What's Up With Wit Wort?

Hi all,

Just brewed up a Belgian Wit yesterday, using a recipe that I shamelessly stole from BierMuncher in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/just-another-brew-day-pics-99893/

I adapted the AG recipe to a PM for a 5.5 gallon batch. Near the end of the boil, I added a slurry of flour and water as described in BierMuncher's thread. Everything about the brewday went well -- hit OG on the nose (1.049), pitched at 74* F, and have lots of CO2 this morning.

Here's the question. I left my OG sample in the test jar overnight. This morning, once trub had settled, I have a crystal clear wort (see image)



Color is pretty good, and smells great. But I thought the flour addition would give this some residual "haze." Perhaps things will be different post ferment? I pitched rehydrated Safale S-33 (didn't have any Wit yeast on-hand), and I'm fermenting at about 70* to try and coax out some of it's purportedly "fruity" characteristics.

Am I destined to have a crystal clear wit? Also -- forgive n00b question, but is it customary to poiur the yeast into the glass with a Witbier? How about if the yeast isn't truely Wit yeast?

Thanks for any input!

The cloudy haze should be more noticeable when you chill the beer for drinking. Just for kicks, put your sample tube of beer in the refrigerator overnight and see what it looks like.

One of the reasons to use wit style yeast is because of it's low flocculation characteristics - it stays suspended in the beer a lot longer than many other strains of yeast. So yeast is pretty important to that style and a different yeast will produce a different beer. Not necessarily bad, but you can't expect it to be just like the original.

Awwwww! I shoulda' thought of that! Would have been so easy to just throw the hydro sample in the fridge and see what happened. Unfortunately, I poured it out (after sipping/sampling, of course) while scrubbing everything up this morning. Have to wait and see now...

One thought is that I could try chilling the first hydro sample in a couple of weeks to see how much (if any) haze I get. My last beer was brewed with similar methods (although without any wheat in the grain bill) came out amazingly clear, so I have no idea what to expect. I've never made any kind of wheat beer before, and certainly not a Wit.

If the chilled hydro sample comes up clear, maybe I could try adding another flour/water slurry to the beer at bottling time?! Thoughts on that?

Also, yeah -- I understand the Wit yeast would likely stay more in suspension. Maybe I should have tried a Hefe yeast, but in substuting the S-33 for the Wit yeast instead, I was hoping to at least get some of the fruity zing. Any thoughts on whether I should swirl the yeast and get it into the glass at serving time?

I wouldn't add the slurry at bottling time!! No No NO! Just chalk it up to experience.

I don't think s-33 will get you even close to a wit unfortunately. I got lots of pear when I used it and was really disappointed with the strain. You might have a "spiced" Pale ale now but wait and see if you have a chill haze.

It'll probably be excellent in any case and maybe you discovered something!

I don't understand why you would add flour for cloudiness at any stage of the process, cloudiness in a wit comes from the yeast. Unfortunately you used the wrong yeast. I say forget adding flour and just use a wit yeast next time.

Well it should have stayed a bit hazy because of the flour but yeah I bet the finished product will be hazy especially when you chill it. My problem with Wits is that for some reason I always get terrible efficiency when I do a wheat beer, I'm wondering if putting some 6-row in would help the wheat convert better.

eviljafar said:

I don't understand why you would add flour for cloudiness at any stage of the process, cloudiness in a wit comes from the yeast. Unfortunately you used the wrong yeast. I say forget adding flour and just use a wit yeast next time.

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Jamil Zainasheff is who I heard the flour idea from...both on his podcast and in his book, "Brewing Classic Styles".

I listened to an old pod cast of the Jamil Show today with some great wit tips in it. It wasn't Jamil doing the show but non the less good info. Explains the reasons why efficiency might be low and what to do about it, using the flour, using spices, yeast, and using citrus zest. Very informative.

The Brewing Network.com - :

I brewed this a couple of months ago, absolutely love it! Was my first AG actually, and also the first time I've felt my beer is on par with some of the store-bought craft beers. Really hits the spot after walking home from work in 90 degree+ DC heat.

sfbayjay said:

Awwwww! I shoulda' thought of that! Would have been so easy to just throw the hydro sample in the fridge and see what happened. Unfortunately, I poured it out ...

