Great quote from Palmer on Mash Efficiency

I don't really understand the point of this thread. RJS, it seems like you're looking for some kind of debate or argument and got frustrated that your post didn't insight one. I read the two quotes from Palmer and realized that I've always agreed with both points and moved on.

You'll find long discussions about efficiency here from high efficiency brags to low efficiency troubleshooting. The reason is, it's one of the measuring sticks for commanding the mechanics of brewing. As hobbyists, and engineers, we like to deconstruct the process and obsess about things....or not. Sure, there are people who don't care either way and that suites their personality.

Even though I don't particularly care about the economics of adding two pounds of grain to every batch, I do want to understand HOW one would achieve higher efficiency so that I can decide for myself how I want to brew.

Bobby_M said:

I don't really understand the point of this thread. RJS, it seems like you're looking for some kind of debate or argument and got frustrated that your post didn't insight one. I read the two quotes from Palmer and realized that I've always agreed with both points and moved on.

You'll find long discussions about efficiency here from high efficiency brags to low efficiency troubleshooting. The reason is, it's one of the measuring sticks for commanding the mechanics of brewing. As hobbyists, and engineers, we like to deconstruct the process and obsess about things....or not. Sure, there are people who don't care either way and that suites their personality.

Even though I don't particularly care about the economics of adding two pounds of grain to every batch, I do want to understand HOW one would achieve higher efficiency so that I can decide for myself how I want to brew.

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Correct and to the point as usual, Bobby.

Are you going to be at NHC next month?

Bobby_M said:

I don't really understand the point of this thread. RJS, it seems like you're looking for some kind of debate or argument and got frustrated that your post didn't insight one. I read the two quotes from Palmer and realized that I've always agreed with both points and moved on.

You'll find long discussions about efficiency here from high efficiency brags to low efficiency troubleshooting. The reason is, it's one of the measuring sticks for commanding the mechanics of brewing. As hobbyists, and engineers, we like to deconstruct the process and obsess about things....or not. Sure, there are people who don't care either way and that suites their personality.

Even though I don't particularly care about the economics of adding two pounds of grain to every batch, I do want to understand HOW one would achieve higher efficiency so that I can decide for myself how I want to brew.

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This is a great reply. Thanks for the contribution. If i came off frustrated than i apologize, frustration and arguments are not what i was trying to achieve here. Debate is probably more accurate.

Anyway, I guess my main point was just to inspire a thought provoking thread, make people think about or understand another perspective. It was really inspiring to me, especially because i did not know about palmers view of extracting more polyphenols with higher efficiency.

Also id like to point out to all the HBT Seniors like Bobby M, Denny, Revvy, Yooper, all the people who know their system, process and probably make great beer, that this thread wasn't really for you. Its for the people who dont understand the efficiency process. Its like you go to a thread about how to sanitize and sh$t on the OP for starting such cliche topic. So, if you dont see the point in the thread, than dont waste your time, remember, not everyone knows as much about brewing as you do and to some Palmers quote could really help them.

Thanks to all who did get something out of this and if you are as experienced as someone like Yooper, thanks for giving your opinion without making others feel like they should already know this.

Quick question on this topic.

I am fairly new so be gentle.

I did a brew a few weeks ago and missed a bunch of steps but essentially got about half of the ABV I was shooting for.

Last weekend I did another brew and took measurements throughout and ended up with a 51% efficiency after boil. This is obviously terrible.

I used the premilled grains from Northern Brewer the first brew and the premilled grains from More Beer on the second batch.

A homebrew friend of mine has a monster mill and gets much higher efficiencies.

My question is, can going from a precrushed grain, to a fresh crush on a good mill get me up 20-25% on overall efficiency, or am I missing the boat somewhere else?

I agree that good beer is good beer regardless of efficiency, but I also don't want to throw away money if there is something I can be doing to get more out of my system.

TIA

I would look at mashing process first. Could also be old grain? I don't know the exact time frame but I think you start loosing goodies around a week after milling? Crushing the grain yourself will indeed bring up your effeciency. I'm thinking 10-15% maybe?

Mashing process it what screams at me the most as a possible issue. What is your MT setup?

Also, if using beersmith for eff calculators, I have found it to be way off. I can plug in my numbers on brew day to just about any other calculator and get the same readings, low 80's. Plug in same readings to beersmith and I get eff ratings in the 60's.

