Why is batch sparging better/faster ?

the_bird said:

I could cut that down further if I reconfigued my setup to begin heating the first runnings immediately - no reason I couldn't do that except I've been mashing in the kitchen for convenience.

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I'm a kitchen masher too, till I graduate to 10 gallon batches. The little one heats my MTL Cooler preheat water and the big one is a 7 gallon cheapo for mash & sparge water.



The runnings go into a heavy duty 8 gallon turkey fryer kettle.



Hmmmm Good. I can't wait to do a Kolsch this weekend.

Lil' Sparky said:

Ah, I see. You really are taking some measurements to tell. It just sounded like you weren't.

No more hand calculation by me, either. I let BeerSmith do all the work.

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I don't calculate efficiency. I set brewsmith, and if I get close, I call it a day. Yes, I take a hydrometer reading before I boil, just to see how close I got. If'n I'm a bit over, then I smile. If I'm a bit under, I smile and say this is going to be .3% weaker than I thought...oh well.

I will say, from a newbie point of view (ie: 12-15 batches total, only 3-5 being AG): I do think batch sparging is as simple as it gets. How hard can it be to pour water into a cooler with some grain and let it sit an hour, drain it and pour more water in?

I don't open the thing up to stir. I stir when I put the grains in at the beginning, and I stir when I put the sparge water in. Then the sparge sits for 15 minutes and I drain it.

Hell, I don't bother vorlaufing either. I put a nice grain bag on the end of my hose to catch anything that comes out, the rest goes right into the brewpot.

Now, setting up a sparge arm (or suitable tinfoil substitue), regulating water flow, hoping against channeling, etc, etc...it's definately not easier than: Pour water in, let sit, pour water out. It's also not that much harder either.

I've never fly sparged, so I don't know how long it takes, but I'm sure it's about the same in the end. The only difference is a little bit less equipment to batch.

In the end, if 2 brewers mash with the same grains, and come out within .005 of each other, then neither one is better.

Fly sparging really needs to take into account the tun geometry. So i prefer a manifold per John Palmer. A braid wont cut it, it will channel.

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If the braid covers the same path in the bottom of the MLT as a manifold would, why wouldn't it work ?

I don't trust peoples OPINIONS. I like facts and I like to think for myself. No apologies for that !

If I listened to people about steam mashing, I never would have tried it !

BTW: it was news to me that some batch spargers don't remix the mash. Thanks for posting that. Next time I mash, I am going to to do the fly batch sparge method. I'll fill the MLT up, let it sit for 5 minutes and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. That sounds even easier than fly sparging because I wouldn't have to watch the water levels at all. I learned something today because of this thread.

the_bird said:

Fair enough, blktre, but I'll disagree with two points:

Braid cost me $7; manifold will be a lot more than that based on copper costs.

It only takes 10-15 minutes to bring the kettle to boil after I'm done batch sparging (210k BTUs helps). I could cut that down further if I reconfigued my setup to begin heating the first runnings immediately - no reason I couldn't do that except I've been mashing in the kitchen for convenience.

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Yea, the price of copper has skyrocketed. A guy could always us CPVC, tons cheaper. Nothing against a braid, but unless you get enuff of it to use the Tun geometry, your stuck batching. Theres no room for expansion etc. So the few extra bucks of copper for versatility is worth to me....

As far as time is concerned, we just crossed each other out on your 10-15 min. waiting to boil time. I dont wait for that. So if fly sparging takes longer, it just evened itself out right there. So time cannot be a reason of debate......

You using the Banjo or the Kick A burner? Nice aint it?!

As far as time is concerned, we just crossed each other out on your 10-15 min. waiting to boil time. I dont wait for that. So if fly sparging takes longer, it just evened itself out right there. So time cannot be a reason of debate......

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That is exactly the sort of discussion I am looking for. Carry on...

brewman ! said:

If the braid covers the same path in the bottom of the MLT as a manifold would, why wouldn't it work ?

I don't trust peoples OPINIONS. I like facts and I like to think for myself. No apologies for that !

If I listened to people about steam mashing, I never would have tried it !