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You did WHAT!?!?!?!?!! Drink that sweet nectar man!!

Hi all, and thanks for all the responses!

Glad to hear that I'm not completely crazy regarding the addition of the flour slurry. When I was researching this recipe I found a number of posts here on HBT where people added flour to their Wit to add a permanent haze. Hopefully it will work for me, but maybe the haze won't show up until this beer is chilled...

radtek: Yeah I know the S-33 isn't a true Wit yeast, but it's what I had on-hand. Not true to style, but hopefully tasty nonetheless. Ferment started fast (<12 hours from pitching to noticeable activity) and has been pretty aggressive. I'm holding wort temp at 70*-71*, so we'll see what kind of taste comes from the yeasties. Has anyone else out there used S-33 in a beer of this style?

frambrewernw: Hopefully you're right and the flour slurry will work it's magic once everything is done and chilled. Not sure what to say about your efficiency woes. Although this is the first time I've mashed with any wheat, I had relatively good results. My grain bill was largely 2-row and flaked wheat, though, with only a small percentage of malted wheat. Since I was only doing a partial mash (5 total lbs of grain), I used wheat DME (60% wheat/40% barley) during the boil for the rest of my fermentables, and therefore a smaller % of malted wheat in the mash. My mash efficiency based on preboil gravity was about 78% -- single infusion mash for 75 minutes at 153*, then a single batch sparge at around 168*. One thing I did notice is that I got a pretty poor crush on the wheat malt with only a single pass through the grinder at my LHBS -- still had some whole kernels in there. So I just ran it through the mill a second time. Still not great (they didn't want me to tweak the roller settings), but better after 2 passes. Maybe something to consider? As I understand it, malted wheat has quite a bit of diastatic power, so it should be able to convert just fine. However, if you're using raw, torrified, or flaked wheat in large percentages, you may be right to consider a base malt with more enzymes...

Truckmann: I'm gonna listen to the brewing network show that you linked -- thanks for that! Hopefully I learn that I did a few things right on this one and pick up some tips for next time.

illin8: I just can't stomach a whole vial full of unfermented wort! I always have a taste, just to see, but usually it makes me grimace, sometimes even gag! Thank god the yeasties jump in and make everything delicious!

Thanks again -- look forward to any more advice/insights...

Adding flour seems totally weird to me for some reason. Having starch leftover in the beer, at least from what I know, leaves the beer vulnerable to bugs that can metabolize starch - which of course, the yeast cannot - and this can make your beer... yucky. Why wouldn't you just use less modified ingredients and skip a protein rest in the mash? This would get you the cloudiness you want but won't risk a case of the nasties.

I recently made a wit using a recipe from "Radical Brewing" that also called for flour. No problems. You asked at some point during this post whether the yeast is supposed to be poured or not. Hooegarden's bottles actually include instruction on a proper pour. They reccomend pouring 2/3 of the bottle and and then swirling the remaining third before pouring to allow for a nice cloudiness.

How vigorous was your boil? I boil mine for 90 minutes at a bare simmer. Wort is cloudy and almost white in color.

I got the 'bare simmer' technique from a local microbrewer who in turn got the tip from Pierre Celis himself.

Saccharomyces said:

How vigorous was your boil? I boil mine for 90 minutes at a bare simmer. Wort is cloudy and almost white in color.

I got the 'bare simmer' technique from a local microbrewer who in turn got the tip from Pierre Celis himself.

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I too did the 90 minute simmer with this recipe 3 weeks ago when I brewed it. Got the idea of either FlyAngler or Bradsul. For some reason i get them mixed up. Probably cause Bradsul has a flyfishing avatar.

the flour is most helpful when kegging. When bottling you will have yeast in the bottle that you can swirl and pour in the glass, when using a hef/wit yeast, I wouldn't do that with the OP's strain. This yeast in the glass gives your your style cloudiness. When kegging, after sitting in kegerator/keezer for many weeks, the yeast wil settle, thus not making it to your glass anymore giving you a crystal clear pour. The flour will give that permanent haze you're looking for after the yeast has settled. Not necessary or even noticeable when bottling.

