Schwarzbier confusion- Sinamar or carafa?

So I am doing a schwarzbier (insert Star Wars puns here) and in my research I am finding recipes that range from only using Pilsner malt and Sinamar (Weyermann's colorant made from Carafa malts) to recipes that call for up to .75 lbs of Carafa III, .5 lbs crystal 60 with Munich as the base malt in a 5 gallon batch.

If there is no flavor added from the Simamar, is this just a black pils?

According to this BYO article, it should taste and smell like a pale pilsner, but be black in color....then according to this article the beer should have some roast character, even some chocolate and dark fruit undertones....

Further, it looks like there are tricks to get color and just a little roast character (avoiding highly roasted taste/astringency): Adding the dark grains late in the mash and grinding Carafa in a coffee ginder and sprinkling on top of the grain bed during late sparging.

I have had a few schwarzbiers- both German, and they seem to have a touch of roast? I may need to drink them again.

Any schwarzbier experts out there?
So, what is the deal? Dark grains or Sinamar? A mixture?

Prost! Tim

Use Carafa Special II for the color and add maybe just a little chocolate malt or even less roasted barley. Carafa Special is dehusked and will give plenty of color and a touch of roastiness without the acrid burnt notes. If you have a grain mill, use it. Don't bother with a coffee grinder. Munich is a fine base malt. If you're a purist, skip the Crystal malt. If you're dead seat on a really dark beer, you can also add Sinamar. I would try the recipe without it, first.

Also, you know you're making a lager, right? Can you ferment cold?

I prefer some light roasted notes in a schwarzbier. If it's too clean, it's boring. However, it should taste surprisingly light given the deep color profile. It's among my favorite beers to use in changing the minds of the uneducated, "I don't like dark beer" crowd. They are almost always impressed.

Here is a good reference:
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style04.php#1c


...and you mean Space Balls.

Ahh, yes Space Balls. That is a horrible error!
I am ready for lagers...I do a few every winter in my basement. I am using the Wyeast Staro-Prague yeast this year. Doing a Bo Pils, Schwarz and Dopplebock. Holds at 50f with the wet towel trick in Jan/Feb , then in the kegerator at 34 for lagering.

I will do the Carafa II, I have a mill.

I think I did too much research on this beer....your advice is where I was headed unitl I started digging around.

Thanks Yuri!

My advice is to make the beer you want to make. What is attracting you to the idea of a schwarzbier? A clean, crisp, thin black Pils? Maybe a little roast in there?

I recommend the Munich base, I'd prefer that to the pale mine used. I also had a half pound of 80L crystal and a quarter of 120L, and they aren't noticeable. I think they are good for the body, but then again, that's the beer that I wanted.

TimBrewz said:

I will do the Carafa II, I have a mill.

Click to expand...

Make sure that's the Carafa Special, not the regular Carafa. The Carafa Special is the one that's dehusked, avoiding the roastyness. The regular Carafa is not dehusked, so it's going to have a harsher, roastier flavor.

Scimmia said:

Make sure that's the Carafa Special, not the regular Carafa.

Click to expand...

I made that mistake once. Carafa is REALLY strong stuff if it's not dehusked!

Is it possible to do this type of beer with a yeast strain that will ferment at ale temps. I know Annapolis homebrew sells a few "lager/pilsner" kits that they say the yeast selected can be brewed at ale temps and give a "lager like" effect.

I can't do lagers. I don't have the room for a dedicaed fridge.

Please let me know any thoughts. My boss loves this style beer and I could score some mad points.

Try Kolsch yeast at the lowest temp you can manage.

I did a comparison of a lager yeast vs Nottingham at the low end of its temperature range for a Schwartzbier and I really could not tell the difference. The recipe I used had 1/2 lb C90L, 4 oz Carafa III (de-husked), 1.25 lb Munich, as specialty grains.

I had almost finished the ale half before the lagering was done.

What is 'Sinamar'? Inquiring minds wish to know...!

I'm doing my first schwarzbier tomorrow nd did "too much" research as well. My recipe uses pils as the base malt, with some munich, caramunich and carafa IIi (de-husked). It's on the lower end of the SRM spectrum at about 22, but I'm looking forward to it. It will also be my first step mash.

fastricky said:

What is 'Sinamar'? Inquiring minds wish to know...!

Click to expand...