BTW: it was news to me that some batch spargers don't remix the mash. Thanks for posting that. Next time I mash, I am going to to do the fly batch sparge method. I'll fill the MLT up, let it sit for 5 minutes and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. That sounds even easier than fly sparging because I wouldn't have to watch the water levels at all. I learned something today because of this thread.

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Im the same as you bro..screw opinions, go and figure the daym thing out on your own!
I may be speaking w/you about your steam mash. Im currently in a 2.5 barrel brewery build and stuck on heat maintaining or stepping techniques. Steam injection is in the toolbox...

Oh, i dont think its necessary to wait after adding a batch sparge. Glad you brought that up because i remember that my eff. was not effected if i waited and stirred or didnt stir and didnt wait, just let er rip. Somebody else may have a different experience than me because of other factors such as different equipment, water chemistry, grist crush....

brewman ! said:

BTW: it was news to me that some batch spargers don't remix the mash. Thanks for posting that. Next time I mash, I am going to to do the fly batch sparge method. I'll fill the MLT up, let it sit for 5 minutes and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. Fill it up, let it sit and drain. That sounds even easier than fly sparging because I wouldn't have to watch the water levels at all. I learned something today because of this thread.

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Not sure if this was me, but I mix it with the water addition. I don't know if you'll get enough mix just filling it and draining. I haven't tried it though. I know that when I pour 3-5 gallons of 168F sparge water into the tun it stirs the crap out if, but then I just flip the pot over and let gravity do it's thing. If you're going to use a fly arm and wait to fill up over the grain bed without a stir at that point, I think you may get some clumps that are not washed by your sparge.

It's at least something to try, as I have no empirical evidence to prove it wrong. It just doesn't sound like it will be efficient.

Ill never stir my mash after i recir. and get the bed set. I still get 80% eff. and the wort is crystal clear hitting the kettle. You keep stirring, and you can forget about crystal clear wort w/o recir. again and again........

As far as clumps go, sounds like you need to dough in better. Get a decent mash paddle that breaks up clumps when doughing in. Im sure this would effect your eff. in a negative way.

I really like the sounds of batch sparging without disturbing the bed. That has the potential to be faster and even simpler.

I could program an automated system to do that as well. Pump water into the MLT until it full, then open a valve and drain it. Pretty simple.

No recirculating, no stirring.

I'll test it on my next batch.

after reading all this I don't know which method I use. I mash @ 1.25 Qts per lb.
Heat 5.5 gals sparge water to 170 add a gal. or so.volauf. when clear I add more water.sparge. Add a gal or 2 of water making sure to keep above grain bed. Until I have desired amt. of wort. I never stir after mash in. I usually use lhbs recipes and get better og's than they call for I dont know what eff. they use .I like simple and fast I usually sparge for about 1 hr

Well all I can say is that if you don't trust the opinions of some of the experienced guys on here and tell them that to their face then I'm afraid I'm not sure that they should even bother giving you the facts.
Sorry but these guys are helpful enough to tell you how they see it and what they think. Not everyone is analytical about what they do. it is a "Craft"

You'd get less rebuttal if your attitude wasn't so bad.

That being said, I look forward to the content of most of your posts and find them interesting and I belive you are trying things that others don't.

It just that you cannot demand people give you pure facts without opinions.

As far as batch sparging without mixing. Have any of you noticed any astringency or excessive cloudiness in your brews?

I would think that the PH would change quite a bit form having such a thin rinse.

I used to batch sparge. I found it easier to some degree, but my efficiency was not overly high. When I built my 3 tier rig I switched to fly sparging. A bit more finicky..but the I'm a techno geek and I like that.

In my opinion, go with what you like and know, but trying something different is good too.

If your method makes you beer the way you like it, then that is all that really matters, unless you are going to be supplying the neighborhood. (which might happen if word that you make great beer gets out). Then getting particular about efficiency, etc.. comes to order.

Has anyone read this? Interesting perspectives on fly vs. batch sparging.

orfy said:

Well all I can say is that if you don't trust the opinions of some of the experienced guys on here and tell them that to their face then I'm afraid I'm not sure that they should even bother giving you the facts.
Sorry but these guys are helpful enough to tell you how they see it and what they think. Not everyone is analytical about what they do. it is a "Craft"

You'd get less rebuttal if your attitude wasn't so bad.

