Hefeweizen esters

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Danny013

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Hey all,

I made the hefeweizen from Charlie Papazians book and went with the White Labs Bavarian Hefeweizen yeast on a reccomendation from my LHBS. Fermentation went fine, I had it in the primary for 2.5 weeks and bottled it tonight. The only problem I noticed was the esters from the beer - it was a very intense 'solvent' or 'bug spray' smell and flavor, so much that I could only take a little sip. It fermented at the reccomended temp range as well. Will this age out in the bottle? I know hefes are meant to be drunk young, but I guess I'm just worrying.

It's really clear, too! Strange...

Off to get more homebrews to relax!
 
What temp did you ferment at? I think if you go above 72 you start getting some real intense esters. They will fade a bit though with time. I've let mine hit as high as 75, but I really enjoyed the flavors and aromas I got. They weren't like bug spray, more sweet and a fruit-like acidity.
 
Esters don't usually smell solventlike...those occurring in beer anyway. Esters produce the banana/apple/fruity nose in the beers. WLP351 has a strong phenolic character, and I imagine that's what you're probably smelling.

Give it some time, let the phenols react with some of the other compounds in the beer, and it should end up more clovelike than solventlike.
 
By Bavarian Hefeweizen, do you mean WLP300 or WLP351? I have used both and prefer 300. Anyway, if you did ferment too warm the yeast was probably out of control and created too much esters, possibly some fusels, which can give you a headache. This is why I ferment weizens at 60-62F, I get a very balanced ester profile without any flavors that stick out. The beer will probably mellow out in time, however if there are fusels I'm not sure whether they will disappear with aging.
 
This is from How to Brew by John Palmer.

Solvent-like

This group of flavors is very similar to the alcohol and ester flavors, but are harsher to the tongue. These flavors often result from a combination of high fermentation temperatures and oxidation. They can also be leached from cheap plastic brewing equipment or if PVC tubing is used as a lautering manifold material. The solvents in some plastics like PVC can be leached by high temperatures.

I'm guessing oxidation, personally.
 
I went with the 351.

I fermented it around 66-70 or so, which is what the WL site said. I dunno.

I had to go out of town last weekend and it got up to 72-74 or so for 2 days, but I don't know if that would contribute to such a strong smell. I'll let it age for 3 weeks or so and leave it in the fridge for another week or so, hopefully that'll mellow out some flavors.
 
Just saw the reply above mine...

I'm not sure it can even be oxidation - I dumped the brew into my primary, aerated, let it ferment, and racked it into my bottling bucket. I don't think there was even a chance for that.

I think what I smell was probably more phenolic than solvent like - I havn't smelled either so I was just going off a guess. Now that's I think about it it is definitly a huge clove smell and unpleasant taste. As I said above, I'll let it age out for a month or so and go from there.

/I guess I shoulda went with the regular hefe yeast, not the bavarian with the huge clove notes. bah, LHBS.
 
I use WLP351 all the time, but I've never experienced what you describe.

It's clear because of the time you had it sitting. I let mine go in the primary for 10 days and then bottle/keg if the FG is down where it should be.

Dang Me, Seefresh!! I drove through WF last week. I was in Lawton for a couple of weeks and had to go down to Killeen for another couple of days. I'm home now, but headed to Alexandria, VA tomorrow.
 
Dude, bring some beers for a trade next time you come through! I've yet to meet an HBTer yet. ALmost met Ed, but was a crazy weekend at the ACL fest.

I drove to mendota, va last weekf or a wedding. 16.5 hour drive... was exhausting.
 
Danny013 said:
Just saw the reply above mine...

I'm not sure it can even be oxidation - I dumped the brew into my primary, aerated, let it ferment, and racked it into my bottling bucket. I don't think there was even a chance for that.

I think what I smell was probably more phenolic than solvent like - I havn't smelled either so I was just going off a guess. Now that's I think about it it is definitly a huge clove smell and unpleasant taste. As I said above, I'll let it age out for a month or so and go from there.

/I guess I shoulda went with the regular hefe yeast, not the bavarian with the huge clove notes. bah, LHBS.