It is an extract made by Weyermann using the Carafa Special malts. It is essentially a color additive for beer made from malted barley so it is Reinheitsgebot approved.

Thanks...!

Edit - Where do you find it?

LOL! I did and there isn't aren't any places to BUY it listed... not that I saw.

fastricky said:

LOL! I did and there isn't aren't any places to BUY it listed... not that I saw.

Click to expand...

I swear I bought it from B3 once, but they don't seem to carry it now.

My LHBS carries it and has an online store. Note that their prices tend to be a little high so if you look hard I feel you will find it cheaper elsewhere.

http://www.bacchus-barleycorn.com/c...Csid=433ff3f7ff401d782c45b54691188ef8&x=0&y=0

Any store that carries Weyermann malts can probably special order some for you from the same source.

It's a Weyermann product so there's a good chance your LHBS carries it. If not, many online stores such as Northern Brewer do.

Got it, thanks guys.

fastricky said:

What is 'Sinamar'? Inquiring minds wish to know...!

Click to expand...

Sinamar is a dark malt extract made by Weyerman in Germany to add color to beer with very little roasted character. It is somewhat controversial, as some consider it "cheating". Since it is 100% Carafa malt, it is considered legal by German Reinheitsgebot Purtiy law. It is rumored that many German Schwarzbiers are made using Sinamar as the main source of color.

I've been searching all week to find a 4oz bottle of the Sinamar extract and, after my 10th phone call, was just told that it's no longer available on the 4oz size. All they make these days is 5 liter, 10 liter and 30 liter...blah!

oh, and there's no way I'm paying $16 for it if that place above still has any in stock. The last place I called still had it on their page for $2.95

Not exactly cheap, but an option...

http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/sinamar-4-oz.html

Well, if they get it back in stock, I guess...

Matt_and_Katie said:

I've been searching all week to find a 4oz bottle of the Sinamar extract and, after my 10th phone call, was just told that it's no longer available on the 4oz size. All they make these days is 5 liter, 10 liter and 30 liter...blah!

Click to expand...

Hmmm. Sorry to hear that. I guess it is just not a popular item. I know my LHBS carried it in the recent past.

I ended up doing this recipe: could not get the Carafa II Special (or the carafa III,for that matter) so I added the carafa II at last 5 minutes of the mash . I think it worked fine. The color is not black, but pretty dark.

Ingredients:
3.0 lb Munich Malt Type 1 (Organic)
7 lb Pilsner Malt (Organic)
0.65 lb Carafa® TYPE II
1.35 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (4.1%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
.65 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (4.1%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
2liter Starter WYeast WYXL2782 Staro-Prague Lager (50-58 f)

Recipe ------------ Guideline
Original Gravity: 1.049 ----- 1.046 - 1.052
Terminal Gravity: 1.013 ----- 1.010 - 1.016
Color: 22.64 °SRM ----- 17.0 - 30.0
Alcohol: 4.79% ----- 4.4% - 5.4%
Bitterness: 24.3 ------ 22.0 - 32.0

Fermenting at 55f

cdburg said:

Not exactly cheap, but an option...

http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/sinamar-4-oz.html

Well, if they get it back in stock, I guess...

Click to expand...

They can't get it either... I checked around too and gave up.

I take a bit of Carafa III (like .25lb), mill it, and add it to the top of the mash right before sparging. Works just like Sinamar.

For those who wanted to try Sinamar and can't find it, Maltoferm is likely a reasonable substitute.

Austin Homebrew - Maltoferm

OK, so first of all thanks to all of you who replied to this thread. My first Schwarzbier-the one that I used Carafa II (which actually was the special-it was not labeled as such at my LHBS, but I was assured it was the dehusked variety by the staff) with is now a month along, and has been lagering at 36f for 20 days now. It tastes fantastic.

I did another Schwarz the next weekend, and used 4oz Sinamar, which adds 20 SRM(I was able get some at my LHBS) for coloring and 4 oz Carafa II special. Both beers were fermented with Wyeast's Staro Prague Lager Yeast, which is amazing-very clean, malty and fast. Even though the beer is only 3 weeks along, it too, is excellent. The difference between the beers is in the roast character.
The Carafa only beer is more roasty and a bit more malty, yet very clean and balanced. The Sinamar beer is very smooth and has only a subtle roasted character-it tastes more like a pils than the Carafa beer.

I plan to enter both in an upcoming competition, and see what the judges think.