Trying to track down a odd flavor

I've picked up this odd flavour in a extract pale ale, partial mash IPA, and AG American Red Ale. Not in my stouts though.

I thought it was bad hops, but each beer uses different kind of hops. It's kind of bitter, cardboardy and bready too. In the Red ale it's esspacially like a yeasty flavour.

Any ideas on what I could be after, and what info you would like to know to track it down.

Your descriptions are kind of all over the place. Cardboard usually suggests oxidation, bitterness or harshness can be from a whole host of things, and bready or yeasty can also be from many sources. Can you expound on the flavor more, or have someone else taste it? What is your water profile like? What are some of the basic recipe stats? What are your fermentation times/temps and how much of what kind of yeast are you pitching? When you think of your process are there any steps that might be causing oxidation? Are the stouts without the off flavor extract, PM or AG?

I will try to post back while I'm tasting to see if I can elaborate, but it is weird. My water profile was pretty much unavailable from the city, they just said moderately hard. After reading last months newsletter from beer smith, I was trying to see if it was water related....

Between all of the recipes they are all over on what kind of grain is used, what hops, yeast, etc. I ferment @ 70F and pitch all yeast directly in, with no starter.

I really try to minimize oxidation whenever possible, and I know for a fact the Pale ale, and Red ale didn't get a secondary, the IPA did I'm pretty sure. I try not to splash when racking to bottling bucket, etc.

The stouts were AG.

More than likely the Stouts have the off flavors and are just being masked by the Stoutyness (new word?). First thing I'd do is get some RO/filtered water and build it up with some basic minerals to brew your next batch. Check out AJ Delange's primer in the Brew Science thread for what to use. Next up look for a way to control ferment temps and keep them below 70F (65F perhaps), depending of course on the yeast. Not sure what you use but maybe try something like S-05 and rehydrate before pitching.

See what happens from those basic tips, if you're lucky that might be the answer.

If your water is moderately hard it's probably pretty good for stouts and darker beers, but not so good for pales and lighter beers. That could be the problem (or part of it), but it shouldn't have much effect on the extract brews unless something is way out of range. I second the above suggestion to try a brew using a water profile built from scratch. You also didn't mention how long you're fermenting. Several of the flavors you describe sound kinda like green beer.

If your water is moderately hard it's probably pretty good for stouts and darker beers, but not so good for pales and lighter beers.

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This. My stouts were coming out great but my lighter beers kept coming out a little off until I started building up my water.

You also didn't mention how long you're fermenting. Several of the flavors you describe sound kinda like green beer.

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And it's more likely that this is the case. How long are you letting the beers primary?

samc said:

More than likely the Stouts have the off flavors and are just being masked by the Stoutyness (new word?). First thing I'd do is get some RO/filtered water and build it up with some basic minerals to brew your next batch. Check out AJ Delange's primer in the Brew Science thread for what to use. Next up look for a way to control ferment temps and keep them below 70F (65F perhaps), depending of course on the yeast. Not sure what you use but maybe try something like S-05 and rehydrate before pitching.

See what happens from those basic tips, if you're lucky that might be the answer.

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Love stoutyness!!

Jusdt used S-05 in the belgium wit and pineapple wheat so we'll see if it's in that batch. It's been frustrating because I make the beer and realize it has that kind of off flavour so then I let if age longer, still there... and then I try another batch being very careful about all of my processes, sanitizing, and everything only to have it show up again. which is why I was thinking water too...
Is there a place to get my water tested, or a kit or something?
four weeks ferment, and four weeks in the bottle.

I've had an off taste once. And it came from a partial mash batch I once made. The grains we soaking and I didn't keep track of the temp. My grains were in 200+ degree water. I would discribe it as a bitter/cardboard/husky taste. It's the only batch that I ever contimplated dumping out. The long it sits and conditions and more the actual beer flavors mellow and the husky flavor is noticable.

Is it possible that your mash/strike/sparge water was a little too hot?

I check my mash temps, and hit 154 on the money each time.

Even my mash out is dialed

I feel dumb asking this now, but never even thought about if I am doing this wrong, should I filter the wort before puting it in the fermenter? Like to get the hops out? Could it be the hops still sitting in the fermenter that is causing this?

thetmaxx said:

I feel dumb asking this now, but never even thought about if I am doing this wrong, should I filter the wort before puting it in the fermenter? Like to get the hops out? Could it be the hops still sitting in the fermenter that is causing this?

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Only if they're in the beer you're drinking. Letting them sit in the fermenter is not a problem. If your beer is relatively clear and not full of floating hop particles, that is not the cause of your issue.

I run most of my beers through a paint strainer bag on the way into the fermenter, just because it makes for easier cleaning and re-use of yeast. Before doing this, no filtering, and no off taste from hop sediment unless there was a ton of it visible in the glass.

thetmaxx said:

.......which is why I was thinking water too...
Is there a place to get my water tested, or a kit or something?
four weeks ferment, and four weeks in the bottle.

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Yep, I've never used them but have heard good things about Ward Labratories-

http://www.wardlab.com/default.aspx

I think a complete mineral test is ~$25 plus shipping both ways. It might be worth digging a little deepr with your water company. I had to make many phone calls and e-mails over several weeks to get the water info I was looking for. The earlier suggestions to brew a batch using built up RO/distilled water is another way to determine if water is the culprit.

I think I am going to go that route. Is most water sold in grocery stores sufficient, ie the 5 gallon bottles? or do you have to filter your own RO water?

thetmaxx said:

I think I am going to go that route. Is most water sold in grocery stores sufficient, ie the 5 gallon bottles? or do you have to filter your own RO water?

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Most pre-packaged 5 gal water jugs sold in grocery stores are filtered spring water which still has a lot of mineral content in it. Unless you can find out the exact mineral content (unlikely) it won't help much. You really want to start with either distilled or RO water. If you want to avoid buying a whole bunch of 1 or 2.5 gal jugs of grocery store distilled water, your best bet may be a store that only sells water. They often sell RO water, or many of the ones that do a charcoal filtration instead have a complete water profile available for their customers. The water chapter in John Palmers "How to Brew" is a great resource. Beersmith also has a decent water profile calculator to help detrimining how much of which minerals to add to achieve a specific profile.

How much break material did you allow into your fermentor from the kettle? I made an extract Blonde Ale recently that has a flavor that is similar to what you're describing and I suspect that is the culprit in mine.

DMS? It is a partial mash.. How hard of a boil did you get and for how long?

cyraxx said:

How much break material did you allow into your fermentor from the kettle? I made an extract Blonde Ale recently that has a flavor that is similar to what you're describing and I suspect that is the culprit in mine.

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By break material I don't know what you mean. Everything from the boil goes in the fermenter after cooling.

DMS?