Brewing Doppel bock: inputs/feedback

Hi
I’m about to brew my 3rd DB, the first 2 went down the drain due to too high fermentation temps/fusel.

Now I’m planning the next for tomorrow, my recipe looks as follows, and I would love some comments on it and opinions in general.

I skipped decotion and steps, and decided to keep it simple this time. Planning on a 65-68c(149f-154.5f) 1 hour-75 min. mash. Maybe 40 min. at 65c and 40 min. at 68c (the last ones went way to far, 1010 or something) so therefore this time a “single” infusion mash(5 gallon). Will it be too sweet?

Vienna 2000 g
Munich 15 ECB 2200 g
Munich 25 ECB 2200 g
Cara pils 400
Cara Crystal 400
Chocolate dehusked120

Hallertauer mitt. 20g at 60 min.
Northern 10g at 60
Hallertauer 20g at 30

My calc says:
22 – Bitterness
0.29 - BU/GU
OG 1077 FG 1020 at 73 att. With 2206 bavarian lager.

Will primary at 7-10c for 14 days
Secondary at 2c for 42 days.

I’m also planning on a 3 hour boil all in all to get some mora cara taste.

What do you think?

I would question why you want more "cara" taste. This beer should be about the base malt not specialty malts. It also shouldn't be sweet but malty. There is a difference. A little actual sweetness following the main flavor burst of malt is OK but that sweetness should then subside into a drier finishing flavor. Personally I would eliminate the caramalt, lower the main rest temp to 65/66C, boil for 75 minutes and boost the bitterness to the mid to high 30s to balance the high OG of this beer.

Is certainly aiming for a sweeter DB(or maybe confusing sweet/malty), tried Hirshbräu Doppel Bock, which I can see is on the sweet/malty side, and I was blown away so therefore aiming at the sweeter DB.

But you can certainly be right about the caras being too much, I have yet the first to succeed, so almost just shooting blind.

Would you just go with the Vienna/munich combination then?

Bonde said:

Is certainly aiming for a sweeter DB(or maybe confusing sweet/malty), tried Hirshbräu Doppel Bock, which I can see is on the sweet/malty side, and I was blown away so therefore aiming at the sweeter DB.

But you can certainly be right about the caras being too much, I have yet the first to succeed, so almost just shooting blind.

Would you just go with the Vienna/munich combination then?

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Bear in mind these are my opinions and there are certainly many ways to interpret the style but I just prefer bock without a lot of the cara/crystal malt influence. Yes, my choice would be mainly Munich and Vienna malts with perhaps a bit of German dark malt (Carafa) for some extra color. Go ahead and use a little caramalt if you want but I do think a little goes a long way here.

So... Just checked OG after 11 days - 1026 and still fermenting. I moved the beer to D-rest now after 8-10c for 11 days.
Also tasted a zip or 5, and this is where i'm a bit worried. I had this taste in all my dark beers, first one i dumped because of brett and one is still carbonating (a dark porter). I also seem to detect this taste in most comercial porters I’ve had lately, is this maybe just the taste of a green beer? The most recent porters I’ve had have been pretty young.

It’s Kind of a harsh/very bitter taste. Both detectable in aroma when smelling and also when tasting.

Can I expect a Dobbel bock to be close to target regarding taste, or should this kind og lager simply not be tasted this early, and will it maybe gain greatly from lagering and not just the regular 10-15%(IMO).
I mean, I will certainly not be drinking a dobbel bock with this kind of bitternes, and If for instance the beer should be tasting close to nice by now (as with all my IPAs, Wits etc. after 10-15 days of primary) I will certainly be dumping this one.

One maybe/worry:

- I tried getting the worth temperature as far down as I could, 15-20c with my chiller, and then an hour or so outside in -10c, I figure it was a 15c worth at worst. Can this affect the fusel alcohol level so greatly that it will make the beer undrinkable because of fusel. Right after cooling I went to my 8c fridge. It was fermenting after aprox. 12 hours. Ive heard of people pitching at 25c and ending up with great DBs’

Hopefully someone can help an, by now a bit disillusioned brewer with the 3 db looking to be a disaster.

harsh taste in dark beers:
i've had this problem as well. I still have this problem. My current theory is pH. This last porter I used TH's spreadsheet to estimate and made additions, as I don't have a meter. It's still in the primary so I don't have anything to report.

lagering seems to help this. I'd lager your dopple for a good 5 months. Noonan recommends 2 weeks for every 1.008 OG.

