Online Palmer Nomograph, EZ Water Calc, and some questions. Help me understand!

So, I know that a bunch of people are using TH's EZ Water Calculator. I watched Bobby's videos, but I'm new to this and am wondering if I'm seeing how to do this stuff correctly.

So, I found this website the other day: http://nomograph.babbrewers.com/

It's the same nomograph from John Palmer's How To Brew. For me it's easier to find my salt amounts than EZ's. I can just use the sliders and rather than inputing numbers and in many ways, "guessing" I can just do some real quick slider maneuvering and get my SRM in the right range.

I then take the numbers from the online nomograph and plug them into the EZ Water Calculator. This also helps me to see if the Chloride:Sulfate ratio is OK for the kind of beer I'm brewing. Here's the thing though: I DON'T KNOW WHAT THESE RATIOS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE! How am I supposed to know whether a beer is supposed to be "very malty, malty, balanced, bitter, very bitter, etc." How do you know this? Where can I find this information?

Also, I don't know what to use for my Target Water Profile. In the online nomograph, I use the sliders to get me into the right SRM range. That's it. I'm brewing a 24SRM beer so I add the appropriate amounts of salts that put me in the right range and that's it.

But that doesn't mean this matches any sort of "Target Profile." I don't even know if it's going to taste good. I know there are the "famous" profiles, but as many have said on here, "Who cares. Build a water profile that works for that kind of beer, not just because it's used to brew a famous beer." But I don't even know where to start figuring a "profile" for the type of beer I'm brewing. How much do I need to worry about this? If my SRM range is good and the Chloride to Sulfate ratio is good, is that all that's really necessary?

So, will you help me make sure I'm doing this right and give me some further clarification?

Here's my STARTING WATER profile:
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 28
Mg: 8
Na: 23
Cl: 28
SO4: 18
HCO3: 56
Mash Volume: 6.65gal

I used the nomograph and figured that I should add 6g of CaCO3 and 6g of NaHCO3. This puts my SRM range at 22-27. I'm brewing a Samuel Smith Nut Brown Ale clone with an SRM of 24. My Chloride/Sulfate ratio is 1.56 that according to EZ Water Spreadsheet means I'll have a "Malty" beer. From others I've asked they said this ratio is good. But what about the other salts? Flavor is important obviously and just because the SRM and Sulfate:Chloride ratio is good doesn't mean I don't need the other stuff. I've read that sulfates highlight the bitterness and flavor of hops while chlorides accentuate malty flavors. But how do I know how much of what to add to a certain recipe? I'm assuming this is where the "Target Profile" comes into play, but again, I don't know where to find profiles other than the "famous ones" and again, many people are saying, "Don't use those."

Sure, you can use it as a starting point, but what does that even mean? I don't yet have the knowledge necessary to know what to adjust and what to leave alone.

So my questions in summary:
1. Am I good if my SRM is in the right range and my Chloride:Sufate ratio is good?

2. How am I supposed to know whether a beer is supposed to be "very malty, malty, balanced, bitter, very bitter, etc."? Where can I find this information?

3. How do I know what kind of "Target Water Profile" to use? Where can I get good water profiles for the various kinds of beer?

4. How do I know the other salt amounts to add if I'm only adjusting for SRM and Chloride:Sulfate ratio? Flavor is obviously important. I read that sulfates highlight the bitterness and flavor of hops while chlorides accentuate malty flavors. But how do I know how much of what to add to a certain recipe?

WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING??!!

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/497


I found the "Waterganza" shows with Jamil and John Palmer very helpful in learning about water. I listened to them multiple times to take it all in. It is about 4 hours of great water education. Do you use any brewing software like Beersmith? I use Beersmith and it has a function for adjusting your water that makes it very easy. MUCH easier than any of the spreadsheets I have found. I just use Palmer's nomograph to get my residual alkalinity in range and then decide how much I want to highlight the hops. With an IPA I would go with a sulfate to chloride ratio of at least 2:1.