Well... ...I boiled everyting pretty good for 60 mins -- certainly wouldn't call it a "simmer." Wort was pretty cloudy at the end of the boil -- didn't see the separation and clarity shown in my original photo until the next morning. Would be easy enough to extend the boil to 90 mins and go a little easier. Have to try that next time around.

After reading everything you guys have written here, it sounds like everything will likely turn out pretty well. What I'm getting from you all is

(1) Don't swirl/pour/drink the S-33 yeast (as you would with a true Wit yeast), and
(2) The flour addition I made toward the end of the boil should (might?) give me the haze I was looking for once everything's bottled up and chilled, although it won't contribute flavor as a true Wit yeast served in suspension would.

I can live with that, and I've got some tweaks to try next time...

IrregularPulse: I can totally see the logic behind adding starch haze via flour when kegging -- makes a lot more sense than when bottling.

Thanks for the help and input! For better or worse, the Safale S-33 has done it's job -- airlock activity has pretty much stopped after 60 hours. I held wort temps between 70* - 72* during that period, and I'm holding it now at 68*-70*. No secondary planned -- will bottle after 12 or 14 days total in primary. Please advise with any other recommendations!

farmbrewernw said:

My problem with Wits is that for some reason I always get terrible efficiency when I do a wheat beer, I'm wondering if putting some 6-row in would help the wheat convert better.

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Me too. Just recently, I've started suspecting its my crush for the wheat. Next time I do it, I am going to adjust my mill between the barley and wheat so they both have an optimal crush.

I know plenty of people do it, but I don't see the point of adding flour. Shouldnt' the Wit be cloudy enough using the regular recipe?

tetrylone said:

Adding flour seems totally weird to me for some reason. Having starch leftover in the beer, at least from what I know, leaves the beer vulnerable to bugs that can metabolize starch - which of course, the yeast cannot - and this can make your beer... yucky. Why wouldn't you just use less modified ingredients and skip a protein rest in the mash? This would get you the cloudiness you want but won't risk a case of the nasties.

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You are thinking way too far into it. Just think as the flour as cheap insurance that your beer will be cloudy. This is especially important if you keg. A keg sitting in a fridge for a few weeks will clear up pretty fast. This way, you are ensuring permanent chill haze. Your method is accomplishing almost the same thing. Isn't it a lot easier to dump a little flour in than working with under modified malt and a different mash schedule? Just saying.

If you are going to get an infection, adding a TBL of flour isn't going to make it worse. Look into your sanitizing practices if this worries you.

An update on this Witbier:

Fermentation:

As discussed, I pitched rehydrated Safbrew S-33 in this Wit, obviously not a true wit yeast. Held ferm temps at about 70-72 degrees during 15 total days in primary fermenter. Vigorous fermentation obvious for first 48 hours, then pretty much no airlock activity. Original gravity was 1.050. Checked gravity at day 12 of fermentation and was kinda' bummed to find it at 1.018. Gently roused yeast to see if anything else would kick off, but checked again on day 15 to find still at 1.018. Done. That's only 64% apparent attenutation with the S-33. ABV will be about 4.2%. A bit heavy for a wit, and lower alcohol than I'd hoped for, but based on a sip during sampling, it will be tasty!

A couple of possibilities here. One is that I didn't have complete conversion during the PM. On brew day, I didn't have any iodine to test for conversion, so I just stopped the mash after 1hr 15min at 153*F. Preboil gravity was right on, but starch in the wort will still show up as gravity points. Maybe not all was converted to fermentable sugars. Also, may have been a couple of degrees too hot, which would reduce attenuation percentage...

Adding Flour:

Much discussion here about the flour addition. Whether it's the flour I added or just the ingredients in the beer, it gets nice and cloudy when cooled. I put the FG sample in the fridge and it developed a nice haze. Don't know if the flour is responsible, but it certainly doesn't seem to have "hurt" anything.


Excited to have a taste of this stuff. It's been bottled for 5 days now and it seems totally carbed -- I put 20 oz in a plastic PET bottle and it's hard as a rock. :rockin: Look forward to cracking one open later in the week, as I understand this brew should be good on the green side of things...

sfbayjay said:

Look forward to cracking one open later in the week, as I understand this brew should be good on the green side of things...

