Help me figure out where I went wrong ...

So two weeks ago I attempted to brew my first Saison. I mashed:

8.5lbs of Belgian Pale
1.25lbs White Wheat
6oz of Crystal

at 145F for 60min.

I then batch sparged twice with 175F water (screwed up my calculations and ended up adding 1gal of water to fermenter to get 5.25 gallons).

I added .4lb Turbinado Sugar .75oz Hersbrucker pellets and 1.25oz East Kent pellets and boiled for 60min.

I added another .5 oz East Kent for the last 15 as well as .5oz bitter orange peel, 2g paradise seed, and some corriander for the last 5 mins.

Ice bath and I was down to about 80F in 20-30 mins.

Then pitched one tube White Labs Belgian Saison Blend. It was one day past the "best before" date, but I figure worse case is that it wouldn't take off. But this may have been where I went wrong.

I forgot to dry my bung before installing it and it ended up falling into the wort. This wasn't too much of a disaster b/c it has a thermowell for the temp control. I was able to retrieve with a hanger that I heat treated and doused with some Crown Russe. (Again maybe where I went wrong)

I then set my fermenter control to 80F and waited. Within 12hrs I had and strong and rigorous fermentation. It had a 2-3in krausen head and the airlock was humming away.

I was able to monitor progress for the next 48hrs, got the temp up to 83F , but then was away (Dogfish head, WHOOHOO!). Everything seemed fine. When I returned home on the 6th day there was still an occasional blip in the airlock and everything looked / smelled normal.

On the 9th day I transfered to 2ndary, again it looked and smelled fine. But then I tasted it. It's got a sort of sour tart nastiness to it that I can't quite put my finger on. It's seems familiar, and not in a good way (BBQ frito laced vomit???). I tasted it again today (day 13), and it still tastes gross. Gravity reads at 1.008.

This was only my 5th all grain batch, but it is my first bad batch since I started brewing 2+ years ago.

I'm thinking it may be lactobacillus??? Or could it have been the yeast?? I know it will be in large part speculative, but any educated guesses would be appreciated.

THANKS!!

I know last year I made a batch...not sure what but it also had a very sour flavor. Almost undrinkable...actually it was undrinkable. I put the keg aside for probably over a month and when I tried again...it was better. Definitely more drinkable. SO I decided to get rid of it (by drinking it) so I could free up a keg. By the last pint is wasn't horrible anymore. Not what I would call great but definitely better. Maybe it is not an infection and you just need to let it sit for a while?

Well I have it in the 2ndary and plan to leave it for a while. Phil says "If you love it, let it go". I really hope it gets better, a lot better.

Would I see an infection if it was lactobacillus?

you raised the temperature to 83 on day two of fermentation? I don't have much experience with belgian yeast but that seems WAYYYY too warm for that early in fermentation. From what i understand you shouldn't be doing that temperature raise until after a little bit, like maybe a week or so, otherwise the nasty byproducts that you want to avoid are going to be produced. i think what you're tasting isn't an infection but instead nasty yeast byproducts

If you read up on them (Farmhouse Ales by Phil Markowski and there is an article in this months BYO) it's fairly common to let these yeasts get up to that temp and sometimes even higher into the 90s even that early on.

i believe you i just had no idea. I made a saison recently but i didn't raise the temperature like that for a week in. I'm not sure man, just let it age out. it is still early after all

I thought you mash saisons in the 160s or higher that would make a huge difference FWIW

Jklinden said:

I thought you mash saisons in the 160s or higher that would make a huge difference FWIW

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Nope, saisons are typically mashed in the mid/high 140's to maximize fermentability.

Saison yeast can throw a fair amount of tartness and acidity that is part of the style. Perhaps this is what you are experiencing?

Jklinden said:

I thought you mash saisons in the 160s or higher that would make a huge difference FWIW

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WAT

Don't do that your saison will never dry out/attenuate correctly.

Agreed mash temps in the 140s are normal but a step profile to mid 150s is said to help with mouthfeel...

Jklinden said:

Agreed mash temps in the 140s are normal but a step profile to mid 150s is said to help with mouthfeel...

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First off you didn't say step mash, second of all you said 160's.

Hey cripplecreek, I can't add much here, except to say, I have seen beers age out a LOT of nastiness. Worth a try.

The real reason I posted (sorry, I know it should be because I wanna be helpful!) is that I want to ask about the name cripple creek. I have to ask: Are you a banjo player? Or, perhaps, a fan?

Mike

Horseshoot said:

Hey cripplecreek, I can't add much here, except to say, I have seen beers age out a LOT of nastiness. Worth a try.

The real reason I posted (sorry, I know it should be because I wanna be helpful!) is that I want to ask about the name cripple creek. I have to ask: Are you a banjo player? Or, perhaps, a fan?

Mike

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Hey Mike,
Don't play, but I'm a huge fan.

More and more I'm really thinking it's an infection. I'm reading White's book on Yeast and in the troubleshooting section it describes a lacto infection as tasting very similar.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether or not a lactobacillus infection would be visible??

Might as well age it for a while to see what happens. If it is bacterial, I would expect it to get worse, to the point where you will not have any doubt. If it turns out to be bacterial, I suggest taking extra lengthy measures to sterilize all your stuff before you brew again. Get some Star-San and keep it on hand so you don't have to use your whisky (Crown Russe?). Also, the ice bath step seems risky to me, maybe it is time to upgrade to a wort chiller? Let us know what happens.

cripplecreek said:

Hey Mike,
Don't play, but I'm a huge fan.

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Ah OK. Cool name. I named my American Brown Ale: Cumberland Gap.

Mike

scribo said:

Might as well age it for a while to see what happens. If it is bacterial, I would expect it to get worse, to the point where you will not have any doubt. If it turns out to be bacterial, I suggest taking extra lengthy measures to sterilize all your stuff before you brew again. Get some Star-San and keep it on hand so you don't have to use your whisky (Crown Russe?). Also, the ice bath step seems risky to me, maybe it is time to upgrade to a wort chiller? Let us know what happens.

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Yeah, I'm going to let sit for a few weeks and see what happens.

Crown Russe is cheap Vodka and a VERY effective sanitizer/rubbing alcohol substitute. I use it in addition to StarSan and OneStep, depending on what I'm sanitizing.

Ice bath isn't risky, sure tons of people here are doing. Haven't had a problem in 2.5+ years.

Have a therminator, but it's mounted to my Brutus 10 build that's 65% complete.

Thanks to all for the advice! Will let you know how I make out.

cripplecreek said:

More and more I'm really thinking it's an infection. I'm reading White's book on Yeast and in the troubleshooting section it describes a lacto infection as tasting very similar.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether or not a lactobacillus infection would be visible??

Click to expand...

If you let it sit long enough you can see it.