Oh, I should ask you- Are you brewing all-grain or extract?

I'm brewing All-Grain.

Yeah, I would listen to the four water shows on "Brewstrong". That will give you a good starting point as to what is going on. I think they cover it much better than could be covered in the forum format. Plus, Miss Information tends to hang out on the forums quite a bit.

I found the answer to question #2. I downloaded the Brewers Association Beer Style Guide. That's great. Exactly what I was looking for.

I'm beginning to understand that once the SRM is in the right spot, I can use the other salts to accentuate either the bitterness of the hops or the sweetness of the malt. This in a lot of ways has to do with the chloride:sulfate ration but also what I want to bring to the surface of the beer. It is part of the beer style. The amounts almost seem to be trial and error and even personal taste within certain limits guided by the style. Is this true?

As far as the questions though, if someone could give me just a BRIEF answer to the three other questions, that would at least help me confirm or deny my budding understanding of this component of brewing.

Again, you can be VERY BRIEF. I'll try to find the "Why's" via the radio show and continuing research. Thanks again. Those water shows are a gold mine.

1. Am I good if my SRM is in the right range and my Chloride:Sufate ratio is good?

2. How do I know what kind of "Target Water Profile" to use?

3. How do I know the other salt amounts to add if I'm only adjusting for SRM and Chloride:Sulfate ratio? How do I know how much of what to add to a certain recipe?

1. By SRM I am guessing that you are talking about your RA being in the right range for the target SRM of the beer? Then yes, that is the most important item for mash Ph. Your chloride to sulfate ratio is then adjusted according to style and taste.

2. There is no easy way to answer that. You can look at the classic brewing cities water profiles, but that is not always accurate. We don't know if these breweries do anything to their water also. I was listening to Jamil talk about testing the water from Pilsen and it is not even close to as soft as you see in the "classic brewing cities water profiles." I would say start with a lower overall mineral content at first and tune it in over time to the styles that you tend to brew. It is more of a trial and error thing. I would not go overboard and add a bunch of salts. I just brewed an IIPA that I made water for and I think it was something like Ca 68 HCO3 72 Mg 9 SO4 118 Cl 55 for a target SRM of 8-9.

3. You are going to have to use some sort of calculator to make it easier. There are various spreadsheets available, including Palmer's on howtobrew.com . Do you use any brewing software? I use Beersmith and there is a function for adjusting water right in the program. I found that this made understanding what to add very easy. I thought it was much easier than the various spreadsheets. And with the software, you can save water profiles that you have created and use them again or adjust them.


Oh and I would ease into the extremes on the list of Very malty and very bitter. You wouldn't want something to be harshly bitter or malty. Kind of like adding too much salt to your food, it will have the same effect in your beer.

Thanks Machine (and everyone else). Those answers are helpful. I've started listening to the Brew Network water podcasts. They are great! My general impressions seem to be correct and you've also confirmed those. There's two parts to salt additions and two reasons for it.

The FIRST reason you add salts is to get the RA into the right range for the particular beer you're brewing and its SRM range. This is done to ensure your pH will be in the right place for not only taste, but also conversion.

The SECOND reason you add salts is to put your sulfate:chloride ratio into the right range to bring out the flavors of either the hops (higher sulfate:chloride ratio) or the sweetness of the malt (lower sulfate:chloride ratio).

Your analogy of adding salt to food is the same one Doc used in the water podcast I'm listening to. Salts for pH (the right RA for the SRM). Salts for flavor (Chloride:Sulfate Ratio/Flavor). That's it.

I know there are probably still a few errors in my thinking, so if anyone has further input, that'd be great. Thanks. I'm already feeling MUCH more comfortable about this whole subject.

Yeah, I got to a point where it just clicked and I understood the method behind the madness. I am still at the point where I am experimenting with it on my system to dial in my recipes.