Bottling from keg gassing with co2

bctdi · Dec 8, 2012

I keg my beer, but sometimes I want to save a few bottles.I would like to start gassing my bottles with co2 before filling them.My thought was to maybe make something that would make a carbonator cap fit snugly onto the top of the bottle like a rubber stopper. Then hookup my co2 to it and vent the cap till all the o2 is removed, then fill with beer for maximum shelf life. Has anyone tried this , or has anyone made something that makes gassing with co2 easy and cheap? The other option would be to just make a tube that hooks up to the co2 and just run it down into the bottle and turn on the gas. So if you gas your bottles before filling, how do you do it?

Antler · Dec 8, 2012

I'm not sure if this is in your budget but I have a Blichmann beer gun. It hooks to your keg so you can bottle right from the keg, and you can also purge the bottle with co2 before filling with the beer gun. Lots of people have them and love them!

DroolingNeoBrewery · Dec 8, 2012

Have a read through this sticky https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/we-no-need-no-stinking-beer-gun-24678/

What you describe is not necessary. Both beer and CO2 are heavy and will displace the oxygen in the bottle. The first bit in the bottle using this tool will be foam. Foam = beer + CO2 This will push the oxygen up before the beer starts filling the bottle. When full to the top pull out your BMBF and squirt in more foam. With this tool you get beer when under pressure and foam when not its pretty simple. A few pages in you will find a video of someone doing it. And all will make sense. People who have beer guns and counter pressure fillers stop using them after trying this tool, it way simpler to use. If you don't believe me watch some blichmann beer gun and counter pressure filler videos to and compare.

IMO Hardest/Most chance for screw ups to easiest/least: beer gun -> counter pressure -> BMBF.

I made mine for $2 and use an party tap i already had.

bctdi · Dec 9, 2012

DroolingNeoBrewery said:
Have a read through this sticky https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/we-no-need-no-stinking-beer-gun-24678/

What you describe is not necessary. Both beer and CO2 are heavy and will displace the oxygen in the bottle. The first bit in the bottle using this tool will be foam. Foam = beer + CO2 This will push the oxygen up before the beer starts filling the bottle. When full to the top pull out your BMBF and squirt in more foam. With this tool you get beer when under pressure and foam when not its pretty simple. A few pages in you will find a video of someone doing it. And all will make sense. People who have beer guns and counter pressure fillers stop using them after trying this tool, it way simpler to use. If you don't believe me watch some blichmann beer gun and counter pressure filler videos to and compare.

IMO Hardest/Most chance for screw ups to easiest/least: beer gun -> counter pressure -> BMBF.

I made mine for $2 and use an party tap i already had.

Yes, I have used that for years, and it does work great , but I do believe that gassing with co2 is better for maintaining freshness over the long term. Breweries gas their bottles 2 or 3 times before filling. Why do they do that? Is it because they don't use counter pressure? I'm not really sure. The only reason I bottle is to keep some of my higher gravity beers for long term... Like 4-5 years, so I want max freshness , but not going to spend $85 on a beer gun if I can do the same thing for under 10 bucks.

DroolingNeoBrewery · Dec 9, 2012

I not sure what the big boys (BMC) do but small craft breweries often use a multi head counter pressure filler (does 2 or 4 or 6 at once) by hand. there a lots of brewer blogs where start ups discuss the woes of bottling. One thing I have learned researching my own real micro brewery is bottling no matter how you do it unless you have a $100,000 fully automated bottling line SUCKS BALLS!!! My understanding of those bottling lines is they are just counter pressure fillers with conveyor belts and sensors. CO2 pressure followed by beer, no real purging. Why would they bother, CO2 displaces O2 and pushes it up so any CO2 in the bottle will be on the bottom where the beer is going in and remain as a blanket on top of the beer as it fills, pushing the O2 out at the same time.

