How long is too long in primary?

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corwin3083

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I have an oatmeal stout that will have been in primary in a True Brew bucket for 4 weeks as of tomorrow, at a friend's house. Unfortunately, yesterday the water pump on my car died, and I won't have the cash on hand to fix it until I get my next paycheck in 2 weeks, which means I can't get down to his place to bottle it tomorrow, as I intended.

How long can this stay in primary before we start to have problems? The worst case scenario is another two weeks and change; should it be ok, as long as we just let it sit on the yeast? Or should I try to at least get the bottle capper and caps to my friend so he can bottle before that?
 
Should be fine. I've got a Kölsch in the fridge that has been on the yeast since 9/6 and I am not worried!
 
I quite often don't get around to doing anything with a brew for 6 to 8 weeks. I've gone up to 16 weeks in primary and the beer turned out great. Don't worry about it.
 
after 10-14 days the proteins in the troob start to break down and these can release off flavors to the beer. this is why people secondary at the 2 week mark. get the beer off the troob.

you can leave it in the primary for more than 2 weeks and probably you'll be fine. but at 4-5 weeks i guarantee you that protein will have started to break down and will get into the beer. if you're fermenting for more than 2-3 weeks in a primary, it really should go into a secondary
 
i also don't score the taste of my own beer fyi. not exactly a reliable, objective measurement of anything. despite what papazian's book might say.
 
i also don't score the taste of my own beer fyi. not exactly a reliable, objective measurement of anything. despite what papazian's book might say.

I believe he is referring to a competition score, I could be wrong. Also, MANY people on this board recommend 3-4 weeks. So another 2 weeks shouldn't hurt anything. RDWHAHB, whenever you can get around to it is fine.
 
I believe he is referring to a competition score, I could be wrong. Also, MANY people on this board recommend 3-4 weeks. So another 2 weeks shouldn't hurt anything. RDWHAHB, whenever you can get around to it is fine.

Yes, it was scored a 45 out of 50 (gold medal in category 10) at the 2010 Great Arizona Homebrew competition.

The info in both Palmer and Papi is outdated when it comes to autolysis.

Where's Revvy with his cut and paste damnit :D

Basically, with a healthy yeast and proper pitching and proper fermentation temps, you can primary for two months easy.
 
Wrong

after 10-14 days the proteins in the troob start to break down and these can release off flavors to the beer. this is why people secondary at the 2 week mark. get the beer off the troob.

you can leave it in the primary for more than 2 weeks and probably you'll be fine. but at 4-5 weeks i guarantee you that protein will have started to break down and will get into the beer. if you're fermenting for more than 2-3 weeks in a primary, it really should go into a secondary
 
Autolysis is a big boogeyman of brewing. Don't worry about it. It's old teaching that's been pretty much disproved. I have a saison that's been sitting in primary since August and I just sampled it last night and there's no sign of off flavors from the yeast cake breaking down whatsoever.
 
"Troob?" What is "troob?" I know about "trub," but not "troob."

Anyway, I left it in to 4 weeks based on Revvy's advice, which I've seen all over the forums. I just wanted to be sure 6 weeks wouldn't be a problem, and "troob" aside, it looks like it's not.

Plus, seriously, baystatebrew, you don't judge the taste of your own beer? Why even bother to brew in that case?
 
akthor...thanks for the insightful analysis. i got that information from charlie papazian. but everyone else, feel free to go with a guy named akthor if in doubt.
 
trub...pronounced troob. my mistake. phonetic spelling and realized i misspelled it. whatever revvy says is good advice.
 
fwiw, I usually keep my primary going for 4-6 weeks at least and then bottle. I don't secondary anymore...
 
a lot of people report improvement when doing month long primaries instead of secondaries. i'm one of them definitely. it gives time for the yeast to clean up after itself
 
I had a stout sit on the yeast cake for 2 and 1/2 months, not on purpose by the way. I was terrified, nervous and worried. Then I listened to my brothers on this forum. I relaxed, and had a home brew. After I bottled and conditioned the brew, it turned out to be one my best brews everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! The moral of the story is Listen to Charlie Rdwahahb. Oh by the way, these guys on HBT know WTF they are doing. J Cheeeerrrrrrrrrssssssssss!!!!!!!
 
akthor...thanks for the insightful analysis. i got that information from charlie papazian. but everyone else, feel free to go with a guy named akthor if in doubt.

Charlie is a great brewer and has written some great books, and if the godfather of homebrewing, but quite honestly, a lof of the info is old....