For the few lagers that I've done, I've been very careful to get the wort down to the fermentation temperature before pitching, so ~48-52F, but I would think that 15C would be okay. What size starter did you use, or how much yeast did you pitch? I normally do ~4L, which I think has helped me avoid a lager fusel disaster. I will say that I have struggled with getting a Doppelbock of sufficient maltiness which I hope to rectify this year.

Baron von BeeGee said:

For the few lagers that I've done, I've been very careful to get the wort down to the fermentation temperature before pitching, so ~48-52F, but I would think that 15C would be okay. What size starter did you use, or how much yeast did you pitch? I normally do ~4L, which I think has helped me avoid a lager fusel disaster. I will say that I have struggled with getting a Doppelbock of sufficient maltiness which I hope to rectify this year.

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Pitched at Bavarian 2206 wyeast smackpack, that I stepped up 3 times, to a final 1gallon starter. Decanted before pitching. I’m not sure though that it’s fusel I taste, I’m only at my 16th brew, so not that experienced.

Recipe was 2500gr Vienna, 2500 Munic T1 and 2500 Munic T2. 200gr. Chocko dehusked and 200 carafa I special.

I have been extremely cautious when dealing with the fermentation temp in my fridge. Never above 10-11c ambient, most of the time at 8c.

I would actually describe the taste a little bit as Iodophor smels, but a bit more harsh. Worth tasted wonderfull before fermentation, sweet of course but in the right direction.

I used Iodophor for sanitizing, but made sure to rinse with boiling water afterwards, so I strongly doubt it would be an excessive amount of Iodophor.

Did anyone ever have a drinkable Doppel bock, or at least tasting nice, after primary (10-12 days)?

I don't think I've had any lager that tasted great after that amount of time, not Doppelbock nor Pilsener. They smell pretty funky when they're fermenting, and remember that the lagering period is when the yeast cleans up compounds that give off-flavors.

Your recipe looks pretty good to me, fwiw, so I'd say just let it lager out and see where it stands then. Kaiser taught me that Doppelbocks are traditionally brewed around Christmas/New Year and enjoyed at Lent, so you've probably got a few months to go yet.

Bonde said:

Pitched at Bavarian 2206 wyeast smackpack, that I stepped up 3 times, to a final 1gallon starter. Decanted before pitching. I’m not sure though that it’s fusel I taste, I’m only at my 16th brew, so not that experienced.

Recipe was 2500gr Vienna, 2500 Munic T1 and 2500 Munic T2. 200gr. Chocko dehusked and 200 carafa I special.

I have been extremely cautious when dealing with the fermentation temp in my fridge. Never above 10-11c ambient, most of the time at 8c.

I would actually describe the taste a little bit as Iodophor smels, but a bit more harsh. Worth tasted wonderfull before fermentation, sweet of course but in the right direction.

I used Iodophor for sanitizing, but made sure to rinse with boiling water afterwards, so I strongly doubt it would be an excessive amount of Iodophor.

Did anyone ever have a drinkable Doppel bock, or at least tasting nice, after primary (10-12 days)?

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10 days!? i haven't had an low abv ale that's good after 10 days.

I imagine it will probably not taste that great for another couple months.

motobrewer said:

10 days!? i haven't had an low abv ale that's good after 10 days.

I imagine it will probably not taste that great for another couple months.

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I had one that actually tasted pretty good, but then again could have been masked by the massive hoping. An IPA around 7.5%(IBU 70), actually enjoyed the glass halfway after 14 days.

So I’m just thinking, that normally my beers tastes okay after “primary”/First part of the ferrmentation. Of course a lot of for example “taste of yeast” disappears. Have had a few I had to wait a month or two before drinking with joy, and only had this off taste when using US05 (I know…. what everybody describes as very clean.)

IMO/during my relative short brewing career, a beer that is pretty much undrinkable after primary or carbonation, would never turn into something that will be truly great.

I know patience is virtue especially when it comes to lagers, but still I have a hard time believing, that my beer will turn into a completely different animal, simply by the touch of time. And here I mean really different, from undrinkable to great just by lagering.

I’ll say that in my mind, the beers I have brewed only changed 10-15% at best during lagering, though it’s hard to put an exact figure to how much in percentage .

Bonde said:

IMO/during my relative short brewing career, a beer that is pretty much undrinkable after primary or carbonation, would never turn into something that will be truly great.

