First Competition Results

I just received the results from my first competition - a recently brewed IPA (14B) I (and every civilian who tasted it) absolutely loved and a porter (12B) I brewed a year ago and happened to have some bottles left.

Of course, my beloved IPA received a pedestrian 24.5 and the porter I thought to be decent but unspectacular came in 4th overall (third in flight) with a score of 34.6.

The IPA got dinged pretty heavily for diacetyl and the recommendations I got were for things I already did - use a yeast like 1056 (I used S-05) and give the yeast more time to clean up (I did a 4 week primary).

I tried researching the subject before bugging you fine people, but the overwhelming majority of material on the subject concerns the diacetyl rest for lagers. The judges didn't seem to think infection was the cause. 4 weeks is time enough for the yeast to clean up, correct? Are there other likely causes that I'm missing? This was my first use of the beer gun, could I be oxidizing somehow (I thought I purged the bottles sufficiently)?

If you received a deduction for oxidation then sure, you might have oxidized your beer at some point - whether it's during a transfer or during bottling it's hard to say.

That said, if your primary deduction was diacetyl, then it's likely a fermentation problem. The judges know their stuff and they're not going to confuse two off flavors like that.

I would guess that your problem was that either initial fermentation temps were too high OR that diacetyl rest temps were too low.

Diacetyl can come from stressed yeast- so underpitching could be a cause of diacetyl in a not-usually-full-of-diacetyl yeast strain. A long lag time could contribute to diacetyl, for example, as could a lack of aeration prior to fermentation.

It can come from infection, notably pediococcus, as well.

I only mentioned oxidation because something I came across mentioned introducing too much oxygen in transfer as a possible diacetyl cause.

I aerated with O2 and didn't have any lag time issue. I haven't been hydrating my dry yeast, so I suppose underpitching is possible. I'll rehydrate (or pitch two packs) next time and see if it makes a difference.

Of course, the bottom line is the taste for me and the people who drink with me and everyone loved it. But it's nice to know what diacetyl actually tastes like after seeing so many references to it. Thanks to both you for your feedback.

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I don't think that's a concern as far as diacetyl is concerned. Whatever diacetyl is going to be in your beer has long since been formed by that stage.

Scores often tend to be more about how well the beer you made matched the criteria for the style (or the judges interpretation thereof) than anything else. Sure you will get dinged for any defects, but a great beer entered in the wrong category can be the difference between a 25 and a 35. Despite what a jhall4 says about the judges knowing their stuff, I will counter with some judges know their stuff. Some competitions do not have BJCP certified judges for all of their judges. Did you have more than one judge judging your beer? What level of judge were they? Were the scores and comments very close to each other?

I should also note that I have had the same beer score vastly differently in two competitions. I had an American Barleywine score a 29.5 with lesser experienced judges (apprentice/certified) with mentions of dicetyl and astringency and a month later got a 42 from a BJCP National judge who I talked to later and said there was absolutely no diacetyl or astringency. To some degree score are arbitrary, granted a barleywine can get better with age, but a month to go from a 29.5 to 42?

The best thing is to enter the same beer in multiple competitions so you can locate consistencies and disregard one off comments.

AnchorBock said:

The best thing is to enter the same beer in multiple competitions so you can locate consistencies and disregard one off comments.

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100% agree. If you are thinking of entering one competition, enter the same beer in two more and compare the scores and comments.

The IPA was judged by two judges, one National and one Recognized. They both indicated diacetyl.

I'd rather have a beer I find delicious than one that pleases strangers (certified or not), but it is interesting to get notes from experienced people who have no incentive to save your feelings.

While I agree with your thoughts . If you and your friends like your beer that's fine . I'm sure there is nothing wrong with it.
As for myself and being a certified judge IPA is a category I won't judge . Most beers are not balanced , old or overdone in certain aspects .
In a perfect world judges should do this and that to give every beer a fair and accurate shot . I try . Sometimes the butter bomb can ruin the rest of the flight . You might have been put behind one . Unfair yes . That's just apart of judging .
I'll never forget my Alt . I scored a 16 . I think I moped for a week . The keg was fine . People liked it . I just didn't properly clean the disconnect when I filled the bottles .

Can you enter 2 of the same beer in the same category in the same competition? I'd be interested to see if the comments were different or the same, and of the scores were the same.

cadillacandy said:

Can you enter 2 of the same beer in the same category in the same competition? I'd be interested to see if the comments were different or the same, and of the scores were the same.

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No, generally you are limited to one entry per person per style/substyle.

If both a recognized judge AND a national judge claim to have tasted diacetyl, then you've got diacetyl. A 24.5 score isn't terrible by the way- it's actually considered "Good". If you look at the bottom left of the scoresheet, you'll see that it is good, but with minor flaws. And the flaw they noted was diacetyl. If the diacetyl is in the aroma/flavor/mouthfeel, those areas would have gotten dinged in the points, and you can see that on the scoresheet.

I have seen the highest score in a competition win a category with a 33, and often competitions don't even have a "40" beer. So, 24.5 isn't bad at all!

Your porter at 34 is considered "very good".

If you love your IPA the way it is, that's great. But I'd suggest saving a bottle or two in the fridge (to slow down aging) and rebrew it, paying special attention to yeast health and sanitation. See if when you taste them side-by-side if you can pick up the diacetyl then.

