Belgian Golden, stuck at 1.030, suggestions?

searched for ideas on here and couldn't find specifics, so sorry if this is already covered or in the wrong place:

I made a belgian golden strong a la Jamil's recipe, and it's stuck at 1.030, and am wondering what to try next.

details:

all extract, 8.5 lbs. pilsner lme.
3 lbs. plain table sugar

made a 2 liter starter with WLP 570, no stir plate, but I made sure to give it a good shake quite often for 48 hours. I shook the carboy like crazy for awhile to aerate. pitched at 64, let it slowly ramp to 80 over 10 days.

on top of this, I moved 200 miles away. I checked grav about a week before and it was at 1.030. I didn't want this thing to get to shaken up, but didn't have any options, so i was forced to transfer it into a secondary.

I thought about making a starter of some chico yeast or something similar and pitching at high kraeusen. I thought about repitching the same yeast, but am not sure if i should do a starter for it. If i did it can't be too big because it's no near the top of a five gallon carboy. I even contemplated beano, but that would be an absolute last resort.

suggestions??

I made the same beer and had the same problem this beer I ended up dumping it.

Stir up the yeast with a sanitized spoon and add a teaspoon of yeast nutrient. If you have an O2 stone you could give it a quick shot of O2 for 10 seconds. Warm it up to 80*F.

A lot of Belgians don't like to finish unless they are over 75*F, you have to rouse the yeast and warm them since they have flocced out and gone dormant. O2 and yeast nutrient would help to wake them up and get them going again.

thats the thing. It sat in the back of my car for six hours being agitated. I'm keeping it around 72. I dont have an o2 stone. Thats why im debating between a repitch of the same yeast or just a safale us-05

Jamil advises to re-mash your extract if you are doing this brew. Regular extract is mashed at a very average temp to make a moderatlely fermentable wort, but it's got too many non-fermentable sugars to get a beer of this strength down to 1.009 - 1.007 for the style.

Too late for this technique for you, but he says to do a partial mash with some high power base malt (pilsner, or some 6-row maybe) and add your extract in the mash. You are then effectively re-mashing the extract, and the enzymes from the grain chomp down on the sugars in the extract.

If you've already aggitated and ramped it back up to 80F without any further activity, I would think you should make a really vigourous, fresh starter of WLP 001 and add that. Jamil says that the starter MUST be in active fermentation for this though. Once it goes to sleep, it might not wake up again in the beer.

And if nothing works, then add either some Beano, or some Brett yeasts, rack again and then wait 2-3 months

I just started this same recipe 2 days ago, so I'll keep my eyes peeled for the same problems though.

I couldn't find the OG for your brew but you might be almost fully attenuated. 570 is 77.5%, with an OG of 1.15 and your FG of 1.030 you have maxed the yeast. To drop this example any further you would need to finish with 099(hi grav yeast) or maybe champagne yeast.

It's because you added all the sugar during the boil. Add a pound during the boil and the rest of it as fermentation slows down.

my og was 1.078.

I thought about adding the sugar in increments, but with a sudden move, I spaced it out. I definitely plan on doing this for any new belgian brews. Im just now at the point where i realized I should have done things different, but am now stuck with what I got. So I'm gonna make a 500 ml starter of us-05, and pitch at high kraeusen. If nothing, i guess its beano. thanks for the suggestions

BeerPressure said:

It's because you added all the sugar during the boil. Add a pound during the boil and the rest of it as fermentation slows down.

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Uh oh! I did my batch the other day with 2lbs of table sugar at the end of the brew instead of spreading it out. Hope it turns out OK.

Too many egg rolls.

(some folks'll get this)

I wouldn't expect this to go much below 1.020. Even with 05 your still dealing with about 75% attenuation under perfect circumstances. I think it will still be very drinkable if you can get it to drop to 1.023. BTW whats the beano do? I have never used it.

Beano has an enzyme that converts non-fermentable starches to sugar. The problem is that it doesn't address the problem of the yeast not eating the sugars that are there. Tends to dry the beer out and it takes a long time.

Don't add O2 at this point. My first BGS did the exact same thing and I was able to get it down to 08 and it has won several ribbons. Pitch the us-05 and let it work for a couple weeks. On my second batch I was able to get it to attenuate fully by swirling the carboy daily as soon as you see fermentation slowing. I have done this with 6 different belgians now with great success. I also add all sugar to beginning of boil and have no issues. I do brew all grain though so your extract may not be as fermentable. Hope this helps. Derek

Hey, my version of this is on day 8 now. Its still bubbling from the airlock every 5-10 seconds or so. Had a gravity reading of 1.011-1.012. Is at 76F right now. I had just brushed my teeth before tasting, which makes everything taste weird, but it tasted really light just now. I guess I do need to ramp it up to 78-80 for the next 2-3 days. That'll get some funk in it.

