Sweet flavor in every homebrew

Hey guys I have a question. I have made 5 batches now all using extract and some specialty grains. Every one has sweet flavor. It seems to relate to the extract twang you guys talk about but, it also seems like diacytal. I have never made a yeast starter either. My brews never reach there fg. There always way to sweet they never taste like beer I buy. I know I should make a yeast starter, but that can't be the reason every brew has a similar flavor. What am I doing wrong I don't want to give up on this yet!

How "big" are the beers you are making? How much fermentable sugars are there (i.e. 8 pounds of malt extract? Are you using dry or liquid malt extract?

How long are you letting them ferment before you decide that they are done? What are you fermenting in, and what temperatures are you fermenting at? Have you tried a different hydrometer? How low is your gravity getting in comparison to what you expect?

Finally.. How long are you waiting to taste?

Not making a yeast starter is a very likely reason why your beers aren't reaching their final graivty, which means your beer will then tend to be sweet. Including your possible diacetyl issues....stressed yeast will often produce diacetyl amongst other off flavors. It's pretty much everything in a nutshell.

By not making a starter you're pretty well doomed to get beers like you are getting.

Extract twang is really a myth these days, most extract is extremely fresh and not stored in metallic cans (both things that in the old days probably caused the twang folks back in the old days described as twangy.) Nowadays extract twang is usually just what noobs blame on their beer that is usually just green and needs more time to condition. Even Forrest at Austin Homebrew has posted his belief that Twang is a myth. And he sells tons of extract.

Make a starter so there's plenty of unstressed yeast to do the job, and you will more than likely find a vast improvement in your beer.

Revvy said:

Not making a yeast starter is a very likely reason why your beers aren't reaching their final graivty, which means your beer will then tend to be sweet. Including your possible diacetyl issues....stressed yeast will often produce diacetyl amongst other off flavors. It's pretty much everything in a nutshell.

By not making a starter you're pretty well doomed to get beers like you are getting.

Extract twang is really a myth these days, most extract is extremely fresh and not stored in metallic cans (both things that in the old days probably caused the twang folks back in the old days described as twangy.) Nowadays extract twang is usually just what noobs blame on their beer that is usually just green and needs more time to condition. Even Forrest at Austin Homebrew has posted his belief that Twang is a myth. And he sells tons of extract.

Make a starter so there's plenty of unstressed yeast to do the job, and you will more than likely find a vast improvement in your beer.

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this.

not enough yeast equals a beer that doesn't finish being beer. so you get something beeresque.

Okay I'll make a starter next time for sure but what is the best way to do that I have read some conflicting views... How important is oxygenating the beer. I always shake my carboy but maybe it's not enough. I really want a clean crisp tasting beer and would like to know everything I can to get that.

thebluewaffle said:

Okay I'll make a starter next time for sure but what is the best way to do that I have read some conflicting views... How important is oxygenating the beer. I always shake my carboy but maybe it's not enough. I really want a clean crisp tasting beer and would like to know everything I can to get that.

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Plenty of oxygen along with plenty of yeast is how you get a clean, crisp tasting beer. That and using a clean yeast and low fermentation temps.

Look into the other means of adding oxygen other than shaking, and fins what works for you, along with making starter when using liquid yeast for every beer above a 1.020 OG.

The reason I say 1.020 is that IIRC if you're playing with mr malty, the very first gravity it actually says you need to use more than a single smackpack/vial on is for 1.030, it doesn't show that large of an increase in cellcount but it does show one, that's why I say if your beer is above 1.020 to go ahead an do it. I think one of them, either wyeast or whitelabs says 1.040, but I go with Mr. Malty.

yea I too would like to know what a yeast starter is!!! Are the wyeast liquid packs a form of starter? Is mixing the dry yeast in a glass of warm water a starter??

Revvy said:

Plenty of oxygen along with plenty of yeast is how you get a clean, crisp tasting beer. That and using a clean yeast and low fermentation temps.

Look into the other means of adding oxygen other than shaking, and fins what works for you, along with making starter when using liquid yeast for every beer above a 1.020 OG.