When breweries bottle their beer in Canada they put a best before date (I don't know if they do that in the states) that date is typically 6 months after the bottling date (some put both). They are not intending it to last years, or even a year they are intending you drink it ASAP. They are also intending that the beer be stored in cold conditions as much as possible (even though that only happens in private liquor stores that care about product quality, that's a completely different issue).

Even so there are people on that sticky that have stored beer bottled with this tool for over a year with no issue, and I don't believe there is any oxygen left in the bottles that I fill this way. There is beer and foam over flowing over the top when capped. Where is all this oxygen coming from? (where as beer that is bottle conditioned has a head space with oxygen in it left on purpose!)

Also most stuff that is meant to cellar for long periods even today is bottle conditioned, not force carbed. I don't think many breweries that bottle condition are bothering to purge with CO2 before filling but I could be wrong about that. Even if you did it would be hard to ensure that the oxygen stays out unless you are pushing flat beer using a CO2 system similar to a bottling gun.

If you really want to do this post 5 https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/we-no-need-no-stinking-beer-gun-24678/#post241821 shows a diagram of an added tire valve with a bicycle pump attachment hooked up to CO2. I think this is a waste of time and CO2. CO2 here is $35 for 5 pounds so I treat it as more valuable then the beer its self!

bctdi · Dec 9, 2012

DroolingNeoBrewery said:
I not sure what the big boys (BMC) do but small craft breweries often use a multi head counter pressure filler (does 2 or 4 or 6 at once) by hand. there a lots of brewer blogs where start ups discuss the woes of bottling. One thing I have learned researching my own real micro brewery is bottling no matter how you do it unless you have a $100,000 fully automated bottling line SUCKS BALLS!!! My understanding of those bottling lines is they are just counter pressure fillers with conveyor belts and sensors. CO2 pressure followed by beer, no real purging. Why would they bother, CO2 displaces O2 and pushes it up so any CO2 in the bottle will be on the bottom where the beer is going in and remain as a blanket on top of the beer as it fills, pushing the O2 out at the same time.

When breweries bottle their beer in Canada they put a best before date (I don't know if they do that in the states) that date is typically 6 months after the bottling date (some put both). They are not intending it to last years, or even a year they are intending you drink it ASAP. They are also intending that the beer be stored in cold conditions as much as possible (even though that only happens in private liquor stores that care about product quality, that's a completely different issue).

Even so there are people on that sticky that have stored beer bottled with this tool for over a year with no issue, and I don't believe there is any oxygen left in the bottles that I fill this way. There is beer and foam over flowing over the top when capped. Where is all this oxygen coming from? (where as beer that is bottle conditioned has a head space with oxygen in it left on purpose!)

Also most stuff that is meant to cellar for long periods even today is bottle conditioned, not force carbed. I don't think many breweries that bottle condition are bothering to purge with CO2 before filling but I could be wrong about that. Even if you did it would be hard to ensure that the oxygen stays out unless you are pushing flat beer using a CO2 system similar to a bottling gun.

If you really want to do this post 5 https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/we-no-need-no-stinking-beer-gun-24678/#post241821 shows a diagram of an added tire valve with a bicycle pump attachment hooked up to CO2. I think this is a waste of time and CO2. CO2 here is $35 for 5 pounds so I treat it as more valuable then the beer its self!

$35 for 5 lbs is way expensive...I just paid $35 for 20 lbs 3 weeks ago and I thought that was a bit high. As far as my beer goes, I wouldn't even think twice about it if I planned on drinking these beers within 6 months, but the only ones I bottle are the barleywines and belgians I make, which are generally in the 9% to 11% abv range. I would like to be able to keep a few to try over the years to see how they change. I have listened to podcasts where brewers talk about freshness issues and have resolved to double and triple gas the bottles just prior to filling, but these were higher abv belgian styles in 22 oz bombers, so I think the intent for those was long shelf life. I know that the standard procedure when kegging beer is to purge with co2 before the beer ever goes in, then purge again when finished, so I was thinking why not take the same approach with bottling since they are both a very similar vessal with the exception of size. To be honest I really don't know the absolute answer on gassing bottles or not gassing, but just want to give those beers the best chance at surviving as long as possible as I can. That setup with the tire valve is exactly what I'm looking for, cheap enough and looks pretty effective too. I did start looking at that thread , but it's huge, so a lot of info to scan through. Thanks for the info too.It's really great to be able to bounce ideas off of this huge wealth of brewing knowledge and come away with something useful :mug:

DroolingNeoBrewery · Dec 9, 2012

If your ageing these for along time maybe build that tire valve in and use the tool to bottle primed flat beer. That way you get rid of the O2 and have added stability of the yeast being active in the bottle for a short while. If your not going to touch it for months or longer it shouldn't matter how long they take to carb up.

I think the only way to be sure the bottle has been completely purged is to fill it with sanitizer and use CO2 to push the sanitizer out (probably want that to be though a small output tube rather then spraying in your face

)

bctdi said:
$35 for 5 lbs is way expensive...

There are gov fees and health regulations that make CO2 that touches food stuff far more expensive. Its mostly per cylinder, so the cost doesn't go up that much for 5 or 15 more pounds of gas. I did not know this when I bought the tank....

bctdi · Dec 10, 2012

DroolingNeoBrewery said:
If your ageing these for along time maybe build that tire valve in and use the tool to bottle primed flat beer. That way you get rid of the O2 and have added stability of the yeast being active in the bottle for a short while. If your not going to touch it for months or longer it shouldn't matter how long they take to carb up.

I think the only way to be sure the bottle has been completely purged is to fill it with sanitizer and use CO2 to push the sanitizer out (probably want that to be though a small output tube rather then spraying in your face )

There are gov fees and health regulations that make CO2 that touches food stuff far more expensive. Its mostly per cylinder, so the cost doesn't go up that much for 5 or 15 more pounds of gas. I did not know this when I bought the tank....

Sad but true, I have been brewing almost 4 years now, but have never bottle conditioned a beer yet. I am planning a beer similar to orval soon, and will use brett to carb in the keg. The whole reason I got into kegging was to avoid bottling in the first place.....someone once said "bottling sucks" , and I believe it.Kind of ironic that now I'm looking to bottle from my kegging setup, but only about a 6 pack per batch at the most.I have a really good barleywine on tap right now that I would love to taste in about 2 years. So I guess I don't mind a little overkill on these bottles since it's only 4-6 per batch. I saw some 1/8 inch od ss tubing on McMaster Carr website for about 8 bucks a foot. I may buy a foot of it and make a fitting to hook up to my co2 tank to purge my bottles with just prior to filling. Maybe modify that tire valve setup you linked me to so the co2 goes to the bottom of the bottle and works it's way up as I purge.

DroolingNeoBrewery · Dec 11, 2012

well your determined to do it, so I guess all you can do now is build it and try :rockin:. Post picks I wanna see this thing. I guess it will be a long time before we know if it makes a difference

Antler · Dec 12, 2012

The owner of the LHBS here filters, carbonates, and bottles with his kegging setup for a fee. He built his own counter pressure bottle filler, but he's VERY secretive about it. I can drop off 5 gallons of room temp beer today and pick it up in 48hrs fully filtered and carbonated. When I asked him about his process/setup he wouldn't show me his homemade bottle filler, won't even tell me anything about it other than he built it himself, and won't talk about carbonation or temps.

DroolingNeoBrewery · Dec 13, 2012

Antler said:
The owner of the LHBS here filters, carbonates, and bottles with his kegging setup for a fee. He built his own counter pressure bottle filler, but he's VERY secretive about it. I can drop off 5 gallons of room temp beer today and pick it up in 48hrs fully filtered and carbonated. When I asked him about his process/setup he wouldn't show me his homemade bottle filler, won't even tell me anything about it other than he built it himself, and won't talk about carbonation or temps.

lol its probably because he is using a BMBF style device and doesn't want you to know. as for temp and psi I'm guessing 30PSI @ 33F in the time frame you give.