Don't get me wrong, I love my beersmith. It's a great tool for me. I just don't use it for eff rating calculators.

Thanks Takuie!

I am using the 10 gal igloo cooler setup for mash. I use another for my sparge water.

I do believe the grains may have been a week or so older, which is a bit of a bummer. I guess naively I assumed they crushed, bagged, and shipped when you ordered.

I do use beer smith, is there another calc you would recommend?

tfbrews said:

Thanks Takuie!

I am using the 10 gal igloo cooler setup for mash. I use another for my sparge water.

I do believe the grains may have been a week or so older, which is a bit of a bummer. I guess naively I assumed they crushed, bagged, and shipped when you ordered.

I do use beer smith, is there another calc you would recommend?

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There's no way anyone can tell you why your efficiency is low without knowing a lot more about your process, recipes, etc. Since they were milled by Northern Brewer and MoreBeer, I would assume you got a reasonable crush. Some information we need:

-Recipes
-Mash temp
-Mash time
-Do you do any water adjustments?
-Mash pH?
-Pre-boil gravity
-Boil off rate
-Post-boil gravity
-Are you measuring your volumes accurately?
-Are you measuring gravity accurately?
-Ending kettle volume
-Volume into fermenter

I very much doubt that the age of the grain had anything to do with the efficiency. Especially because it sounds like you ordered it and brewed shortly after you got it.

Thanks Peter,

Here is the info:

Recipes
11lbs 2 row
1 lb 40L
1/2lb Carafoam
1 oz - Amarillo
1 oz - Simcoe

Mashed with 4 gal
Sparged with 5.5 gal

-Mash temp - 149 (I was hoping for 152 but missed the mark)
-Mash time - 60 mins.
-Do you do any water adjustments? (none, city water - slightly hard)
-Mash pH? 5.5
-Pre-boil gravity - 1.033
-Boil off rate - 1 gal
-Post-boil gravity - 1.041
-Are you measuring your volumes accurately? I believe so, using measurements on buckets and boil pot.
-Are you measuring gravity accurately? Using a Hanna - 1st time though.
-Ending kettle volume - 6 gals
-Volume into fermenter - 5.5 gals

Hopefully this helps give a little more insight.

Forgot to ask if it was batch or fly sparge. It sounds like fly sparge though since you have a separate cooler for your sparge water.

I wouldn't expect the crush to be bad enough to give you that low of an efficiency, especially since you said you got low numbers from two different sources. Though crushing it with your own mill set to a smaller gap will improve efficiency over most home brew store crushes.

Nothing in what you laid out sends up any red flags to me (other than the low gravity numbers obviously). When you mash in, are you stirring very vigorously and making sure you don't have any dough balls? Also, if you're fly sparging, are you avoiding channeling of the sparge water? Or if you're batch sparging are you mixing the water in vigorously? Maybe somebody else has some insights.

EDIT: Also, it would probably help to make a new thread for this kind of question. Most people aren't going to read through 5 pages of a 3 year old thread and answer a sort of related question at the end. But then again, I guess that's what I did!

HAHAHA good point.

I fly sparged.

I felt I did a good job stirring, however I really only stirred about 3 times throughout the whole brew once at mash in, once in the middle, and once at the end. Maybe I could stir a bit more.

Could also possibly just be reading incorrectly.

I used an oxygenator for the first time on this brew and pitched with one smack pack of 1056 on saturday...the thing is still floccing as of this morning - hopefully I just got incorrect readings and the beer will be fine.

Thanks for taking a look and the input!

tfbrews said:

....



Last weekend I did another brew and took measurements throughout and ended up with a 51% efficiency after boil. This is obviously terrible.



I used the premilled grains from Northern Brewer the first brew and the premilled grains from More Beer on the second batch...

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There are approximately 947 threads here titled "My efficiency was in the 50's using grains crushed by Northern Brewer." There seems to be a very strong correlation!

Vendors notoriously crush coarse for a couple reasons: (1) customers will complain less about stuck mashes, and (2) customers will have to buy more grain. Northern Brewer crushed my grains once. Once.

LOL Thanks Speed - I am really hoping that is the cause!

lol i just noticed the revival of this thread. Perhaps there was no point of it all. Im annoyed at my own posts from 2012! and haunted..