Bittering hops...just IBUs?

Hi all,

As a newbie with only 6 batches under my belt (but with a full-fledged obsession already...yikes!), I've been wondering about the use of low AA hops as bittering agents that I see in a lot of recipes. Most of what I've read about bittering hops (in Palmer etc.) seems to say that start-of-boil additions contribute only alpha acids (not flavor), so I'm just wondering about recipes that call for low AA hops such as Kent Goldings, Willamette, Fuggles, etc. that I see fairly often.

So, my question for more experienced brewers is...
Do you choose bittering hops for additions at 60 minutes (or more) for reasons beyond their AAs? I'm just curious what people have found through experience, because if it's just about the AAs they contribute, it would seem better to opt for using 0.25 oz. of Warrior (for instance), rather than a whole oz. of Fuggles or Willamette. What's your experience been?

artguy said:

Hi all,

Most of what I've read about bittering hops (in Palmer etc.) seems to say that start-of-boil additions contribute only alpha acids (not flavor),

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At best that's an oversimplification. Bittering hops may not yield as much direct flavor as later additions but they do come through and your choice will effect the overall flavor profile of the beer. I wouldn't trust the aggressiveness of an American hop like Warrior to bitter a beer finished with a British Noble like Fuggles or Goldings. At the very least your bittering hops should be from the same family as the later hops unless you are looking for a different effect. If you are mixing hops and don't want an flavor influence to the later hops choose a know neutral flavored higher alpha type like Magnum or Nothern Brewer.

Most of my beers are first wort hopped. If I use All Saaz, ts gonna be good beer.

I have used the high alpha hops for bittering and/or first wort hopped. So far, so good. My system works better with lots of whole hops.

I am sampling my house ale that was first wort hopped with Simco. The rest was Cascade. Its good beer. Have one...

BigEd said:

At best that's an oversimplification. Bittering hops may not yield as much direct flavor as later additions but they do come through and your choice will effect the overall flavor profile of the beer. I wouldn't trust the aggressiveness of an American hop like Warrior to bitter a beer finished with a British Noble like Fuggles or Goldings. At the very least your bittering hops should be from the same family as the later hops unless you are looking for a different effect. If you are mixing hops and don't want an flavor influence to the later hops choose a know neutral flavored higher alpha type like Magnum or Nothern Brewer.

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While true, it's dependant on style. To do an IIPA with Saaz(a wonderfully spicy hop) you would need to boil 3 times what you need for absorption. For many styles were the hops are not in the forefront a small amount of high AA hops will replace several oz's of low AA hops.
I've used Galena and Horizon to bitter an ESB and while not proper, it was good

There are 6 major bittering compounds and the ratios vary. So, even if you can get the same IBUs, the bittering profile most likely will not be the same. Any beer that would use Fuggles or EKG for bittering, probably won't be too bitter or use many hops. Although I do use Columbus frequently for bittering, hops aren't all that expensive, so for low IBU beers I stick with low AA hops.

I used to think that the IBUs were all that mattered for a sixty minute addition, but I recently got a bunch of cheap Green Bullet hops from my LHBS. "They just aren't selling, but there recent and fresh" said the guy. So I got four ounces at half-off, and I've used them for a couple of brews for the bittering hops. The beers are fine, but they certainly have a different flavor than the recipes that altered to use the Green bullet hops in. Not bad, just different.

Designing Great Beers has a good section on hop flavoring compounds and how some hops add a very noticeable aroma even at 60 mins.

I think that since there are so many bittering hops, each one has their own distinctive qualities...I think flavor is involved in the initial bittering of the wort...just like if you used any citrus as a bittering agent...Lets say you made a very sweet sugar water solution, and divided it into 4 1 ounce glasses...then squeezed in 1 tbs of fresh grapefruit, lemon, lime, and orange, one to each glass. Each one is going to bitter the liquid...but each one is going to impart unique characteristics to it....

I think it is the same with bittering hops...I think each variety has it's own distinctive characteristics....

This is a great question. No doubt there's a historical influence (for instance, British beers will use East Kent Goldings or Fuggles because, uh, that's what they've always used) but keep in mind that when considering your bittering addition, the isomerization (i.e., utilization of the bittering, how much bitter you'll get) depends on both the alpha acids of the hops as well as the wort's initial gravity. The British styles such as the mild, bitter, even special bitter, are what we might consider having "low" hop bitterness. Even a British IPA will have fewer IBUs than many American APA, not to mention American IPAs.

So if you're trying to bitter an Imperial IPA with Saas (AA about 4), you're going to get a ton of vegetative matter in the wort. Conversely if you're trying to bitter a light pilsner with Zeus (AA about 16), even with a good gram scale, you may over- or undershoot.

So that's another good reason aside from those already mentioned to go with the "usual" kind of hop.