I know patience is virtue especially when it comes to lagers, but still I have a hard time believing, that my beer will turn into a completely different animal, simply by the touch of time. And here I mean really different, from undrinkable to great just by lagering.

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it most certainly will. give it time.

Baron von BeeGee said:

I don't think I've had any lager that tasted great after that amount of time, not Doppelbock nor Pilsener. They smell pretty funky when they're fermenting, and remember that the lagering period is when the yeast cleans up compounds that give off-flavors.

Your recipe looks pretty good to me, fwiw, so I'd say just let it lager out and see where it stands then. Kaiser taught me that Doppelbocks are traditionally brewed around Christmas/New Year and enjoyed at Lent, so you've probably got a few months to go yet.

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Funky would be a good description.

Think that it smelled pretty malty the first day or two and then it went funky, chemical/sulfur/idophoric, now both in smell and taste.

But it surely is a consolation, to hear that it might be normal that it’s off after such a short period of time.

I’m close to giving up on lagers for now, had 4 gone bad, or at least I thought they were bad. One down the drain but still have my other doppelbock, that had the exactly same off taste. But last time I was sure it was due to 13c lagering & fermentation temperature = fusel.
The other my dry hoped pilsner (yes I know is out of style, and now I know why)

put it between 1-2C and let it sit there for a few months. Then try it again.

motobrewer said:

put it between 1-2C and let it sit there for a few months. Then try it again.

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Is the 1-2 not normally because of better yeast flocculation? Would 6-10 in my basement dark room not be just as great if I let it sit until fx april? where temperature here in DK starts to rise above 0c again.

You've got to stop jumping the gun and dumping everything. I think some of the off flavors you are getting are a result of fermentation and the d-rest/lager period are meant to remove these flavors. Even if you thought that some of your previous batches were "off" why not bottle a couple and see what happens? That a lot of money to be throwing down the drain when you arent happy with the result that early on in the process. For a 5% beer, maybe you could determine what it will taste like by tasting after 3-4 weeks, but a dark, and very strong, lager I would bet it will change a lot between now and 8 months from now.

usually, the colder it is, the shorter you can get away with lagering.

6C is ok, 10C is kind of pushing it. Like I said, Greg Noonan, author of New Brewing Lager Beer, recommends 2 weeks of lagering for every 1.008 of OG.

So, your OG is 1.077. (77/8) *2 = 19.25 weeks. colder is better.

Agree w/motobrewer, and Noonan's book is the bible (for lager or ales). Ideally, you'd like the drop the temperature ~1-2C/day to a lagering temperature of ~1-2C and let the yeast slowly do its thing over a period of time. It will scrub most of those off-flavors if you let it.

Baron von BeeGee said:

Agree w/motobrewer, and Noonan's book is the bible (for lager or ales). Ideally, you'd like the drop the temperature ~1-2C/day to a lagering temperature of ~1-2C and let the yeast slowly do its thing over a period of time. It will scrub most of those off-flavors if you let it.

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Do I understand this correctly, that I should drop the D-Rest I initiated today?

If so, would you now recommend to put it back in the fridge and let It drop a degree or two a day from approximately 12c or to just finish the d-rest and cold crash?

let it finish the d-rest (did you detect any diacetyl?)

then, drop it down by 1-2C / day until you hit your lager temperature.

then, let it sit for 4 months.

motobrewer said:

let it finish the d-rest (did you detect any diacetyl?)

then, drop it down by 1-2C / day until you hit your lager temperature.

then, let it sit for 4 months.

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No, at least not what I believe to be diacetyl (only got my 16 batches under my belt, so a lot to learn still), but thought better safe than sorry, and it cannot do any harm right?

yeah it should be fine.

fyi, my 1.056 oktoberfest spend 1.5 months in the primary, and it could have stood another month at least (my friend didn't give me enough warning). i think you'll be surprised when you open this in a few months.

remember, 4 months lagering, then you can bottle/keg.

Everything I have read about Doppelbocks (but I am NO expert!) says they need MINIMUM 3-4 months aging in bottle or keg to achieve the best taste. Even better is 6-9 months or longer. They are supposed to taste harsh and gross at two weeks. You've gotta be patient and not dump stuff down the drain. Just get some more buckets for gosh sakes.