The reason I say 1.020 is that IIRC if you're playing with mr malty, the very first gravity it actually says you need to use more than a single smackpack/vial on is for 1.030, it doesn't show that large of an increase in cellcount but it does show one, that's why I say if your beer is above 1.020 to go ahead an do it. I think one of them, either wyeast or whitelabs says 1.040, but I go with Mr. Malty.

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Maybe a noon question but what's IIRC and Mr. Malty?
Did you notice a huge difference in your beers before and after using a starter assuming you didn't do them at first?
Hey thought of something else most of my brews have been brewers best kits besides a blueberry wheat which wa my own recipe.. Could this be another reason they all taste similiar even though they were completely different styles?

spam said:

yea I too would like to know what a yeast starter is!!! Are the wyeast liquid packs a form of starter? Is mixing the dry yeast in a glass of warm water a starter??

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None of the above....

Here is WHY you should make a starter.

Here is HOW to make a starter.

Revvy said:

Not making a yeast starter is a very likely reason why your beers aren't reaching their final graivty, which means your beer will then tend to be sweet. Including your possible diacetyl issues....stressed yeast will often produce diacetyl amongst other off flavors. It's pretty much everything in a nutshell.

By not making a starter you're pretty well doomed to get beers like you are getting.

Extract twang is really a myth these days, most extract is extremely fresh and not stored in metallic cans (both things that in the old days probably caused the twang folks back in the old days described as twangy.) Nowadays extract twang is usually just what noobs blame on their beer that is usually just green and needs more time to condition. Even Forrest at Austin Homebrew has posted his belief that Twang is a myth. And he sells tons of extract.

Make a starter so there's plenty of unstressed yeast to do the job, and you will more than likely find a vast improvement in your beer.

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I disagree with the arguement that not making a starter will result in under attentuated beer. Unless you are pitching 6 month old liquid yeast into a large beer, this most likely not the case. Under pitching more often results in long lag times and increased production of chemicals by the yeast that our palates find displeasing. It's my opinion that the OP is using a low fermentable malt extract. Try and do a forced ferment test on you wort. This is to say, ferment some of your prepared wort with a small amount of yeast at room temp, on a stir plate, while your main batch is fermenting. By giving the yeast lots of O2 and higher temps on the stir plate you are ensuring that they will ferment everything they can and you will reach the absolute terminal gravity of that particular wort.

BenS said:

I disagree with the arguement that not making a starter will result in under attentuated beer.

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You can disagree with me all you want...that doesn't make you right. Your Pitch rate WILL contribute to your beer's attenuation.

From Wyeast.

Do You Know How Much Yeast You Are Pitching?

Consistent and reproducible fermentations are not possible without consistent and adequate pitch rates. Quantity of yeast added to the fermentor will affect every aspect of your finished product, from attenuation level, to flavor and aroma profile, to clarification.

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If you're not pitching enough yeast, your not going to get the attenuation you want. And as I stated above, according to mr malty, even a beer with an og of 1,030 should have a starter.

*shrug*

spam said:

yea I too would like to know what a yeast starter is!!! Are the wyeast liquid packs a form of starter? Is mixing the dry yeast in a glass of warm water a starter??

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Revvy said:

None of the above....

Here is WHY you should make a starter.

Here is HOW to make a starter.

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Technically yes. Practically no. Smacking a wyeast pack does "start" the yeast, albeit minimally. Re-hydrating dry yeast does "start" the yeast which is why there are much lower reported lag times when comparing re-hydrated to non re-hydrated ferment times. Neither smacking or re-hydrating will actually grow new yeast, which is what you are usually trying to accomplish by making a starter.

thebluewaffle said:

Maybe a noon question but what's IIRC and Mr. Malty?
Did you notice a huge difference in your beers before and after using a starter assuming you didn't do them at first?

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IIRC = "If I recall Correctly"

MR MALTY = Mr. Malty's Pitch Rate Calculator.

It helps you figure out just how much yeast you need to use based on the gravity of your beer, age of yeast etc.