Antler · Dec 13, 2012

DroolingNeoBrewery said:
lol its probably because he is using a BMBF style device and doesn't want you to know. as for temp and psi I'm guessing 30PSI @ 33F in the time frame you give.

Do BMBF stand for Blichmann Bottle Filler (beer gun)? If so I don't think so. I asked him about them when I was looking for one. I'm sure if he had access to them he'd have been trying to get me to buy from him.

DroolingNeoBrewery · Dec 13, 2012

Antler said:
Do BMBF stand for Blichmann Bottle Filler (beer gun)? If so I don't think so. I asked him about them when I was looking for one. I'm sure if he had access to them he'd have been trying to get me to buy from him.

BMBF = Bier Muncher Bottle Filler as in we don't need no stinking beer gun (see link above). They work very well and are so simple that you can figure out the construction just by looking at it. That's why he wont show anyone.

Antler · Dec 14, 2012

DroolingNeoBrewery said:
BMBF = Bier Muncher Bottle Filler as in we don't need no stinking beer gun (see link above). They work very well and are so simple that you can figure out the construction just by looking at it. That's why he wont show anyone.

Maybe, but he tried his damnedest to convince me that bottle filling from a keg without a counter pressure filler will result in flat beer every time.

I don't really care what he fills the bottles with, I know beer guns and the tap/racking cane works. But I would love to know how he gets consistent carbonation every time in such a short period of time.

bctdi · Dec 15, 2012

Antler said:
Maybe, but he tried his damnedest to convince me that bottle filling from a keg without a counter pressure filler will result in flat beer every time.

I don't really care what he fills the bottles with, I know beer guns and the tap/racking cane works. But I would love to know how he gets consistent carbonation every time in such a short period of time.

24 hours to get the beer cold, then set co2 pressure to 12 psi and shake the hell out of it . A keg can be fully carbed in under an hour that way.At 12 psi it's not possible to over carb it. Then let it settle for the remaining 23 hours.

stpug · Dec 15, 2012

I have an air blow gun with a large diameter tube (~3 mm) connected to my co2 tank that can be used to purge containers. At 12 psi, lightly pressing the air gun level slowly releases the gas which displaces the air in the bottle (i.e. co2 sinks, air comes up). I use this to for purging needs from time to time. No carbonator cap needed. I haven't used it for purging bottles prior to bottling but that was one of the driving forces behind setting it up.

If you then rested a bottling cap on the purged bottle you would effectively lock in the co2 prior to filling.

I also have been playing with bottling from the tap. I've been using the grolsch washer method of filling bombers. A cold sanitized bottle, a grolsch washer over the perlick faucet, push the bottle up against the washer enough to create a slight seal, open the faucet, and when you've reached the top just cap on the foam. I can't say that a purged bottle would help in this instance BUT it won't hurt either.

Antler · Dec 15, 2012

bctdi said:
24 hours to get the beer cold, then set co2 pressure to 12 psi and shake the hell out of it . A keg can be fully carbed in under an hour that way.At 12 psi it's not possible to over carb it. Then let it settle for the remaining 23 hours.

I didn't know you could reliably carb a keg that fast!

bctdi · Dec 16, 2012

Antler said:
I didn't know you could reliably carb a keg that fast!

The only way it's reliable is if you keep the pressure at serving pressure, otherwise you could easily over carb. As long as you keep at serving pressure, the laws of physics will not allow it to be over carbed. It has to be cold though...

Antler · Dec 16, 2012

bctdi said:
The only way it's reliable is if you keep the pressure at serving pressure, otherwise you could easily over carb. As long as you keep at serving pressure, the laws of physics will not allow it to be over carbed. It has to be cold though...

Thanks!

DroolingNeoBrewery · Dec 17, 2012

bctdi said:
the only way it's reliable is if you keep the pressure at serving pressure, otherwise you could easily over carb. As long as you keep at serving pressure, the laws of physics will not allow it to be over carbed. It has to be cold though...

+1

Bottling from keg gassing with co2

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