the NO (normally open relay) contact point and applying the voltage required to power the alarms through there... mine has an actual reset option the wire an external reset button which I did rather than use the one on the unit face. maybe the "start" function here would operate the same way. I'll be honest I'm confused by the instructions myself.. I see the alarm for a and c but not the other time periods? stop could also act as a pause possibly.. I really with I took better notes.. sorry.
 
kal said:
Yes. The PID has 2 temp alarms: One will turn on when the temp is hit on the way up, the other when it's on it's way down.

Doesn't matter what you're doing or where the temp is going. If you have the upwards temp alarm set at 208F, when the PID passes 208F and stays above 208F, the alarm condition will remain set.


For only a few dollars per switch and buzzer, it's one of the simplest things to add.

Kal
Click to expand...
mistake quote. Please disregard.
 
I use the timer on my Kal panel all the time. Very convenient that it's right there on the panel. Also very functional for me, I use it every time I brew for mash times, mash out time, sparge time, (I keep notes to see how long it takes me to get to my pre boil volume, so I can be more accurate on the flow rates, and it helps with efficiency), and boil times. I use the alarms as well to alert me and I think it's a great feature to add if you are contemplating it for your build.

John
 
My plan is to go with stand alone (aka not wired in) timers so they can go with me in case I got to grab something and lose track of time. I think battery powered timers and plan on putting magnetic strips on them to attach to the panel or I can remove and put in my pocket and the timer will alert where I am not at the panel, or I can see how much time I have left.

In addition, building my panel for back to back brewing so figure I will need two timers to track all that is going on.

I will have my PID's going to an alarm to let me know when I have hit my target temp so I can move on to the next step.
 

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