I read that you should always make starters with liquid yeast, so I've never not made them unless I used multiple packs/tube of yeast because I didn't have time to make a starter, used dry yeast, or was making a smaller test batch where I only needed a small amount of yeast. So I can't tell you how much of a difference, since experts like John Palmer, and Charlie Papazian, and folks on here said to make great beer, you make a starter, so that's what I did from the first time I used liquid yeast. Why compromise? It's not difficult to do.

If you're not pitching enough yeast, your not going to get the attenuation you want. And as I stated above, according to mr malty, even a beer with an og of 1,030 should have a starter.

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Also from wyeast

The Activator™ has a minimum of 100 billion cells of pure, ready-to-pitch yeast, plus an internal nutrient packet. The Activator™ is designed to inoculate five gallons of wort (up to 1.060 SG) providing the pitching rate recommended by professional brewers.

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So who knows the correct pitching rate? They obviously contradict each other. I checked the whitelabs website for cell count in their vials and was unable to find the number. Perhaps the Mr Malty website was designed with whitelab vials in mind?

The OP didn't say anything about which yeast they used. Comments about not using a starter might be premature. Most kits come with dry yeast, so that's likely what was used. If we are to believe Mr. Malty in that dry yeast usually contains 20B cells/gram, unless the kit came with Muntons or Coopers smaller packages of yeast, the pitch rate should've been adequate.

That's why I originally thought the culprit might be a highly unfermentable malt extract and suggested a forced ferment test.

So maybe it's the type of extract I'm using not nevvesarily the yeast. I believe they have all been LD Carlson extracts... All brewers best kits. Is there a brand or type of extract that ferments cleaner? All of my yeasts have been dry packets a few were safale us-05.

i often use dry yeast, s-05 is a go to for all my ipa's, and i never make a starter. i put the recomended amount of go-ferm rehydraton nutrient in there and let 'er sit for half hour, after many many tastes, nobody has commented on diacytl. a few have said that i use to many flavor hops, to which i reply "go away, that's impossible,"

What is go ferm rehydration?

"Go Ferm" is a yeast rehydration nutrient. Mead makers often use it to insure that the yeast have the best start on life before fermenting.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/go-ferm-rehydration-nutrient-10-gm.html

Are you sprinkling the yeast directly onto the wort, or letting is hydrate in warm water a few minutes before pitching?

GNBrews said:

"Go Ferm" is a yeast rehydration nutrient. Mead makers often use it to insure that the yeast have the best start on life before fermenting.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/go-ferm-rehydration-nutrient-10-gm.html

Are you sprinkling the yeast directly onto the wort, or letting is hydrate in warm water a few minutes before pitching?

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yeah, you really want to "bloom" it in some warm water for 15-20 minutes, and while doing that, may as well mix some go ferm into the water first. it's used widely in mead, cider and lots and lots of professional winemakers.

So I still don't have any concrete reason on why my brew tastes the way it does. I don't think I've ever dealt with anything more sensitive since trying to figure out women....

Describe your procedure. Temps, fermentation length.

Are you doing a secondary? I ask because many Newbs prematurely transfer to secondary and stall out their yeast.

This may be wrong but cant you burn the extract on the way into the kettle if your not carefull, thereby caramelizing it and making abunch of unfermentable sugers. Yeast starters are the best way to go about things. But ive used them and not used them and never had a problem with final gravity, just some lag time.

I need more info about your brewing process.

I personally doubt its due to not using a starter, but i also need to know the type of yeast used.

If your using a packet of dry yeast there should be no problem, actually if pitching a vial of White labs in a 1.060 or less wort you should be fine too.

I would personally look at your type of extract and how fresh it is. When i did extract batches, sometimes i had a hard time reaching FG, but i came to find it was because of the extract not the yeast.

Although underpitching can produce off flavors from the yeast being stressed, there is no reason it would not ferement out if using quality fresh yeast (unless your making high OG beers 1.070+).