Let me preface the following with a disclaimer.

This advice came to me from my LHBS, and I haven't seen any info to back this up.

I was told that the colder you ferment a hefe, the more clove esters you get and the warmer you ferment it, the more banana esters.

I personally like to ferment mine at 70-72 degrees, which I know is way higher than most people like them, but I love that yeasty banana aroma.
 
Buford said:
Just to be pedantic, but isn't clove flavor due to a phenol and not an ester?

Yes, it is. Because of another thread, I checked around with some more experienced wheat beer brewers, and they confirmed the advice that, with hefeweizen yeast, colder fermenting temps tend to bring out more clovey or peppery phenols and warmer ones bring out the banana esters.


TL
 
Danny013 said:
LHBS was out of Star-San, so I had to use bleach. 1 tsp. per 5 gallons, rinsed well with hot water.


I think we have a winner. You didnt rinse good enough. From Palmer:

Medicinal
These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Try your very best to not use bleach, and if you have to, try not to use too much and make sure you rinse very thoroughly.
 
homebrewer_99 said:
I use WLP351 all the time, but I've never experienced what you describe.
How do you use it all the time if it's a platinum strain available form July to August? Do you culture it?
I have used it twice and both times it created sulphur, I prefer to use 300.
 
cubbies said:
I think we have a winner. You didnt rinse good enough. From Palmer:

Medicinal
These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Try your very best to not use bleach, and if you have to, try not to use too much and make sure you rinse very thoroughly.

Well, crap.

I made sure I rinsed well. I must have put a gallon of hot water in there and shook it up 4 or 5 times...

Guess not...

So is it toast? Unsafe to drink?

/Damn, my LHBS has been out of starsan for 2 months now...

EDIT - hm...could chlorinated water be a culprit? I had to use 2 or 3 gallons of tap water in the boil - I had gallon jugs but some of them fell out of my jeep...I guess I'm used to the water here now and didn't think about it, but I remember a distinct chlorine taste when I moved up here...

OT here, but when I'm grabbing water at the store for beer, which should I go for? There is always spring water, drinking water, and distilled. Which is best?
 
I'm sorry to hear the news, but you should dump it to be on the safe side. Chances are you can drink it, if you can stand the taste. Think, is it worth getting sick over?
 
Iordz said:
How do you use it all the time if it's a platinum strain available form July to August? Do you culture it? I have used it twice and both times it created sulphur, I prefer to use 300.
Yes, I wash it. I don't mind the sulphur odor, it goes away.

I think my original strain is over 2 years old now.

I currently have 8 - 10 vials, a mason jar and an 1/2 gal jug half full of it. :D

I have 6 batches of HW in my sig that I used it in this year, plus the batches that were drunk and no longer on the list.
 
Danny013 said:
...Well, crap...I made sure I rinsed well. I must have put a gallon of hot water in there and shook it up 4 or 5 times...
Not nearly enough rinse water. Do you have a faucet jet sprayer? Those work wonders when rinsing. ;)

I just use PUR filtered tap water...you may want to invest in something along those lines.
 
Let me clarify, I guess it was confusing how I wrote it...

I put a gallon of water in there and shook it up, 4 or 5 separate times. So rinse, shake, dump, rinse, shake, dump, etc. 4-5 times. Is that still to little?
 
Does your LHBS have iodophor? It works, too. Star-San may be many brewers' favorite, but it's not the only good sanitizer out there.

Honestly, I've never used bleach as a sanitizer, so I really can't comment about the rinse water. However, as you surmised, brewing with chlorinated water straight from the tap is a big no-no.

If those really are chlorophenols in your beer, then you're pretty much hosed. However, unless and until you need the room or bottles, don't dump it. We all could be misdiagnosing the problem, and things might work out fine.


TL
 
^I'm gonna let them age for a bit, I probably won't need the bottles anytime soon. If it's bad, well oh well, but like you said, it could be good and needs to age.

As of now I'm thinking it's the chlorinated water.