Keep doing what your doing since it works for you, but I don't think you'll find any science to back up that leaving the beer on the yeast cake for a month or more leads to off flavors - IF (like I said), you had a good yeast count, a proper fermentation temp, etc....
 
you can leave it in the primary for more than 2 weeks and probably you'll be fine. but at 4-5 weeks i guarantee you that protein will have started to break down and will get into the beer. if you're fermenting for more than 2-3 weeks in a primary, it really should go into a secondary

You can gaureentee, this, huh??? Wow you must know more than most of us, including John Palmer, because we seem to gaurentee quite the opposite. ;)

In fact we've been gaurenteeing that the OP's beer will actually BE BETTER by leaving it in Primary for a month.

You're going by outdated information....that idea has been dying over the last 4 years or so, driven by our experiences here. It's an outdated opinion, based on old fears about yeast contact.

You'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.

Contrary to what you may think, it's been discovered that actually taking it off the yeast too soon prevents some much needed cleanup (and the true secondary fermentation period) from happening. That's why many of us have opted for LONG primary/No secondary. Instead of rushing the beer off the yeast cake before the job is done. The yeast are very tenacious creatures, and if we actually leave them the heck alone, and not move them too soon, they will actually clean up after themselves, and remove their own waste/by products of fermentation, and actually will lead to cleaner, clearer and fresher tasting beers.

Moving it during fermentation more often than not has led to stuck fermentations.....And off flavors. Because the strongest, most active yeast is still in primary, rather than relying on some weaker, less flocculant yeast to clean up the messes.

It's very similar to a diacety rest, but for ales no change in temp is required. You can read a citation for that here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/pr...d-butter-please-70438/index2.html#post1080693

That old way of thinking that the yeast is the enemy has gone the way of the dinosaurs. Back when yeast was crappy, and may have come in hot cargo holds of ships, and sat on store shelves for an indeterminant length of time. Now with modern, healthy yeast we put it to work for us..."vomit" or "Autolysis" yeast is pretty much a myth for todays homebrewer.

Even in subsequent editions of How to Brew, John Palmer has changed his tune. But even in the first edition of the book he said this..

How To Brew said:
Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

You can read about that here, and have all your questions answered about that as well. THIS is the most updated information;https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

It won't, as you gaurentee, happen automatically on day x....the yeast won't just take a powder and start pooping in the beer. People have succussfully left their beer in primary for 6 or more months, with NO issues.

Bottom line, we leave our beers alone, some of us for a month, it let's the beer ferment and the yeast clean up after itself. Many of us have found a remarkable improvement on our beers since we "entered the 21st century."

You don't want to stop the conditioning process, you want to embrace it.

I'll see your gaurentee, and and raise it with some facts.:p

AND my scores and medals from the beers I've been leaving in primary for a month as well.....
 
akthor...thanks for the insightful analysis. i got that information from charlie papazian. but everyone else, feel free to go with a guy named akthor if in doubt.

One thing to remember is that Papazian, as wonderful as it is, was written 30 years ago...and a lot of "science" or "common wisdom" that he as an author tapped into has evolved....all authors face this issue with their work.

Charlie Papazian said it But he might not necessarily say it now....see the difference?

His basic info is timeless....how to brew beer, figure out recipes, etc...but some of the info is just a reflection of the "opinions," or prevailing wisdom of the times, and may not even reflect his current beliefs...There's a podcast with Papazian from a year or so ago, where he talks about just having started using rice hulls in his mash ton...so if he doesn't update the book again, or write a new one, unless you've heard the podcast or read it on here, you won't KNOW about it.

BUT a guy named akthor actually might. ;)

A book is a snapshot of the author's body of knowlege and the "common wisdom" at the time the author wrote the book, which may mean 3 years before it was even published. Papazian's book is 30+ years old. The basic knowlege is good, but brewing science and experience has progressed to where some things an author believes or says at that time may no-longer be valid...even to the author.

John Palmer has changed many ideas since the online version of the book went up several years ago.

Most of the time when someone "revises" a book they don't necessarilly "re-write" the entire thing...and unless they annotated the changes, often all a "revised" edition has to make it up to date is a new introduction, and maybe the addition or removal of some things. But Rarely is a revision in a book a serious comb through of the entire book.

This is an ever evolving hobby, and information and ideas change. And now with places like this with a huuge amount of dedicated and serious brewers, as well as all the podcasts online, you will find the most state of the art brewing info.

Like I said, Papa Charlie, JUST discovered the idea of using rice hulls in his mash tun to prevent stuck sparges....So just maybe he could even maybe have learned some other things in the last 30 years as well, and just not gotten around to writting about it?

I still believe that POSSIBLY autolysis WAS a concern to homebrewers 20-30 years ago, when the yeast came in dry cakes, of dubious heritage and came across from where homebrewing was legalized in the hot cargo holds of ships and may have sat for months in terrible conditioned...In other words was unhealthy to begin with.