That being said, I look forward to the content of most of your posts and find them interesting and I belive you are trying things that others don't.

It just that you cannot demand people give you pure facts without opinions.

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who is this referring too?

Blktre said:

who is this referring too?

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I think he is referring to me.

Brewman - I love all your posts because they are always informative and entertaining (as this thread proves), but do us a favor. Shrink up that signature…my finger is killing me from all the scrolling.

ayrton said:

I've never done fly sparging, but with batch sparging, you don't have to buy or build the tricky sparge arm. Dump, stir, wait, run off. Even if you're assuming that batch and fly sparging are equally difficult/time consuming, then batch sparging wins (to me) because of less work up front.

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dood,

i have a sparge arm you can try out if you want to use one. i've done both. i find this thread a nice debate. i hate fly sparging as far as a step, but as a process i think it is cool. that said, i am brewing two beers this week. i'm gonna batch sparge one and fly sparge one. good thread.

roggae said:

dood,

i have a sparge arm you can try out if you want to use one. i've done both. i find this thread a nice debate. i hate fly sparging as far as a step, but as a process i think it is cool. that said, i am brewing two beers this week. i'm gonna batch sparge one and fly sparge one. good thread.

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Thanks, but I'm good with batch sparging. I have a teeny tiny apartment and it's all I can do to even do full grain. Thanks anyway!

ayrton said:

Thanks, but I'm good with batch sparging. I have a teeny tiny apartment and it's all I can do to even do full grain. Thanks anyway!

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we are brewing this weekend. two beers. we are also hoping to hit up the HAHA brewclub meeting in camp hill, if you're interested.

pm me for more info or if you'd like to come brew and have a few on friday or sat.

i'm in harrisburg.

Whenever this topic comes up I cringe. Neither process is better then the other, they both make beer. Both processes have their advantages and disadvantages.

When people say batch sparging is faster it is true but you only save about 20 minutes.

It really comes down to how your system is set up. If you have a system that is set up for fly sparging then THAT is the easiest way to go. If you are brewing out of an ice chest and buckets then batch sparging will be easiest.

I have brewed both ways and for me it is much easier to fly sparge 75lbs of grain. My system is automated so batch sparging is MUCH more work.

I am a proponant of brewing beer and doing it with whatever equipment you have. Fly sparge or batch sparge, in the end you have made beer.

Please don't try to convince people one way is better then the other. It doesn't matter.....

Hi Brewman.

Having just read this whole thread I think there are a couple points worth mentioning.

In the OP, you were questioning why the claims that batch is quicker and easier and ultimately made it clear that you're searching for fact, not opinion. So, this may not all be fact, but rather generalities based on what most posters practice.

1) Quicker. You appear to be one of the exceptions among the fly spargers in that most are taking about 60 minutes to fly sparge. Has this always been the case or have you managed to reduce the time through practice and perfection of your technique? For me, the first time I batch sparged it took about 30 minutes and to this day it still takes 30 minutes: two 10-minute rests, about 2 minutes worth of stirring, 2-3 minutes of vorlaufing, and the rest to drain the MT. My point is, there's not much to perfect in terms of batch sparging and this is where the "easier" part comes in.

2) Easier. I think a big part of the "easier" claims refer to setup and equipment issues (and cost) rather than ease of the process itself. For example, at one point you stated:

brewman ! said:

The HLT sits for about the same time whether batch or fly sparging, so this is irrelevant.

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I don't understand this...I don't even have a HLT per se. I heat sparge water in a kettle and pour it all in. To do a fly sparge I would either need another kettle with a spigot or another cooler. Not to mention the sparge arm. And no, it's not difficult to get/make these, but it does require some additional money and effort.

As for the process differences? I can't speak for fly sparging, but it seems that the two are pretty much a wash. Whereas batch has more steps, fly seems to have more opportunity for error (e.g. flow rates, channeling, oversparging, stuck mashes, etc.)

It's all of these reasons that I think a lot of beginners choose batch over fly: quicker (than most fly spargers), less equipment/easier transition from extract/PM, less opportunity for error.

SP

Shrink up that signature…my finger is killing me from all the scrolling.

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Oops. Sorry. I see what you mean. How is my new sig ? Thanks.