I would repitch a nice, healthy starter of a highly attenuative yeast. I would not add o2 at this stage, and if you've read my other posts, you'll know i'm not afraid of oxygen.

DeathBrewer said:

I would repitch a nice, healthy starter of a highly attenuative yeast.

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I think maybe I don't need to after all. I just took a hydro reading: 1.005-ish at about 75F (so 1.006 maybe!). I'm guessing this is a low as its going to get, which is fantastic. I was shooting for 1.006 anyway. This is day 12 of fermentation, btw.

Recap: I re-mashed my dry extract with my pilsner malt, and added some Beano to the mash, which was 148-147F / 90 min. Big, 2-stepped starter of wlp530 required a blowoff tube. I'm guessing these are the factors that led to such a low gravity.

ghpeel said:

Recap: I re-mashed my dry extract with my pilsner malt, and added some Beano to the mash, which was 148-147F / 90 min. Big, 2-stepped starter of wlp530 required a blowoff tube. I'm guessing these are the factors that led to such a low gravity.

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Congrats, sounds like everything came together on this one.

DeathBrewer said:

I would repitch a nice, healthy starter of a highly attenuative yeast. I would not add o2 at this stage, and if you've read my other posts, you'll know i'm not afraid of oxygen.

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Yeah as long as the beer still has actively fermenting yeast they will consume the O2. My saison stopped at 75% atten. so I added a quick burst of O2, alpha amylase (essentially Beano in powdered form), yeast nutrient and a pack of Montrachet. A week later I have an active secondary fermentation, about 8-10 bubbles/min. Looks like I'll get it down to the 85-90% attenuation I wanted.

so i made a 1L starter with US-05, waited till it was really chuggin then pitched it. Havent checked grav yet but it is actively fermenting. Im keeping it around 76 and making sure to give it a little swirl everyday.

Heat ramp and a slow 'n low mash for next time is in order I think. I just bottled a Belgian Golden Strong which started at 1.082 and ended up at 1.005, even lower than I expected. I used the duvel strain WLP570, a 135min ramped mash, from 100F to 170F, added the sugar the 3rd day of fermentation, and moved the carboy to a warmer room a few days after that. This puppy is DRY, I'll probably have to age it for quite a bit.

I really just don't get how a beer with a huge % of table sugar and fermented quite warm (78-80F for a bit) will turn out so good, but a bunch of folks swear by it, so I'm trying it.

I think I'll move it to secondary at some point to free up my main carboy. Does anyone have any recommendations for a temperature schedule once it's done with primary fermentation?

BeerPressure said:

It's because you added all the sugar during the boil. Add a pound during the boil and the rest of it as fermentation slows down.

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Huh?????

ghpeel said:

I really just don't get how a beer with a huge % of table sugar and fermented quite warm (78-80F for a bit) will turn out so good, but a bunch of folks swear by it, so I'm trying it.

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It shouldn't have a huge % of table sugar. It has a high amount, but very little in comparison with the rest of the ingredients.

Poobah58 said:

Huh?????

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Never heard of high krausen additions? I would recommend adding additional sugars when the wort is actively fermenting, however, and not when it's slowed down. You want to catch it at it's peak.

The statement was the fermentation stalled because he added all the sugar at once. This is not true. Doesn't matter when you add the sugar. Like BD said, some people like to hold some sugar to add AFTER fermentation is well under way. This makes the initial fermentation easier for the yeast because the SG is lower to begin with. But to claim the fermentation stalled because none was held back is not correct because the yeast got started regardless...

Fermentation can easily stall when the yeast are not prepared for their environment. If you do not have a proper pitching rate, plenty of nutrients, low temperature, excess sugars, etc.

Sure, there are lots of factors and it may not have stalled BECAUSE of that one incident, but at that point you're just arguing semantics.

My buddy made a 24% Barley Wine (LGI would approve) ALL extract, by stepping it up over time. Do you think that if he would have put all the extract in at once and pitched some yeast that it would have finished fermentation?

Recipe I used had 3# cane sugar, and it turned out EXCELLENT.

Not too many yeasts that can even get started at that level.

I'm a fan of high krausen sugar additions VS boil additions using the argument of hostile environment. I had my current 1.095 OG stick at 1.028. I began re suspending the yeast every other day and a week later have it down to 1.016. This was not possible in the previous high grav batches I have done. The difference in process was late sugar additions. All previous batches stopped by 1.022 using boil additions and making a hi grav starter to help avoid the sugar shock. Starting with a lower grav wort to kick the yeast off and then replacing the sugar with a slight increase at high krausen has affecttivly lowered FG. It taste good but hot. What do you expect at 10.37%? After 9-12 months this should be a very fine Piraat clone.