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I made a PM version of this at the end of March (added flour, still got a clear beer). It was good after a couple weeks in the bottle but it's great now.

Hmmm. Well, I'm planning to sample one of the 12-oz bottles pretty soon (after about 1.5 weeks in the bottle), but I'll definitely keep an open mind about letting it mature a bit more. I've read that wheat beers can be good "early," like within 4 to 6 weeks of brewing, so I figured I'd step up my normal sample date.

Yeah, I've read the same things. But as I've made more of them, I've realized that the emphasis should be more on drinking them quickly once they're mature, not that the date of maturity moves up all that much.

I have a hefeweizen I made in early February that still seems to be getting better. Too bad most of it's gone

Homercidal said:

I know plenty of people do it, but I don't see the point of adding flour. Shouldnt' the Wit be cloudy enough using the regular recipe?

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Wit's are cloudy partly due to the yeast sediment you swirl o the bottle and pour in. If you keg, it all settles and gets sucked out unless you siwrl you keg before each session and who does that.
That being said. I made 10 more Gallons of this sunday and forgot about the flour until reading this thread again today (Tuesday). So I'll be able to compare flour vs no flour. i also forogt about the 90 minute boil and only boild for 60, which could be why I missed my OG by 2-3 points.

Saccharomyces said:

How vigorous was your boil? I boil mine for 90 minutes at a bare simmer. Wort is cloudy and almost white in color.

I got the 'bare simmer' technique from a local microbrewer who in turn got the tip from Pierre Celis himself.

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Can you explain the purpose of this technique? Maybe in another thread if its off topic here.

Checking back in to post final results here.

This beer has been in the bottle for almost 3 weeks now and it's tasting pretty good! Took some to a BBQ last weekend and got very positive feedback from the crowd, esp. from the Blue Moon fans. (Is that a good thing?)

Anyway, here's a pic!



Not really sure that the flour addition that has been debated here did much as far as adding cloudiness -- the beer is fairly clear, esp. in the bottle. But it still exhibits some chill haze, so it all works out. If I had it to do over again I'd try a few tweaks:

(1) Try a true Wit yeast. This is tasty, but missing some of the fruity smell and taste of some quality commercial examples.

(2) Mash at a slightly lower temp, and possibly modify mash schedule to get a more fermentable wort.

(3) Don't use irish moss at the end of the boil. I did this time, and in hindsight this may be a big part of the "clear wit" issue. Duh!

All in all, a very tasty beer! Cheers to all and thanks for the input...

I just floated a keg of wit last night, I drank it fairly young and it was great. It started a bit cloudy like a wit should be but at the end it was getting clear.

When I emptied my brew kettle after brewing my wit, I discovered a clump of flour/dough in the bottom. Next time I plan on scooping some wort out of my kettle, stirring in the flour so I can make sure it's all dissolved, and then add it back in.

Jack said:

When I emptied my brew kettle after brewing my wit, I discovered a clump of flour/dough in the bottom. Next time I plan on scooping some wort out of my kettle, stirring in the flour so I can make sure it's all dissolved, and then add it back in.

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I just added mine to enough water to dissolve it in, mix it up and dumped it in.

LOL! Yeah, adding Irish Moss might not be a good thing for a Wit. Looks tasty! I have made 3 Wits so far and now that I'm doing AG, I might need to do another since i'm out and I can compare to the extract versions I've done before.

+1 on the Irish moss or any clarifiers in a Wheat beer. Looks tasty though I am doing to do patch of Beirmunchers wit in a week or two as soon as I tap the second keg of Eds Hefe. mix things up a little

Homercidal said:

Yeah, adding Irish Moss might not be a good thing for a Wit.

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I just finished brewing my first Wit and I used Irish Moss. I did some research on HBT and it seems like most people said that since the cloudiness is mainly from the yeast, the irish moss won't ruin the cloudiness. I got the impression that it gives you a "cleaner" cloudiness (does that make sense?) Anyway, it's still in my fermenter so I'll have to see if they were right once I get it bottled!

Irish moss drops out the protein haze one is + other is - cant recall which is which. Yeast and hop haze will drop when cold so in the case of a keg if you use Irish moss then everything will drop out because the yeast ,hop and protein will drop out