I figured since everyone else was picking on you I might as well pile it on. My finger thanks you...and I mean that in a good way.
Oh Yah...I haven’t done any all-grain yet, but after this thread fly sparging isn’t nearly as intimidating. I will defiantly try both.

Monster Mash said:

Whenever this topic comes up I cringe. Neither process is better then the other, they both make beer. Both processes have their advantages and disadvantages.

When people say batch sparging is faster it is true but you only save about 20 minutes.

It really comes down to how your system is set up. If you have a system that is set up for fly sparging then THAT is the easiest way to go. If you are brewing out of an ice chest and buckets then batch sparging will be easiest.

I have brewed both ways and for me it is much easier to fly sparge 75lbs of grain. My system is automated so batch sparging is MUCH more work.

I am a proponant of brewing beer and doing it with whatever equipment you have. Fly sparge or batch sparge, in the end you have made beer.

Please don't try to convince people one way is better then the other. It doesn't matter.....

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smak.....youve never smacked me before like that on the other forums....:cross:

This thread just got worthless.

Ignore - duplicate post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewman !
The HLT sits for about the same time whether batch or fly sparging, so this is irrelevant.

I don't understand this...I don't even have a HLT per se. I heat sparge water in a kettle and pour it all in.

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You use a kettle, I use a pot. I don't have a kettle that large.

You pour your entire sparge water into the MLT and mash it all at once ? I can't see that being a good thing, the mash would be too dilute.

As for fly sparging, the sparge water has to stay warm for the length of the sparge, 30 to 40 minutes. From what I can see, the batch spargers are taking about 30 minutes as well, so little difference that I can see. The batch spargers might empty their HLT sooner, but its not a big deal. Overall sparge volumes are the same.

My next brew session, I will probably try the no stir batch sparge method.

I think it's safe to say that batch sparging will apeal to homebrewers who...

--want to KISS

--want to use a single kettle and a single burner for the entire brewing process. I heat all of the sparge water during the sac. rest. After adding the first batch of sparge water, stiring, and waiting about 1o minutes, I transfer the rest of the sparge water to a second old cooler for short-term storage, drain the tun into the kettle, and add the second batch of sparge water from the holding cooler.

--brew 5 gallon batches. The lifting and pouring part would be more problematic/tedious in larger quantities.

--are budget concscious. You can do it with a smaller initial gear purchase.

Blktre said:

smak.....youve never smacked me before like that on the other forums....:cross:

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You know you deserved it!!

Even Denny the batch sparge guru says it all depends on your equipment. If you are set up for fly sparging then that is the easiest way to go. Neither is "better" then the other ...

I like building toys so I built my system to almost brew by itself and fly sparging is the only way to do that....

brewman ! said:

My next brew session, I will probably try the no stir batch sparge method.

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Let me know how it worked out for you. When i did this i was using a 10g rubbermaid w/FB. Didnt effect my eff. one bit from the stirring, multiple vorlaugh technique.

avid fly sparger here

You can eliminate the mash out.

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no mashout here

No channeling.

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none here either

No monitoring.

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whats' to monitor? dough in - drop the thermometer in - cover wait

No stuck mashes.

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never had one

Better efficiency, because you re-mix the grain and water.

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highly suspect. i don't think you can reasonably prove that

http://www.mercurymagazines.com/pr1/121/12120

I transfer the rest of the sparge water to a second old cooler for short-term storage

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You are still using 3 vessels ! Boil kettle, cooler and MLT. A fly sparger could use a cooler to hold the sparge water as well. As a matter a fact, I know one that does. So no advantage to batch sparging from that point of view.

One thing that nobody is mentioning is that it appears that one needs a larger MLT to batch sparge. Whereas fly sparging can get by with a nearly full MLT when mashing, batch sparging needs a lot more headroom. Am I right ?

This gets more interesting the more we discuss it. I'm sorry the thread is/was controversial, but I'm not sorry for starting it.

*salivating at the thought of doing no stir batch sparges*. No stir batch sparges are like fly sparges that you fill up and let run dry, only you drain much faster. I really hope they work.