Poobah58 said:

Not too many yeasts that can even get started at that level.

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Perhaps quoting a post could tell us what the hell you are talking about.

Poobah58 said:

Not too many yeasts that can even get started at that level.

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Not too many people who could do it, either. He's a very patient, organized, methodical brewer. And the stuff is pretty damn tasty.

DeathBrewer said:

Never heard of high krausen additions? I would recommend adding additional sugars when the wort is actively fermenting, however, and not when it's slowed down. You want to catch it at it's peak.

Click to expand...

Poobah58 said:

The statement was the fermentation stalled because he added all the sugar at once. This is not true. Doesn't matter when you add the sugar. Like BD said, some people like to hold some sugar to add AFTER fermentation is well under way. This makes the initial fermentation easier for the yeast because the SG is lower to begin with. But to claim the fermentation stalled because none was held back is not correct because the yeast got started regardless...

Click to expand...

DeathBrewer said:

Fermentation can easily stall when the yeast are not prepared for their environment. If you do not have a proper pitching rate, plenty of nutrients, low temperature, excess sugars, etc.

Sure, there are lots of factors and it may not have stalled BECAUSE of that one incident, but at that point you're just arguing semantics.

My buddy made a 24% Barley Wine (LGI would approve) ALL extract, by stepping it up over time. Do you think that if he would have put all the extract in at once and pitched some yeast that it would have finished fermentation?

Click to expand...

Poobah58 said:

Not too many yeasts that can even get started at that level.

Click to expand...

BeerPressure said:

Perhaps quoting a post could tell us what the hell you are talking about.

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There. Now you're caught up.

DeathBrewer said:

There. Now you're caught up.

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Thank you. I wasnt sure if he was talking about my post of 3# sugar, or the other posts.

The fermentation staled because he pitched at 64.

I ferment in the low 60s with all my yeasts, including my belgian strains, and I generally pitch at about 60°F.

Like I said, there are a number of factors involved here, but pitching temperature doesn't really effect the beer unless it is too hot and kills the yeast. It could shock it, I suppose, if your yeast changed temperature drastically, but highly unlikely.

Also, many people are afraid of rousing your yeast. As long as you have active fermentation, rouse that sucker. Swirl the **** out of it. It can take it...as long as there is a single bubble coming out of there, as long as fermentation is active, you don't have any oxygen in the carboy to worry about.

That would have probably got the yeast going again, along with moving to a higher temperature.

Pitching temp greatly effects the reproduction phase.

Conroe said:

Pitching temp greatly effects the reproduction phase.

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Sure, if you keep it there throughout that phase. The optimal temps for WLP570 are, according to WL, 68-75F. All that having been said, your blanket assertion that "it stalled because he pitched low" is making a big leap. There are many reasons why it could have stalled; I've had plenty of beers stall for inexplicable reasons...perfect temps, huge starter, great oxygenation, great mash temps, good pH, etc...still stalled. So you don't know why it happened, really!

I'm curious to see how this turns out. Personally, I've never gotten a stalled beer to restart any other way than to dump it on a cake from another beer. Making starters just doesn't cut it most of the time. So, we'll see.

so I checked the grav. it is now at 1.024. So i got a few clicks but dont know how much longer it will go. Everyday, I swirl it up, and I can see some activity. Someone mentioned some yeast nutrient. I have a little bag of yeast nutrient and thought about putting in a pinch.

I was just starting to not worry so much about the brew and moved onto another belgian (dubbel) to raise my hopes and then broke my new 2 L flask.

bummer, man

Evan! said:

Sure, if you keep it there throughout that phase. The optimal temps for WLP570 are, according to WL, 68-75F. All that having been said, your blanket assertion that "it stalled because he pitched low" is making a big leap. There are many reasons why it could have stalled; I've had plenty of beers stall for inexplicable reasons...perfect temps, huge starter, great oxygenation, great mash temps, good pH, etc...still stalled. So you don't know why it happened, really!

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There is only one reason it stalled; poor yeast health. Jamil probably overpitchs a active 1388 starter that is already acclimated to 65. This is not the first stalled yeast thread from following his instructions.

Conroe said:

Jamil probably overpitchs a active 1388 starter that is already acclimated to 65.

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Unlikely, as Jamil no doubt realizes that a slight underpitching with Belgian yeast really develops the quintessential estery/phenolic character.

I suspect that a big reason that the OP was having issues is the fact that he is using an extract-only recipe which is, unfortunately, well known for underattenuating. The simple sugar should have helped dry it out, but it all depends on the brand of spraymalt.

Without running the numbers, a 2L simple starter only intermittently shaken may not been large enough to properly ferment the 5 gallons - but I'm only speculating. Too many variables to know for sure.