So I got to thinking

Trying to bypass buying a 240V GFCI due to $$$$ and I finally figured it out.

And I'm standing in Home Depot in the electrical isle I figured it out.

I take my current 30 Amp 240 V outlet for my Air Compressor
Make a J-Box with my extra 115V 20A GFCI outlet from my kitchen and a short jumper to plug into the 240V outlet. Then make an extension cord for my boil kettle so I can plug in my 4500W 240V Heating element to the GFCI outlet.

This should then allow me to run my 240V heating element without buying an expensive spa panel.

No more propane!

It's brilliant. Thought I would share my electrical epiphany.

Going home to test my set up now! Will report how great it works later tonight!!

um. what.

$50 for a spa panel is expensive?

bagpiperjosh said:

$50 for a spa panel is expensive?

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My thoughts exactly.

motobrewer said:

um. what.

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+1.

Spend the $50 and do it right. I can say with almost absolute certainty your idea does not meet code. Plus, the 20 Amp GFCI outlet is in no way rated for or intended to do what you describe. While I can appreciate the "out of the box" thinking, the whole idea just sounds unsafe.

Maybe I'm missing something here.

Nah, go ahead and do it. Just make sure your life and fire insurances are paid up. You want to make sure your family is taken care of after you leave them fatherless and homeless.

am I the only one that hears the sarcasm in OP?

whenever i see stuff like this I always hear Merlin from Top Gun:

Mavrick: "I'm bringing him in closer, Merlin"
Merlin: "you're gonna do WHAT!?!?"

There's supposed to be a ka'boom.

kgalle said:

There's supposed to be a ka'boom.

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LOL! Yes!

Quote from OP "Going home to test my set up now! Will report how great it works later tonight!!"

This should be interesting

Either this guy was drunk while in that Home Depot aisle or he is just busting someones chops!!
But if he was serious we should start a pool betting on what body part the 240V flame will blow a hole out of his body finding that "path of least resistant".... Hope he has a cam set up when he "plugs er in"......

Ok. I'm back. Arm is numb and hurting. But that was from something else (note to self: while breaking apart 2 dogs fighting, don't put your arm between the wifes bulldog and the dog that attacked her as she is lunging)

As some of you guys could tell, it was a joke. Although the idea did actually cross my mind as I was standing in the isle. It came from my dad and I years ago using 240v 20A twist-lock plugs for wiring some 120v wired low-bay lights in a barn. On those however, the twists were the only thing we would be using for those items, therefore nothing else ran the risk of being plugged in.

It did make me think about it though, as Voltage is the working force, why couldn't I?

As per ohms law the 120V 20A GFI is rated for 6 ohms, (120v/20A=6ohms) Therefore the same receptacle wired at 240 will allow 40A. (240v/6ohms=40A)

So it seems feasible....I do want to try it. Sure it's not "Up to Code" but in all honesty, most houses today aren't anyways as they are typically loaded over 80% of their rated factor due to cheap contractors, or guys like us who add additional circuits to power our toys. I already know my house is out of code, for both Mechanical and Electrical.

Anyways, I was counting the cost of all the wire and components needed make that transition, and I was pretty close to the cost of the 50A Spa panel in the other isle...

I'm still cheap though. I bought a 20A GFI 240V extension cord online for like $25. Should be here in a few days or a week.

Haha! You got us. Just remember to wire everything up with 220/221. You know, whatever it takes.

landshark said:

So it seems feasible....I do want to try it. Sure it's not "Up to Code" but in all honesty, most houses today aren't anyways as they are typically loaded over 80% of their rated factor due to cheap contractors, or guys like us who add additional circuits to power our toys. I already know my house is out of code, for both Mechanical and Electrical.

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"it was a joke guys. but seriously....I want to try it"

it wont work, it will trip the minute you try to run a load between the two hots (assuming the two hots are even opposing phases in the first place).

Check with this guy - maybe you can just get "Ground-fault Insurance".

landshark said:

So it seems feasible....I do want to try it. Sure it's not "Up to Code" but in all honesty, most houses today aren't anyways as they are typically loaded over 80% of their rated factor due to cheap contractors, or guys like us who add additional circuits to power our toys. I already know my house is out of code, for both Mechanical and Electrical.

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Exactly. About 5 years ago we refinished our attic. We had a lot of knob and tube up there and we had it replaced by a company that is sort of the gold standard electrical company in my area. Code in my area means everything in EMT. We were down to studs up there and I noticed amid all the new conduit some Romex in the walls below me from previous electrical work on the house. I asked the electrician about it as the inspector was supposed to come by later today. He said not to worry. The guy won't be looking there.

I asked if it was hazardous and he said, "all of Europe looks like that. It's fine."

I've really never understood this idea of something not being to code and it causing a problem with your insurance. I mean, you buy a 90 year old house like I did and there's knob and tube and all kinds of things out of code. Does anyone have any insight into this? I mean, it's not just myself on the hook for the house, the bank owns most of it and requires insurance. I don't imagine State Farm gets a free pass if they find some knob and tube or not to code wiring somewhere following an 'incident,' (knock wood).