And therefore may have crapped out and made for nastiness, (and also was prone to stick fermentation as well.) and tales of it just continued to perpetuate over time, even though yeasts are much more healthy and fresh, and more is understood about them nowaday....people gravitate to the negative and fear and still perpetuate those worries...over and over and over....But that was then and this is now, this where the most up to date brewing wisdom and ideas can be found.

Heck if Charlie Papazian farts on a podcast these days, they'll be a thread on here about it within 5 minutes. ;)
 
Let me go one step further and ask another question...
I'm getting ready to bottle a spice beer that fermented in primary for 4 weeks, then in secondary with spices added for another 4 weeks. Any recommendations on how much, if any, yeast to re-add at bottling? Alternatively, should I add to secondary and let sit for a few days, then bottle?

Thanks!
 
Let me go one step further and ask another question...
I'm getting ready to bottle a spice beer that fermented in primary for 4 weeks, then in secondary with spices added for another 4 weeks. Any recommendations on how much, if any, yeast to re-add at bottling? Alternatively, should I add to secondary and let sit for a few days, then bottle?

Thanks!

You don't need to add any more yeast there is still plenty in solution to do the job...I don't worry about til it's been like 6 or more months in secondary of a big beer. I always just rub the bottom of the autosiphon across the bottom of the primary to kick up some of the yeast and bring it back into solution when I'm racking to my bottling bucket.

I'm not sure what you mean by your alternative, but there's no need to move it to a secondary.

And by the way, THAT and any other question about long primary that you could conceivably come up with has been answered and it is in that Jamil and John Palmer thread I referenced earlier.....
 
BTW, two days ago I finally bottled the chocolate mole porter that I brewed on 5-27-10. I had car issues and then health issues and other things that prevented me from getting around to it til last night.

SO it is nearly 5 months old. And it tastes amazing, and is crystal clear (at least as clear as a jet black beer can be) and tastes perfect. No off flavors or aromas whatsoever.

I don't think I've ever had a beer that was so clear...and the yeast cake was so tight that it was like concrete in the bottom, and I racked off what appeared to be the entire 5 gallons of liquid, and almost no sediment or hops.

I'll know more in a month when it's carbed and conditioned, but I think it is going to be perfect when it is done. I'll have some BJCp judge friends blind taste it to see. But I don't think there is a hint of "autolysis" or other nasty nonsense in there.
 
Also old brewing books talk about liquid malt extracts like they are horribly bad like yeast many of our other ingredients have gotten better over the years.

Someday my pipeline will be filled up and I will make a big beer like Revvy's and leave it in primary for months as well. Due to parties and such I have had to keg things after only 2 weeks in primary while others have gone a month, same recipes and I can see and taste but most especially see how much clearer the beer is the longer it sits in primary. Also a Nut Brown I kegged after a month in primary had virtually no sediment in the bottom of the keg after we drank it. An Octoberfest ale that was only in primary for 2 weeks then kegged, then after it was carbed I transferred it to a new clean keg, had wayyyy more sediment in the bottom of the keg when it was done. I'm a true believer now ;)

Even if I am just some guy named AKTHOR :)
 
I had a Porter and a Double Chocolate Stout that I left in the carboy for over a year... On the yeast cake... I added yeast to it when I bottled it and it turned out very yummy. It is in the "Private Reserve" for friends and family :)

I had written both of these off since they were in the carboy for such a long time. I think a stout is a little happier if it has a little more time in the carboy in my experience. Your mileage may vary...
 
I need to empty my only primary to make room for a new brew. The beer in it has only been there 10 days. Does it make sense to stir up the yeast cake before transfering to secondary to bring as much yeast with it as possible?
 
As many others have pointed out, the amount of time a beer has spent in primary isn't a good indication of whether fermentation has finished. You need to take gravity readings to determine that.

If you get the same gravity in two readings spaced over three days, then fermentation has finished.
 
I have beers that I brew in October every year, I leave them on the yeast until April. I keg them up and they are delicious for the summer. I don't worry about how long a beer sits on the yeast. In my experience, they just get better over time.
 
As many others have pointed out, the amount of time a beer has spent in primary isn't a good indication of whether fermentation has finished. You need to take gravity readings to determine that.

If you get the same gravity in two readings spaced over three days, then fermentation has finished.

I should clarify: I won't move the beer until I my readings confirm primary fermentation is complete. I mentioned it had been 10 days just to show it is nowhere close to the 4 weeks or so that is recommended.

After reading this thread it makes me wonder if I am better off bringing as much yeast as possible with the beer into secondary. If I had room I would just leave it in primary.

Time to buy another primary i guess!
 
So if I am going to go 3-4 weeks in primary and not use a secondary (only for specials) is plastic ok or should I be doing this in glass?
 
What about cold crashing and using gelatin to clarify the beer? Can both of these be done successfully in the primary or would it be better to use a secondary for these? I typically leave all of my brews in the primary for 4 weeks before doing anything else to them.
 
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