I've used Iodophor before but it stained all my stuff a bit, and I've got better bottles and don't want those to stain, too. I think I'll just order some sanitizer off the internet.

Thanks again for all the replies!
 
As Tex said. If you don't have an immediate need for the bottles. Let it mellow. You never know. I don't think there is any potential health risk...though I am no doctor.

It does sound like you rinsed good enough. i would look into a water report. Also, as someone else mentioned, one of those filters you screw on to your faucet are good at removing things like chlorine. Might be worth looking into.

Good luck.
 
I always use bleach for my carboys but after I've rinsed them (not as thoroughly as you) with water I also put in "One Step" i have never had a batch ruined by infection and I doubt you have either.

Have you ever had a true Bavarian hefe wiezen? I only ask you this because there are thousands of BMC drinkers out there who would think their perfectly normal hefe Wiezen was infected.

Go to a specialty beer store and buy a Weihenstephan staats braurei hefe wiessen and compare with what you brewed. If it is not in the same zip code then maybe something went wrong.

Good luck,
Al
 
;) I have used that yeast a couple of times now and both times it came out with pretty heavy clove taste, I fermented it without temp control so it was probably too warm. I just think that is the way a bavarian hefe tastes. I also used a Wyeast german wheat 3333 that came out the way I liked it with some banana overtones so if I ever do another hefe, it will be with that yeast. My LBS tried to talk me into the Wit yeast from White Labs, supposed to have a bubble gum nose. The Wyeast is at another LBS:mug: You could just plug your nose and take big drinks or give it to people that you don't want bumming beer from you in the future;)
 
I Just recently I fermented a German Hefe and the temp was between 69 and 73 F the whole time. After kegging for 20 days I applied 20 LBs of CO2 and tried a sample and it was overpowering BANANNA. I thought that I would wait some more and see if it changed. In a week it was better and not so sweet. in 2 weeks it was still bananna but not overpowering and the excess sweetness has gone. It is really enjoyable now.

My next attempt will be at 65 F in a refrigerator as I now know from the post below that temperatue plays a large part in the esters (Bananna/Clove) that are produced and flavor German Hefe. The high carbonation also helps to make this beer great. :mug:




TexLaw said:
Yes, it is. Because of another thread, I checked around with some more experienced wheat beer brewers, and they confirmed the advice that, with hefeweizen yeast, colder fermenting temps tend to bring out more clovey or peppery phenols and warmer ones bring out the banana esters.
TL
 
:mug: Both times I have used Wl 351 it has a heavy cloves taste, I recommend the German Wheat Beer Wyeast 3333 I believe. It had the better tasting brew with banana esters I was looking for. I did the WL 351 with higher temps. range and still got clove tastes ( just like it says on the vial.) so I think this is what Bavarian Hefe is supposed to taste like. You might try a Belgian Wit but I won't try WL 351 again.:(
 
WBC said:
...it was overpowering BANANNA... I thought that I would wait some more and see if it changed. In a week it was better and not so sweet. in 2 weeks it was still bananna but not overpowering and the excess sweetness has gone. It is really enjoyable now.
I only use 3%AA for a batch of my HW. This is on the sweet side, but not overly sweet.

When bottled you need to sample (take a sip) from the glass BEFORE adding the swirled yeast in the bottle to the glass. When you pour in the yeast it also adds bitterness. At least in my brews it does. ;)
 
Ó Flannagáin said:
Dude, bring some beers for a trade next time you come through! I've yet to meet an HBTer yet. ALmost met Ed, but was a crazy weekend at the ACL fest.

I drove to mendota, va last weekf or a wedding. 16.5 hour drive... was exhausting.
I know the feeling. I left Killeen on Tuesday and was home on 15.5 hours...it's usually an 18 hour drive...(I lived in Germany for 9 years and still drive fast)...then left IL for MD on Sat...14 hour drive...

Next time I'm headed your way I'll post it...definite sharing time...when SWMBO doesn't travel with me I take 5 gal cornies with me...(I snore more when drinking and she wants to be no where near that)...I had 2 Sundays free...dang it!!
 
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