I agree with others that making a starter and aerating do make a difference and i personally do both. But you said youve had this problem on the last 5 batches so i doubt its due to the lack of a starter. Hell i didnt make starters for any of my beers for many many batches.

Okay here is my procedure, all have been brewers best kits so a more detailed procedure is under the recipes on this website.

http://www.brewersbestkits.com/recipes.html

I use a 5 gallon pot on a turkey fryer.

Add 2.5 gallons of my water. (I am on a well)

Bring to 155 to 160 and steep my grains for 20 to 30 minutes depending on recipe.

Take out grains then bring to a boil. Then add all or most of my extract, again depending on recipe. I usually have my friends stir the pot while I am doing this.
Wait for it to come to a boil again and then start the schedule with my 60 minute hops and so on.

Ice water bath. I do usually put ice in my brew from my freezer to cool it down faster. I know this is not advised, but the flavor is not an infection it is more of a diacetyl flavor.

Wait for it to get cool enough then I pour the brew into a 5 gallon plastic bucket that has a mesh strainer on it. Pull the strainer out then pour the brew into my carboy. Add the top off water. I then shake the carboy vigorously, and pass it off to anyone else that wants to.

Finally I add the yeast...I usually shake it again to get the yeast in.
Like Ive said before all dry yeast no starter.

3 packs were Safale- 05

1 was a Nottingham Ale yeast.

Another was a "lager type Yeast" as I have written down i my notes.


Fermentation

I follow the 1,2,3 method.
Primary,secondary,bottle. Fermentation is usually between 65 and 68 degrees. I ferment in my basement on concrete.

I'm leaving my double ipa that's fermenting now in the primary for 5 weeks after reading a lot of what you guys have said since it's such a big beer. The bitterness will hide alot of the sweet flavors but I'll see how much of a difference it makes. Never had the water tested.

Revvy said:

You can disagree with me all you want...that doesn't make you right. Your Pitch rate WILL contribute to your beer's attenuation.

From Wyeast.



If you're not pitching enough yeast, your not going to get the attenuation you want. And as I stated above, according to mr malty, even a beer with an og of 1,030 should have a starter.

*shrug*

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Make up your mind, you love saying people have been making beer for 100's of years with no problems. Those people didn't oxygenate their beer, and they still made beer. There is also no guarantee that they made yeast starters.

So will they yeast take care of themselves, or do they need to be pampered with oxygen and starters???

Yes, it may make better beer, but I had 10-15 extract and 5-10 all grain batches before I made a single yeast starter. Those were a combination of dry, white labs, and wyeast.

Guess what, that all hit their FG without any starter and without any oxygen. While it may not be the best way to make beer, IT STILL MAKES BEER.

When I first got on this board I read your post like they were gospel. Now I just see you as a bully that likes to copy and past the same crap and try to intimidate people into thinking if it isn’t your way it isn’t correct

JeepDiver said:

When I first got on this board I read your post like they were gospel. Now I just see you as a bully that likes to copy and past the same crap and try to intimidate people into thinking if it isn’t your way it isn’t correct

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Let's not be to harsh JeepDriver. Revvy has helped out many new brewers on this forum with his consistent advice on fermentation conditions. Like you, I agree that there are different approachs to solving brewing problems and most home brewers start taking their own approach as they become more experienced. On top of that, its an internet forum, people should take everything they learn here with a grain of salt.

Back to the OP, how old are these kits you are using? Specifically the malt extract. If the kits are more than 6 months old, try ordering a fresh kit from northernbrewer.com or another online retailer that moves a large volume of extract to ensure it is as fresh as possible. I really believe that the malt extract is your culprit. But take that with a grain of salt.

JeepDiver said:

While it may not be the best way to make beer, IT STILL MAKES BEER.