I find these days I lean more toward a clean and neutral bitter hop (such as Horizon, if I can find it, Magnum, etc.) and get my flavor and aroma additions from other varieties.

jsullivan02130 said:

I find these days I lean more toward a clean and neutral bitter hop (such as Horizon, if I can find it, Magnum, etc.) and get my flavor and aroma additions from other varieties.

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See it is interesting that you used the words "clean and neutal" to described your preffered bittering hop, which implies that there are others that aren't......that they aren't "invisible" in the palate...

I went for a walk and was thinking about this topic...and wondering if the word is "flavor" that I am referring to maybe it is something more intrinsic....something noticeable but unquantifiable.....

Revvy said:

I went for a walk and was thinking about this topic...and wondering if the word is "flavor" that I am referring to maybe it is something more intrinsic....something noticeable but unquantifiable.....

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wow that's deep...

Thanks, team, very helpful responses! To push the question a bit further, has anyone ever done side-by-side comparisons with different bittering hops in otherwise equal recipes? Or made a change to a bittering hop in a new batch of a recipe that made a big difference to the beer? Just curious...

artguy said:

Thanks, team, very helpful responses! To push the question a bit further, has anyone ever done side-by-side comparisons with different bittering hops in otherwise equal recipes? Or made a change to a bittering hop in a new batch of a recipe that made a big difference to the beer? Just curious...

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I don't know if anyone's posted a thread on it, but we do something on here called a SMaSH brew, which stands for Single Malt and Single Hop. You make a dase beer with one grain, and use on hop for bittering/flavor/aroma...some people make multiple smashes keeping the same grain, and change up the hops...

If I stumble upon any commparison smash threads I'll link them...though I will tell you, Argentinian Cascade does not make for a yummy SMaSH https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/smash-advice-mo-argentinian-cascade-92765/

I have made English bitters using Centennial hops and then doing flavor, aroma and dry hops with English hops. I would challenge anyone to identify the bittering hops as being out of style.

Revvy said:

See it is interesting that you used the words "clean and neutal" to described your preffered bittering hop, which implies that there are others that aren't......that they aren't "invisible" in the palate...

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That's a great point (and this is a potentially great thread!). From what I understand (though I'm also a relative noob), for the majority of American and English style ales, one can pretty much use a clean bittering hop for the 60 min addition, than use other, lower AA% hops for flavoring and aroma. I've done that on my last 3 beers (all American or English styles), and it seems to have worked out pretty great. Magnum and Galena seem to be the 2 hops most often cited as "clean and neutral," so those are what I've been using for bittering. I've been really happy with the results so far, and they've tasted pretty authentic to me, FWIW.

But it also seems like, from what people seem to say, that styles that don't fit the more standard American or English ale profile depend on having flavors that one can only get from bittering with one of the "less neutral" hops. So if I were making a Belgian or German or something else like that I'd probably be more careful to stick to the hops called for in the recipe.

This is how I understand things, at least - I'd be happy to be further enlightened by someone more experienced!

bhatchable said:

wow that's deep...

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Not really, look up the debates as to whether or not umami exists as the "fifth taste." I was thinking somewhere along that line.

Line up 5 different smash type beers with 5 different bittering hops. You know/detect (because do we really "taste" the bitterness of THIS addition?) Each hop is bittering the wort, and you know it's bitter, and yet each one seems to have it's own individual "character."

Ranging from "clean" as palefire refered to it, to the least clean...
Think about it, if a "clean and neutral" hop is bittering without tasting bitter, then what are we perceiving? Is it a taste or is it something like a beer umami???

Revvy said:

Think about it, if a "clean and neutral" hop is bittering without tasting bitter, then what are we perceiving? Is it a taste or is it something like a beer umami???

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Yet another good question ... the way I'm thinking about it, a "clean and neutral" hop is as close to simply bittering as you can get. That is, it just adds bitterness without any of the other components of taste - no sweetness or sourness or unami or whatever. It wouldn't be "bitter without tasting bitter" but "bitter without any other tastes."

I don't have enough experience to know if this is merely a matter of style or not, though - i.e. while a hop like Magnum doesn't add much other than bitterness to most American and English ales, is Magnum inappropriate to, say, Belgians because it adds a flavor that doesn't fit into that style, or is it inappropriate for Belgians because it doesn't add something that that Belgians typically require? - so I'm mostly speaking from my limited experience.

I have recently been trying HIGH alpha hops like Warrior and Summit for bittering (We're talking 15-18% alpha). And I have to admit that there seems to be somewhat of an objectionable bitterness "that just wont go away" (as one beer judge wrote on one of my entries to a competition). I think this is the "harsh" bitterness that some writers have discussed with the new very high alpha hops. Its more intensely felt in less malty beers like pilsner. I am thinking that I will stay away from these new very high alpha hops for bittering in the future. I have bittered with Centennial in the past with no ill effects.