Tower of Power in a HERMS Configuration?

I'm working on designing an upgrade to my brewing system and want to go with HERMS. While I would love to build my own control panel to control the flame to the HLT/HEX, I barely can make time to brew much less start a major project like that.

I've been thinking about using a Tower of Power controller to control the gas burner under the HLT with the temp sensor on the HEX output. I would recirculate the mash through the HEX during the entire mash, naturally.

Can anyone think of a reason why this wouldn't work? I know TOP is designed to do a direct fired recirculating mash instead of HERMS, but I can't see there being a problem with using it that way. Thoughts?

I have been wondering this as well.

SavoryChef said:

I have been wondering this as well.

Click to expand...

Glad I'm not the only one. My sense is it would be no different than a regular HERMS, but with the temp probe at the exit from the HERMS coil for the TOP. It's just a bit more money than I'm willing to experiment with.

I think I'm leaning towards the TOP and will have to try it out. I don't see why it wouldn't work. Especially with the two units

I wouldn't think you'd need two units for a HERMS. I was just rethinking my probe placement, and if you put the probe in the HLT only, then just measured the temp differential between the HLT and HERMS output, you should be able to hold the temp where you want it. You'd only need 2 of the units if you were controlling 2 burners, which you would not be doing here.

Ya your right. There would be a small learning curve.

Subscribed. I'm at the same stage you guy are. I have been applying direct heat under my MT and recirculating on and off. I'm looking to go to a HERMS system with the configuration you are discussing here for placement of the temp probe. I just ordered a Top Tier from my lhbs with 2 burners - one each for HLT and BK. I plan on just putting my MT on a shelf, insulate it and let the HERMS keep it at proper mash temps.

A Tower of Power controller is on my wish list!

MikeB

Let us know how it turns out

jclucca said:

I'm working on designing an upgrade to my brewing system and want to go with HERMS. While I would love to build my own control panel to control the flame to the HLT/HEX, I barely can make time to brew much less start a major project like that.

I've been thinking about using a Tower of Power controller to control the gas burner under the HLT with the temp sensor on the HEX output. I would recirculate the mash through the HEX during the entire mash, naturally.

Can anyone think of a reason why this wouldn't work? I know TOP is designed to do a direct fired recirculating mash instead of HERMS, but I can't see there being a problem with using it that way. Thoughts?

Click to expand...

How did this every turn out? I've been looking for feedback from people who have used the TOP with HERMS...

I don't know if it interests anyone, and I'm sorry to revive an old thread as my first post, but I am currently setting this up exactly as described. I will be incorporating a ToP into my HERMS system, with the probe at the inlet to to Mash tun. As I understand, the PID is configurable with the communications link to a PC. In case anyone is curious, I will report back on my success. There seems to be no information online as to weather this will work, but a common thought.

I just finished my second brew with this configuration. Works beautifully. Not having to watch the dials (and knowing my temps are the same every time) is worth every penny.


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And just to clarify, I am only using one Blichmann controller to control the heat of my HLT in order to regulate the temp of the mash. The controller is sitting on the utility shelf (I have a top tier) as a stand alone unit.


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Really? So you have the ToP sensor at the output of the HEX, and it fires the hlt burner? How tight is the control? Do you step mash with it?

I use the TOP with a herms setup. I have the probe on the tower measuring the wort as it exits the MLT heading for the HERMS coil. I have to step into prevent overshooting my target. I think the software may allow me to change some Settings. I have not tried that yet. I also think that the probe reading as the wort exits the Herm's coil might work better.

I have been using the TOP in a direct fired configuration for approaching two years. In my configuration, I have the probe on the pump outlet (just south of the MLT). In a HERMs situation, you would want it after the HEX, i.e., after the point where heat is being applied. It will work great.

Awesome! Thank you guys so much for the info! I can't wait to start pushing out 15-20 gallon batches! The ToP sounded appealing, but I hadn't heard about many setups. Glad I pulled the trigger now

Zgreens said:

Really? So you have the ToP sensor at the output of the HEX, and it fires the hlt burner? How tight is the control? Do you step mash with it?

Click to expand...

Sorry for the delay in response. Sounds like others are also having a positive experience, but I thought I would still answer your original questions.

Sensor is at the output of HEX (technically at the input of the MLT where the wort returns to mash but the difference of 1.5 feet of hose). I would definitely support the notion of putting the sensor somewhere after the wort leaves the HLT coil. And yes, the sensor controls the HLT burner.

I have not step mashed but usually employ a mash out (so, like a step). Control can be very tight but certainly depends on how fast the recirculation flow rate is. That will be the important thing to notice on your specific brew system. A slower rate should help you have a closer range between mash temp and HLT water temp.

Some pictures are attached. Not the best but just wanted to quickly grab some off my phone.




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Thanks so much for the info! I'm setting up tonight, for what I'm calling the fourth of brew-ly! I can't wait to try it, I can't imagine it not working. I'll just have to tinker with flow rates, as you said. But then again, this is 75% tinkering for me.
Do you find the set point on the ToP to be consistent with your mash temp, or do you have to "shoot high"?

Awesome! I'll be bottling tomorrow and brewing Sat. Good times.

Don't shoot high. Just dial in your mash temp. Now, your HLT may read higher, but that is where your flow rate comes in. When I'm recirculating full speed, my HLT is 10 degrees hotter. The mash, however, is spot on. Dial down the speed and the temps will be closer.

Speaking of tinkering, the starter probe takes some love and affection. Keep a long screw driver handy when your brewing in case you need to move the probe back over a burner hole. Eventually the thing will find its mark and you'll be all set.