I just brewed my first Bavarian Dopplebock from Midwest's all grain kit yesterday. Wow what a challenge! The yeast for mine was White Labs German Bock Lager yeast. The optimum temperature for fermentation according to the WL website is 55degF for primary.
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp833.html

Reading many of the user comments, it seems most people start fermentation at about room temp, ferment 5days-2weeks at 55-60degF (the two weeks time and temp should take care of dicetyl), then drop the temp and lager for as long as you can stand it (3-5months). I was thinking of lagering/aging in the keg while carbonated. Crossing my fingers on this one for sure! I double pitched two vials into about 5.5gal of wort. Comments please! Thanks for staring a Doppel thread. Sub'd!

MikeRoBrew,
That's a great yeast for higher attenuated lagers but not the best choice for Traditional or Doppel Bocks imo. I like the WLP833 German Bock Lager yeast much better for Bocks (exclude Maibocks/Hellesbocks from this). I have a vial of 833 and will be making a big starter, then a Vienna Lager, then a Doppelbock with the cake from the Vienna, all in January after Christmas break. Two vials isn't nearly enough yeast for a big lager, it really isn't even enough for a 'regular' gravity lager (it'll work and you'll make beer but it isn't ideal).

You can pitch at room temp but it's generally better to pitch cold. Also, I'd ferment a big beer like a Doppelbock colder than 55*-60* F to try and keep the fusel alcohols down. I'd reduce it to 50* F max and prob more like 48* F.

EDIT: Noticed the OP recipe was using Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager. IMO, this isn't the best yeast for a big beer because it can get too fruity in high-grav brews.

Bonde said:

Do I understand this correctly, that I should drop the D-Rest I initiated today?

If so, would you now recommend to put it back in the fridge and let It drop a degree or two a day from approximately 12c or to just finish the d-rest and cold crash?

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One reason I pitch at fermentation temps is to avoid the necessity for a d-rest, so I don't do them. If you were going to do one, you would wait until primary fermentation finishes, raise to d-rest temp for a day or two, then *slowly* (1-2C/day, not cold crashing) lower the temperature to lagering temps for several months. This is where the beer really gets cleaned up, and for a big beer like a Doppelbock, I believe it takes several months or more.

Spanish -

Thanks for the reply. I'm a bit confused because you say 833 is not the best for Doppelbocks, then you say you have a vial of 833 and will be making a doppelbock with it??? I'm very sorry but I went back to the website and the kit actually came with 830 German Lager yeast.
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/bavarian-doppelbock.html (mine was the AG version)
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp830.html

Should I be noticing krausen like ale yeast or is all the activity on the bottom of the ale pail? I have heard some people like to re-aerate with a sanitized spoon on day 3 or so, can anyone confirm that? The starting OG should be around 1.08 I THINK, I will check when I get home (broke my hydrometer doh)

I think Spanish got confused. I think he meant the WY2206 isn't a good choice for dopple.

WLP833 is the Ayinger strain. they make a pretty darn good dopple. the best in my opinion.

Sorry Mike, moto is right, I got mixed up there. I thought you were using the WLP830 instead of the 833. The 2206 comment stands.

FWIW, Wyeast offers a Private Collection yeast called Hella-Bock yeast (#2487) and if you go to the yeast comparison page it says both the WLP833 and the Wyeast 2487 are from the Ayinger brewery. I actually contacted Wyeast about this and they said Wyeast 2487 is NOT from the Ayinger brewery (IIRC it's actually the Samichlaus strain). So either the WLP833 isn't from Ayinger or Wyeast 2487 and WLP833 are not the same yeast. I've used both but they were so far apart and other differences that I can't really compare. I did like the 2487 though.

A little follow up:

I just bottled the first mentioned DB, and what a difference  I have absolutely never had any beer changing this much during lagering. Now I think I would actually go to a bottle of my own DB instead of popping a Salvator from my cellar.
I’m impressed and can now surely chime in, and understand why a lager beer is actually called a lager.

A little extra info, added a bit of Bavarian yeast at bottling, and carbonated to 2.6. I’m looking so much forward to be tasting this one for real.

Bonde said:

A little follow up:

I just bottled the first mentioned DB, and what a difference  I have absolutely never had any beer changing this much during lagering. Now I think I would actually go to a bottle of my own DB instead of popping a Salvator from my cellar.
I’m impressed and can now surely chime in, and understand why a lager beer is actually called a lager.

A little extra info, added a bit of Bavarian yeast at bottling, and carbonated to 2.6. I’m looking so much forward to be tasting this one for real.

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Great! What was the FG?

It ended at 1021... OG 1079, a little low effeciency