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Yeah, but the OP was specifically asking about how to make his beer better and deal with under-attentuation. Therefore, just MAKING BEER isn't really the objective for the OP, is it? Its improving his beer. Therefore, it seems reasonable to provide information about things which might not be required but which might address his issues. granted, the starter talk is now moot given that we've learned OP is using dry yeast.

discnjh said:

Yeah, but the OP was specifically asking about how to make his beer better and deal with under-attentuation. Therefore, just MAKING BEER isn't really the objective for the OP, is it? Its improving his beer. Therefore, it seems reasonable to provide information about things which might not be required but which might address his issues. granted, the starter talk is now moot given that we've learned OP is using dry yeast.

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Yes, but Revvy stated that if you didn't make a starter that your beer wouldn't hit the expected FG. That is BS. Unless every kit the OP has done has been over 7-8% his issue is not makeing a Starter. Preaching that you have to make a starter to make beer correctly is BS and doesn't help anyone address the current problem.

JeepDiver said:

Yes, but Revvy stated that if you didn't make a starter that your beer wouldn't hit the expected FG. That is BS. Unless every kit the OP has done has been over 7-8% his issue is not makeing a Starter. Preaching that you have to make a starter to make beer correctly is BS and doesn't help anyone address the current problem.

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What I read from Revvy was that not making a starter was a likely reason, not that you can't hit your FG without a starter, but you can interpret his words however you want. Doesn't change the fact that ranting about how you'll make beer either way doesn't help an OP who wants to make better beer.

Anyways, for the OP, main causes of underattenuation:
1) Cold temps. If you're between 65 and 68, this is unlikely, but you can always try raising the temp to 70-72 after the first 4-5 days of fermentation to see if this helps drive attenuation.
2) Unfermentables in wort. When doing extract, you have no real control over this, other than to try other extracts.
3) Less than proper yeast pitch and oxygenation. Yeast need oxygen to build their cell walls and reproduce, so if you start with too little yeast and O2, you potentially could have attenuation issues. Since you're pitching dry yeast, as long as the packs aren't too old or mishandled, it shouldn't be a big problem if your OGs are 1050ish or less. Theoretically, if you're low on yeast but high on O2, they should be able to reproduce enough to make up for it. If you're high enough on yeast and low on O2, they should be fine. Its if you're low on both you could have problems.

How far off are you on your final gravities?

thebluewaffle said:

Fermentation

I follow the 1,2,3 method.
Primary,secondary,bottle. Fermentation is usually between 65 and 68 degrees. I ferment in my basement on concrete.

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Is 65-68 air temps, or wort temp? If your basement is 65 degrees, and your fermentor is on a concrete floor, then that is going to suck even more heat out of the wort, possibly putting you below the yeast threashold. If this was the issue though, I would expect you to see over carbonated beer and/or bottle bombs when you warmed the bottles up to 70ish and they yeast wake back up.

Revvy said:

If you're not pitching enough yeast, your not going to get the attenuation you want. And as I stated above, according to mr malty, even a beer with an og of 1,030 should have a starter.

*shrug*

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Not too many ways to read that

I've "under pitched" plenty of times and alwyas got the attenuation that I expected

JeepDiver said:

Yes, but Revvy stated that if you didn't make a starter that your beer wouldn't hit the expected FG. That is BS.

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I agree with you on this.

I doubt the OP's issue is the lack of making a starter. He did use three different yeasts and had a high FG. So that tells me it's not the yeast.

I would look elsewhere, possibly your well water?

As was mentioned, is it possible that the LME, upon being added to the boil, is carmelizing? thebluewaffle, are you pulling your BK off of the heat while you add and stir in your LME? Seems if you aren't, there is a change of carmelization/scorching and you could be making fermentable sugars into unfermentable ones. This would be reflected in proper OGs and higher FGs. Just a thought that I saw was mentioned, but hadn't heard you confirm or deny what you have done.

With all due respect, some of the others here have a point. When I read Revvy's response about not making a starter I thought the same thing - Whaaa??? All of my beers that have been under 1.060 I've only used one Wyeast pack and all have attenuated fully, some better than Beersmith's estimates. I only recently started making starters since I have a 1.060 Pumpkin Ale and a 1.077 Weizenbock. But before that I've never had this overly sweet issue so it does sound awkward to say not making a starter is the likely reason.


Rev.