Here are some closer shots of the temp and burner probes...




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Help! I'm mashing right now, 55 minute in. The ToP is reading 153 on the return... Spot on, but my mash temp seems to be 140 at my 2"thermowell. I didn't calibrate my analog . Do I trust the ToP? My hlt is at about 162...

Trust the TOP. it will be what it will be! No worries!


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Well, I came in low... 70% efficiency instead of a planned 80%. I don't think that's too bad. I let the mash go for 90 minutes, and then fly sparged. This was my first herms, first 20 gallon on a brand new system, and the first batch in my new conical. There were several catastrophes:
First, the ToP and the mash tun thermometer didn't agree by almost 15 degrees. I tried my thermometer in the boil and it was spot on 212. It is, however, only a 2" thermowell in a 21" diameter mash tun.
Second, my kettle screen got smashed by my chiller, and clogged up with the 30 oz of hops I put in there... Yeah... I know. Should have see. That one coming a mile away. Wound up siphoning through a strainer.
Third, as I had been at assembling my stand, cleaning, sanitizing, blah blah blah all day, at 10:30 I called it quits at trying to cool the wort and I pitched at 79 degrees (gasp).
It seems to me that my problems can all be solved. Blichmann hopblocker, prechilling. The one thing that's getting away from me is this stupid ToP. Maybe a March pump isn't enough for 20 gallons? Maybe I need to insulate? Maybe the ToP needs to be hooked up differently. Any input would be appreciated.
Sorry for the long post. I'm tired, tipsy, and presumably just made 20 gallons of beer. Cheers!

So where is the control mod. temp probe in your recirculation set up? Also, how fast do you recirculate?


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I'm recirculating fill bore with a chugger pump, and the temp is at the inlet to the mash tun, at the wort return

Yea that is what I do.

Well... I guess - personally - I would trust the temp prob rather than the top two inches of a mash (for a 20 gal. batch that's balancing 30 oz. of hops no less!).

That is just my thoughts - and I realize you had a lot going on the last time - so I guess you will just need to keep brewing to dial it it. Could be worse things to do!

Let me know if other details on my set up (which does seem similar to yours) can help you out.


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Is your mash tun insulated?

It is not. 15 gal Blichmann


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When did you check the mash temp? There's going to be a little lag between your mash and the wort passing through the heat exchanger. How are you returning the wort to the mash? I have a flexible line that returns the wort to the bed and causes a slow whirlpooling action of the wort over the bed. It gets it mixed up well and the temperature of the mash settles in pretty soon after the over/under cycling settles in on the TOP.

I'm doing 10 gallon batches, mashing in a 20 gallon uninsulated kettle (except for the lid because I was too lazy to remove the insulation from it). Direct fired rims.

I'm getting more interested in the TOP myself for HERMS. My thoughts involve using the TOP to heat the HLT to a few degrees over desired mash temp. Then just recirc the mash to maintain the temp. Might take a few brews to find the perfect temp discrepancy to maintain. Any major flaws in this design? Or would I be better off adjusting based off the herms exit temp like others are describing?


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Either way will probably work, and it's only the cost of a t-fitting to try it one way versus the other. But I think the programming of the PID controller in the TOP is done with the idea that it is used to measure the wort after it passes the heat source, be it direct fired RIMS or HERMs.

Best way to find out is to try it.

In my testing with the RTD on the herms outlet the controller fires on and off too frequently once the setpoint has been reached. I have a 2nd pump in the hlt to avoid temp stratification which makes my temp drop very slow. This makes the unit turn on and off that much more. Without the second pump going the temp drops faster and its less of an issue. I'm curious if any of you had to adjust the offsets a lot to get it working right?

Bumping this to see if anyone has anything new to add. I may go this route vs direct fire with my ToP.

I've done a few batches now. I had to adjust the sensor offset using an ice bath and it was off quite a bit (13 deg). With that adjustment and using a steady state offset of around 200% I can keep the mash within a degree (lower) from the top display.

I was told by Midwest and blichmann that the frequent cycling was normal. For gas I still think it's screwy, but it holds OK. They also both told me to put a piece of tape over the alarm in the cable storage space which has prevented me from wanting to stab someone while mashing at least.

If I had it to do over again for a gas HERMS set up I think I might pursue other more advanced controllers for less money. I'll post some pictures of the set up eventually.

Hey guys, great minds think alike - I'm also moving onto the setup described in this forum. It seems I'm late to the party and people have had success. This might be useless now, but figured I'd post my conversation with a person at Blichmann:

Hi Mike,
The Tower of Power is advertised as a RIMS system because that is how it was designed to be used and is the easier way we have found to brew. In our experience HERMS is a little more complicated. However, the Tower of Power could be used as a part of a HERMS system if you wanted to do that. There are several different ways it could be incorporated, but since that is not what it was designed for I would not feel comfortable advising you on how to do it and would recommend against it.

Thank you

Quinton

Ticket: https://blichmannengineering.freshdesk.com/helpdesk/tickets/24951

On Wed, 11 May at 9:15 PM , Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello, I'm considering purchasing the TOP, which is advertised as a RIMS system. I'm wondering why it can't be considered as part of a HERMS system as well (which is what I'm considering using it for). I figure the wort can exit the MLT go through the HERMS coil in the HLT (which would have the burner under it) and then through the TOP and back into the MLT. I assume the TOP assumes direct-fired MLT, but isn't what I mentioned above pretty much an equivalent setup? Thank you for your time!

Not very helpful, but figured I'd share. Now that it has been about a year since the last post does anyone have more success stories to motivate me?