It's interesting to note that some people are genetically unable to pick up or taste diacetyl. It's possible that you are one of them, and that your friends don't know that a "slick" or slightly oily mouthfeel even IS an off-flavor! Keep in mind that diacetyl isn't always the "butter bomb" talked about, except in huge quantities. A smaller amount of diacetyl presents as a "slick" or oily mouthfeel, or a slight slickness on the tongue or teeth. Taste your beer again, by letting it warm up to 48-50 degrees and then hold it in your mouth and swish it around a little before swallowing and see if you feel any slickness on your teeth or tongue. Maybe both judges were FOS (medical abbreviation, believe it or not, for "full of ****") or maybe you DO have diacteyl in the beer!

Diacetyl may not be unpleasant at all, but it is considered an off-flavor in most styles except for Bohemian pilsner, and a few English styles.

Thanks Yooper. I thought that if the scores and notes were similar on the same beer, I could give more credence to the score sheet.

Yooper said:

If both a recognized judge AND a national judge claim to have tasted diacetyl, then you've got diacetyl. A 24.5 score isn't terrible by the way- it's actually considered "Good". If you look at the bottom left of the scoresheet, you'll see that it is good, but with minor flaws. And the flaw they noted was diacetyl. If the diacetyl is in the aroma/flavor/mouthfeel, those areas would have gotten dinged in the points, and you can see that on the scoresheet.

I have seen the highest score in a competition win a category with a 33, and often competitions don't even have a "40" beer. So, 24.5 isn't bad at all!

Your porter at 34 is considered "very good".

If you love your IPA the way it is, that's great. But I'd suggest saving a bottle or two in the fridge (to slow down aging) and rebrew it, paying special attention to yeast health and sanitation. See if when you taste them side-by-side if you can pick up the diacetyl then.

It's interesting to note that some people are genetically unable to pick up or taste diacetyl. It's possible that you are one of them, and that your friends don't know that a "slick" or slightly oily mouthfeel even IS an off-flavor! Keep in mind that diacetyl isn't always the "butter bomb" talked about, except in huge quantities. A smaller amount of diacetyl presents as a "slick" or oily mouthfeel, or a slight slickness on the tongue or teeth. Taste your beer again, by letting it warm up to 48-50 degrees and then hold it in your mouth and swish it around a little before swallowing and see if you feel any slickness on your teeth or tongue. Maybe both judges were FOS (medical abbreviation, believe it or not, for "full of ****") or maybe you DO have diacteyl in the beer!

Diacetyl may not be unpleasant at all, but it is considered an off-flavor in most styles except for Bohemian pilsner, and a few English styles.

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I certainly wasn't challenging the judges verdict and I'm pretty happy with my scores overall - the comments from both amounted to "diacetyl detracts from an otherwise good IPA". I only have a few bottles left, but I will definitely save a couple for comparison as I had already planned on rebrewing this recipe. Maybe I can't taste diacetyl or maybe I like a little extra sweetness. I just never would have thought of it as buttery.

I used S-05 in the beginning of my brewing and just pitched dry into the beer. Now I use a standard starter for 48 hours in advance and that has cleared all the off flavors that I used to find and also gets my beer ready to drink sooner. Maybe try that for your competition beers.

I wouldn't get too hung up on judges comments from one competition. For a true assessment you should send it in to several competitions. For some perspective, I sent a Bock to 3 competitions this year. In 2 local comps I received scores of 13, 17, 18 & 22. A National ranked judge noted DMS, diacetyl, sulfur and vegetal. I took a chance and sent it into the NHC this year. It took a 2nd in the Atlanta regional and advanced to the second round in Seattle where it scored a 39 and 42 and went to mini best of show.

So who was right? I don't know, although I would like to think the judges at the nationals were. It's a very subjective process and you can't dispute what people claim they taste. All you can do is take note of the comments, try to glean something constructive that might improve your process and keep on brewing!

HenryKDuff said:

I certainly wasn't challenging the judges verdict and I'm pretty happy with my scores overall - the comments from both amounted to "diacetyl detracts from an otherwise good IPA". I only have a few bottles left, but I will definitely save a couple for comparison as I had already planned on rebrewing this recipe. Maybe I can't taste diacetyl or maybe I like a little extra sweetness. I just never would have thought of it as buttery.

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But diacetyl is not buttery in smaller amounts- did they specifically say "buttery"? An oily or slickness on the teeth or tongue is also diacetyl, just in a smaller amount that a butter bomb has.

Yooper said:

But diacetyl is not buttery in smaller amounts- did they specifically say "buttery"? An oily or slickness on the teeth or tongue is also diacetyl, just in a smaller amount that a butter bomb has.

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Both judges mentioned "butterscotch". I had one of my remaining bottles last night and I just don't taste it. I did detect a slick mouth feel, however. I think I need to follow your earlier advice and try one of these next to a similar IPA that I'm confident is diacetyl free and see if I can identify the taste then.

Is there a commercial beer with similar IBUs and hops that you could taste it against and see if you have that same feeling.

BTW, thanks yooper. I'm sitting here reading this, drinking my two hearts clone and trying to check my tongue and teeth!

An important thing I don't believe mentioned here yet is the fact that some people can not detect diacetyl while others are VERY VERY sensitive to it. If the OP's palate isn't diacetyl sensitive that could be the answer? Additionally this being an IPA I'd guess (totally from thin air) the OG to be 1.065 or so, pitching 1 pack of dry yeast could certainly produce a rather stressed fermentation under the best of circumstances.