My bottles don't like my beer...

Hi folks,

First time post...

So, I have made about 4 batches of beer now (all from extract beer kits). The results have been steadily improving, and the last batch was the most successful. It was a Coopers Pilsner made with liquid malt extract, pitched US-05, and dry-hopped with Saaz. I also let this one sit for the longest in the primary - 4 full weeks. I have not secondaried any of my batches so far.

After 4 weeks in primary the beer was totally clear. I then primed with Coopers carbonation drops and bottled.

AND...the taste result after 6 weeks bottle conditioning was..... only ok.

You see, no matter what I do, all my beers seem to have a yeasty taste and smell. I can't belive this has happened AGAIN on the last batch, especially after I let it sit for a month before bottling. It was crystal clear and smelled great!

My only guess is that during the carbonation process too much yeast deposit / sediment is being produced. The taste and smell in the final bottle is not really of any off flavours, its more a yeasty taste and smell, which is worse at the bottom of the bottle. I could understand this happening if too much sugar was added to the bottle, but I used exactly what was recommended for these coopers carb drops.

Is bottling my beer ruining it ?
Is it the carb drops ?
Does this happen to anyone else ?
Next time, should I just let sit for 1 month, and then transfer straight to a keg and carbonate with CO2 ???



Any advice appreciated.

Thanks

US05 is considered a "clean" yeast so you should not be getting much yeasty flavor from it.

Things to consider:

Chill your bottles a little longer.
Do not drink from the bottle - pour into a glass and leave the last little bit (with the settled yeast in the bottle.
Try brewing with bottled spring water and see if that changes the yeasty flavor.
Try priming with table sugar or corn sugar to see if that makes a difference.

Bottling in itself is not the problem or everyone would have it.

I find that 3 weeks fermentation is an easy compromise between taking gravity readings and bottling asap and waiting a month or more. They have been very good.

Kegging is probably the best way to go but if you cannot afford it like myself, i would suggest standard priming sugar such as cane suger! It has no off flavors. And there are multiple websites for Priming Sugar calculators. Cane sugar is highly fermentable, if your not kegging go with simple sugar!

Are you pouring your homebrew into a glass? Always pour your homebrew into a glass! Pour carefully, and try not to dump the yeasty bottom portion in with the beer.

Are you pouring the whole bottle into your glass? When it carbonates, yeast multiplies again. It's recommended you chill your beer for a couple days before drinking to let the yeast settle on the bottom, then pour so that you leave the cake on the bottle of the bottle. You should end up leaving a little bit of beer behind.

What is your fermentation temperature?

What is your bottling process? Do you transfer to a bottling bucket first, or do you bottle directly from your fermentation container?

To add to the string of questions, how long has it been bottled?

I used to mistake DMS for that yeasty taste. And Pilsner malt is known for DMS. So anyway, that's one possibility.

Thanks for the feedback.

So.... to answer :

The first bottles were about 4 weeks conditioning, and chilled around 48 hours. I've just put a few more in the fridge (they are now about 8 weeks old) - and will leave them chilling for 4-5 days before tasting.

I always pour into my nice pilsner glass, leaving the sediment at the end. If I included any of the cloudy beer at the end it would be very yeasty, and thats the same yeast smell and flavour that I get off the rest of the beer. Its not extremely strong, but not good all the same.

I had bottled with spring water before but had the same result.

Fermentation temp was 21-22C (70-71.6F)

I bottled direct from primary into sanitised bottles. The beer seemed very clear going in - and smelled good - which leads me to belive its the coopers drops !? It's agony thinking I could have just carbed it as it was then with CO2 and drank it straightaway...

But instead I just have another yeasty batch..

thedubliner said:

The beer seemed very clear going in - and smelled good - which leads me to belive its the coopers drops !?

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My understanding of the coopers drops is that they are pills of compressed sugar and should not cause any yeast flavor. Have you tried priming sugar instead of the drops?

Perhaps the slightly warm fermenting temps are causing some issue. Are those temps that of your fermenting room or the actual beer. Either way you probably need up to 5 degrees cooler. Possible this is part of the problem as well.

I havent seen this mentioned yet: Try using a secondary after 7-10 days in the primary (basically once fermentation is done). If the beer is sitting on the big yeast cake for 4 weeks, you're probably getting more of the yeast flavor out of it than if you transferred. In addition, try using US05 from Safale; Its a very clean yeast.

thedubliner said:

I bottled direct from primary into sanitised bottles.

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I'd be surprised if this was the source, but what sanitizer are you using?