In fact, our entire house is existing non-conforming to current zoning. When we got a zoning variance to build a dormer in the attic, my architect told me that technically, if a tree fell on my house, they could refuse to give me the right to fix it the way it was because it's against the zoning code.

I mean, whose to say that anything that causes a problem wasn't in the house when you bought it?

SWMBOs mom does insurance. Her advice was any work like electrical/plumbing/structural to get a licensed an bonded electrician/plumber/contractor. Pretty much anything beyond cosmetic or general handyman. The reason? Because your insurance company will do as much as they can to get off the hook for paying out. They are, after all, a business based on profit. If the insurance company finds out that your house burned down because you, your buddy, and some homebrew rewired your basement. They may not pay.

Dgonza9, Old, out of date electrical wiring is allowed to be "grandfathered" in. If it met code at the time it was constructed, it's okay now (in most areas). That doesn't mean that it's safe though, or gives you a warm fuzzy. You can have the house inspected prior to purchasing it and tell the current owner you want some items brought up to code, but they're under no obligation to do so. The results of which can vary based on the skill level of the home inspector. If people had to bring their homes up to current codes, it would be very expensive, especially here on Long Island; arc fault breakers, tamper resistant receptacles, etc.

petey_c said:

Dgonza9, Old, out of date electrical wiring is allowed to be "grandfathered" in. If it met code at the time it was constructed, it's okay now (in most areas). That doesn't mean that it's safe though, or gives you a warm fuzzy. You can have the house inspected prior to purchasing it and tell the current owner you want some items brought up to code, but they're under no obligation to do so. The results of which can vary based on the skill level of the home inspector. If people had to bring their homes up to current codes, it would be very expensive, especially here on Long Island; arc fault breakers, tamper resistant receptacles, etc.

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I understand. Anything I do is done to code. I'm just thinking out loud about the relative frequency of an insurance claim being denied for something that is not to code that was not pre-existing. Seems hard to prove and sort through in a house like mine.

Cheers!

Yeah, I'd asked four insurance companies about that. I'd seen some comments in an electrical forum, got curious and did some digging. They all said they'd pay. I'd think as long as it wasn't a blatant disregard for safety, or a rental you owned, or someone was injured. I carry a disclaimer, of sorts, in my truck. Basically it says if I find something that's not right (to code or safety) I bring it to your attention and you choose not to correct it, it's all on you.

landshark said:

It did make me think about it though, as Voltage is the working force, why couldn't I?

As per ohms law the 120V 20A GFI is rated for 6 ohms, (120v/20A=6ohms) Therefore the same receptacle wired at 240 will allow 40A. (240v/6ohms=40A)

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The driving force in a circuit breaker is the current, especially if it's using a solenoid to trip at the rated current. Therefore, whether you're running 120V or 240V through it doesn't matter, it will always trip once it hits 20A.

Except you cant wire a 120V gfi with 240, you would have an extra wire. 240 is achieved by going between two 120V circuits that are 180 degree's apart, its not one conductor that is 240V going to neutral like a 120V circuit is.

ryclo said:

Except you cant wire a 120V gfi with 240, you would have an extra wire. 240 is achieved by going between two 120V circuits that are 180 degree's apart, its not one conductor that is 240V going to neutral like a 120V circuit is.

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I was discussing this question/idea with the electrical engineers I work with and they brought up the same issue. It wouldn't be a GFI anymore. As the "Nuetral" is now "Hot". I'm not familiar enough with the way a GFI outlet is manufactured and wired to be sure.

landshark said:

I'm not familiar enough with the way a GFI outlet is manufactured and wired to be sure.

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someone call the obviousmobile.

Here is a 30 amp GFI cord for $25. They charged 12 to ship but it was still a good deal. It's the same one that Kal uses for the Electric Brewery.

http://www.hosfeltelectronics.com/contents/en-us/d702.html#p5341

Note: For some reason this link/website isn't working in internet explorer but it worked with Firefox.

awheeler said:

Here is a 30 amp GFI cord for $25. They charged 12 to ship but it was still a good deal. It's the same one that Kal uses for the Electric Brewery.

http://www.hosfeltelectronics.com/contents/en-us/d702.html#p5341

Note: For some reason this link/website isn't working in internet explorer but it worked with Firefox.

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That's actually the GFI I ordered. They are horrible about letting you know when things are being shipped though. Ordered it actually before I made the first post.

It really should work. A GFCI trips when the amount of current through one leg (be it neutral or a hot) does not equal the amount of current through the other. The ground has no impact on this, but rather allows for the current to travel to the ground if it would like. Of course, if that were to happen then the current into (or out of) the hot does not leave the Neutral and rather the ground.

Internally the neutral and hot travel through an electromagnet. At any given time the amount of current through that electromagnet is zero. Either there is no electrical flow, or the flow out is EXACTLY the same as the flow in. In the OP's example, yes, the GFCI should work to wire a 240 line, but only a 240 line.