It might be possible to get get increased efficiency with a no stir batch sparge if you did more increments of it. Say one did 4 fill/drain cycles. Fill, sit 5, drain... 4x. It makes sense to me that each time the bed is sparged, the water throughout the bed will be sugarless and that will result in the maximum sugar differential between the grain and the sugar. That doesn't happen with a fly sparge. With fly sparging, by the time the sparge water gets to the bottom of the bed it has absorbed a lot of sugar already, so the sugar differential isn't as great and the transfer of the sugar from the grain to the water is slower.

Where do tannins fit into all this ?

brewman ! said:

You use a kettle, I use a pot. I don't have a kettle that large.

You pour your entire sparge water into the MLT and mash it all at once ? I can't see that being a good thing, the mash would be too dilute.

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Wait...are we talking about mashing or sparging?! Pour sparge water and mash it? Mash too dilute? You've confused me.

Anyway, no, I don't pour the entire sparge water, I do it in two equal.......

batches.

brewman ! said:

You are still using 3 vessels ! Boil kettle, cooler and MLT.

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Jeebus, you're not being very reasonable about this. All I said is that batch sparger will likely appeal to homebrewers who are looking to KISS.

Yes, you need a third vessel of some sort, but it could be just about anything. I use a second, completely unaltered cooler (doesn't need to be drilled or anything.) Or, I could collect the first runnings into a pot of some sort and hold it there for a few minutes while the second batch of sparge water is still in the brew kettle. It's an easy workaround requiring no specialized equipment.

There are many options--my basic point is that I think it's easier to intially "cobble" together the gear required at more minimal cost/specialization for a batch sparger.

One thing that nobody is mentioning is that it appears that one needs a larger MLT to batch sparge. Whereas fly sparging can get by with a nearly full MLT when mashing, batch sparging needs a lot more headroom. Am I right ?

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Yes, I think you're right about this. The cooler I use for an MLT is 8.5 gallons, so I don't have any problem with that for 5 gallon batches.

brewman ! said:

You use a kettle, I use a pot. I don't have a kettle that large.
You pour your entire sparge water into the MLT and mash it all at once ? I can't see that being a good thing, the mash would be too dilute.
As for fly sparging, the sparge water has to stay warm for the length of the sparge, 30 to 40 minutes. From what I can see, the batch spargers are taking about 30 minutes as well, so little difference that I can see. The batch spargers might empty their HLT sooner, but its not a big deal. Overall sparge volumes are the same.
My next brew session, I will probably try the no stir batch sparge method.

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One thing to consider is with batch sparging you only need to worry about your sparge water temp when you add it. That is at two separate times. With fly you have to maintain it constant the entire 30-60 mins. Probably not difficult but with the batch sparging I can heat up the water in a smaller pot in three steps.
1. heat the mash-in water, do mash and drain
2. heat the first half of the sparge water, add to MLT and drain
3. heat second half of sparge water, add to MLT and drain
To the newbie I am it sounds very simple, and I can do this method by only buying a cooler and installing a cheap SS braid (Actually I am going to try with a jumbo strain bag and original spigot first).
I'm not sure where I need the extra head room for batch sparging either. I'm thinking I can get as much as 12 lbs of grain in my 5 gal cooler using the above method.
So what am I missing? (Besides of course experience)
Craig

cweston said:

I think it's safe to say that batch sparging will apeal to homebrewers who...

--want to KISS

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I knew there was a reason I didn't batch sparge....:fro:

I'm not sure where I need the extra head room for batch sparging either. I'm thinking I can get as much as 12 lbs of grain in my 5 gal cooler using the above method.

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From what I am reading, the batch spargers are doing 2 rinses per batch. If thats the case, you'll need to add several gallons of water to the mash vessel on top of a normally mashed grain bed. With fly sparging you only need an inch of sparge water over the bed.

With the cost of coolers these days I'm sure its not a deal breaker. I just point it out because it IS a difference and it affects the equipment selection.

Now, for those that stir their mashes, do you like the rectangular coolers better than the cubes or rounds that might give a deeper bed ? They would make for easier stirring.

Monster Mash said:

I knew there was a reason I didn't batch sparge....:fro:

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I hear ya!

I should close this on the grounds that we don't allow religious discussions...

Oh yeah, batch sparging is more better.