RainyDay said:

If the beer is sitting on the big yeast cake for 4 weeks, you're probably getting more of the yeast flavor out of it than if you transferred.

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This is 100% false, based on my experience.

RainyDay said:

If the beer is sitting on the big yeast cake for 4 weeks, you're probably getting more of the yeast flavor out of it than if you transferred. In addition, try using US05 from Safale; Its a very clean yeast.

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Completely false. In my experience 3-4 weeks is perfect for the yeast to clean up after itself. I know other brewers on here have left beer on yeast cakes for months on end and turned out quality beers w/o off any flavors.

RainyDay said:

In addition, try using US05 from Safale; Its a very clean yeast.

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He did use US05. It was in the OP.

HawksBrewer said:

Completely false. In my experience 3-4 weeks is perfect for the yeast to clean up after itself. I know other brewers on here have left beer on yeast cakes for months on end and turned out quality beers w/o off any flavors.

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Not saying off flavors, i'm saying yeast flavors. In my experience, getting the beer off the yeast cake leaves the beer with less yeast flavor. Results may vary I suppose.

RainyDay said:

Not saying off flavors, saying yeast flavors.

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Not trying to get into a back and forth here...

I generally consider a yeasty flavor to be an off-flavor in that it is usually unintentional, and in this case is clearly not desired.

HawksBrewer said:

I generally consider a yeasty flavor to be an off-flavor in that it is usually unintentional, and in this case is clearly not desired.

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I suppose we can just agree that our specific experiences have yielded different results and just move on.

thedubliner said:

I bottled direct from primary into sanitised bottles.

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bottling from a primary, this is your problem.

I've bottled about 36 different brews from my primary with no yeasty taste. (Hate to add more confision to the mix.) Pete

I used to have this taste / problem when I bottled. It stopped when I let the beer sit for 4-6 weeks at room temp (after bottling), and then in the fridge for at least one if not two more weeks.

My problem was mainly due to my lack of patience.... By the time it tasted right I would have only a six pack left!

I would go back to your fermentation temps as said earlier. If its 70+ degrees in the room, your beer temp could be even higher. Did you taste sample before bottling? Its unlikely something in your bottling procedure.

thanks all - really appreciate the input.

The temp may have been slightly high, but I don't think it was enough to produce significant off flavours. The beer itself was at this temp, not the room. I also don't think it was because I let it sit 4 weeks in the primary - actually this was the longest ever I let a batch sit, and it was the most clear coming out. I specifically let it sit longer than previous batches in an attempt to get rid of the yeasty taste.

I guess I will let the next few bottles sit in the fridge for a good week and then report back.

Maybe the ones I tasted were just a bit young. Maybe I also had too high hopes of producing something with a very clean taste form a basic kit?

Anyway, if the bottles I have in the fridge don't taste any better, I think I'm all out of ideas. Can't face doing another kit to have it turn out the same way.

Could it be you're just very sensitive to yeast flavor? I found the below and it might help answer your question.

A quote from a website (will post the link below the qoute)

Edit: After reading this for a third time, it's a bit of a shot in the dark. Seems like to many factors. I'd troubleshoot with the basics. Good rolling boil for an hour, proper yeast pitch, ferment temp and as always a sound sanitation procedure.

DIMETHYL SULFIDE (DMS)/SULFURY-YEASTY
CHARACTERISTICS: Volatile sulfur-based compounds that can give beer a taste and
aroma of cooked corn, celery, cabbage or parsnip to almost oystery-shellfish-like in
high concentrations. DMS is first perceived in aroma at around 30 ppb, and the other
compounds at considerably lower concentrations..
CAUSES: Wort bacteria (Obesumbacterium, Hafnia, Zymononas, Pectinatus, and
Megasphaera). Coliform bacteria strains can also give a strong cooked-vegetable note.
Additionally, these compounds can be formed during the kilning of green malt and during
mashing. DMS is also formed by the yeast in a normal fermentation
HIGH LEVELS DUE TO PROCESS: Poor sanitation (primary cause); not boiling the wort
for at least one hour; long cooling times (overnight) before pitching; underpitching;
contaminated yeast (especially packet yeast and recovered sediment); high moisture malt;
over-sparging with water below 160 degrees; Under-oxygenation of wort; beer left on
sediment for excessive time, Wild yeast contamination.
REDUCTION: Good sanitation; fresh yeast culture; good one hour or more rolling
boil; quick wort cooling; high pitching rates; use of 2-row English malt; proper
sparging.

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http://home.comcast.net/~wnevits/wizards/Off_flavors_in_beer.pdf

RainyDay said:

I suppose we can just agree that our specific experiences have yielded different results and just move on.

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Agreed

Yeast bite as it's called.

Here's a BYO magazine article which discusses the subject and how to avoid it.

http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/58-yeast/183-beat-yeast-bite

I had exactly this problem, first I tried with lower fermentation temperatures(from 68 to 65), it didn't work, then I changed the sanitation, the problem persisted... I tried MANY MANY things, none of them worked.

I found the solution after searching a lot on the web, do a rolling boil of an hour or more, after that I never had the problem again.

How are you bottling from your primary? Is there a spigot on the bottom of the vessel that you are using or are you using a racking cane to take the beer from the top? You might be picking up some of the yeast cake if you are using a spigot on the bottom. I'd try racking to a bottling bucket, making sure to leave the yeast cake behind

I bet the turbulence of the beer flowing through the spigot is stirring up some yeast. I always rack to a bottling bucket and leave a little bit of beer in the bottom of the fermenter to make sure I leave as much yeast behind as possible.

How long are you leaving it on the yeast?

This really doesn't seem to be a bottling issue!! The OP is giving sufficient time for settling and good pours so the yeast sediment is not the problem. The yeast flavor then is most likely something related to phenols made by the yeast during fermentation at higher temps.

Does the beer smell abnormally yeasty? Any hot/medicinal flavor?

Wirk said:

I had exactly this problem, first I tried with lower fermentation temperatures(from 68 to 65), it didn't work, then I changed the sanitation, the problem persisted... I tried MANY MANY things, none of them worked.

I found the solution after searching a lot on the web, do a rolling boil of an hour or more, after that I never had the problem again.

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This is really interesting... although I just can't see how this can impact the amount of yeast in the bottle?

As for the other ideas, it may that the spigot in my primary is picking up some yeast, but I can't see that being the issue either. The beer was clear coming out...and I'm pretty sure it didn't smell as yeasty as it does after bottling.

I could try a more highly flocculating yeast, but again, I thought US05 would have been a fairly safe bet for that.

S05 is a very clean yeast, particularly under 72 degrees. I've never left it sit for 4 weeks, though. I usually leave my beer in the fermenter about two weeks, three at the most.

I know a few people (like unionrdr) have had good results with coopers ingredients, but I never have made one drinkable beer with Cooper's kits. Maybe try a different kit/ingredient source for the next batch and see if it's fixed? It's hard to describe a flavor, so maybe what you feel is "yeasty" I would think is "twangy" and not yeasty. Without tasting the beer, we all have to guess the problem. Since I've never had a yeasty flavored beer with S05, it's making me think it's not an actual "yeast" flavor, if that makes sense.

I'd suggest a better quality kit, depending on what you have available in your location. Generally, dry extract, a package of hops, and some dry yeast can make an excellent beer. If you could find some dry light extract, some East Kent Golding hops, and some S04 yeast, you could make an English pale ale and see if the beer is better. If it is, you know it's the ingredients, If not, you would know it's your water or technique. Just a thought!

Thanks Yooper, sound advice. I'll give it another go without using coopers.

Cheers

One refinement i made to my technique that has helped me with yeasty tastes, is letting stuff settle when bottling.

I've always noticed that I'm pressed for time when performing a beer procedure. What works for me is,

- I move the carboy/bucket into position, then wait 20 minutes for stuff to settle.
- I auto siphon with the tip about 2" into the top of the brew, and move down slowly as it drains splashlessly into my bottling bucket. It never touches the yeast cake.
- I move the bottling bucket into position, place lid on (not snapped down) and wait another 20 minutes for everything to settle. (usually doing a quick dunk of the bottles and getting the caps ready in star-san)

I've refined the technique by fermenting on a shelf in my basement, so when I siphon into the bottling bucket, I know the yeast hasn't been swishing around as the carboy/bucket hasn't moved.

Be sure to drink some of the non-carbed beer when bottling. I'm a big fan of tasting at every step because if/when the taste changes from something you like, to something you don't like, you need to look into your procedure and refine it.

Good Luck.

I think you can make perfectly good beers with Coopers kits, they are one of the most popular kits in the UK and Ireland, it's not because they don't produce good beers. With all due respect to Yooper, I don't think that's the definitive word on Coopers kits.

They are good quality, I reckon you're leaving the beer too long on underpitched yeast....just my .02c, but then again I don't remember reading how long you leave it on the yeast.