In Contempt of Extract

Anyone else completely despise extract? I am very glad I switched to all grain, the improvement in my brews taste has been exponential.

I have a number of cases of extract brews that I just am not into at all, but I surely will drink them as late night slammers. they all have the same ( or very similar ) taste, they were about all composed of 3.3 lb cans of LME and 2-3 LBs DME plus 1 to 3 oz of hops. Sure extracts potential is dictated by what you do with it, but I have re-brewed beers again as AG batches, and they blow the extract batches away... how old could the extract in my lhbs's kits have been? I know my flavors are unique to my situation, but I am saying this is what I hate about it!


One thing extract did for me ( and you as well I'm sure) was introduce (most of ) the brewing process and basically prepare me for all grain, so I have to have to pay some respect.
Basically what I am getting at is extract does suck really bad, I know that there are a lot of brewers that stand up for it, and that is understood...

Anyone else completely despise extract or have a really bad experiance with it? Anyone really hate it for its demonic flavors? anyone that doesnt stand up for it?

I can taste the difference between extract and AG, especially in green beer. Time definately helps. I wouldn't say I despise extract, because, without I might not have ever got into brewing.

If you were trying to get someone to try brewing and showed them all your all grain equipment and carboys, kettles, coolers, kegs, bottles, refrigerators and freezers they would respond "Do I have to buy all this stuff just to make beer?".

both your guys points ring true, extract definatly has its place, but I think I may have moved beyond it.

While I did make some very good beers with just extract and steeping grains, it wasn't until I got away from canned LME that I was able to do so consistently. Using fresher, bulk LME from my LHBS or online stores made a big difference.

Making the jump to partial mash (with about 70% of fermentables from grain) made an enormous difference in quality, and the final leap to all-grain was a lesser but still significant improvement. Beyond that, the opportunities for experimentation and fine tuning are the real benefits of all-grain, and what will keep me interested and enthusiastic about the hobby for years to come. Still, there is a real place for extract in homebrewing, and somebody who knows what they are doing can make excellent beers with it.

Great point. It was an introduction to me just like bottling to kegging. I brewed one LME batch and bottled it, came acrossed a fridge and my 2nd and 3rd batch will be kegged. It is the same thing w/going from LME/DME to partial and so on. It sounded intimidating to even start brewing beer. Now it's fairly simple and partial mashes intimidate me. I don't want to screw it up. The equipment isn't that much more from what I've read...it's just different! I will get there sooner than later especially if the brews get better. That's is what we're ALL here for!

GO the Extract!

I have now produced 28 brews since Christmas (Yeah less than 6 months) and my beer palate has changed significantly. I am happy with my extract brews for 4 reasons.

* I MADE THEM MYSELF
* THEY TASTE BETTER THAN 95% of the beeers I can purchase here in AUS
* I save a LOT of money with every batch.
*I have learned everythign I can about Sanitation, carbonation, kegging, Temperature control Fermenting etc from Extract kits.

When I am convinced that my beers are as good as they can get, and I need to go AG to advance, then I'll do it, but until then, I have nothing but good things to say about extract brewing.

Anyone who says they "despise" extract, has been doing it wrong

As a matter of fact I believe it is INFINITELY easier to screw up an AG batch, which leads me to my next point.... If you can't make good beer with extract, you have NO CHANCE of making good beer from all Grain...especially straight away....

in the last 2 1/2 years since i made the switch i've pretty much developed the same opinion steve, but recently i'm thinking that i'm becoming kind of a snob.
here's something to think about. i know the brewmaster at a local brew pub in the area. he used to work at the brew shop i go to, and tasted an extract framboise that i brewed a good while back. when i saw him a few weeks ago, he still remembered the beer and asked me to e-mail him the recipe so he could brew it.
sure the possibilities with all grain are infinitely greater than with extract, but i think what it comes down to though is good beer is good beer.
also, great point wbc. i would have never gotten into it not only due to the intimidation factor, but i couldn't have afforded it all at once and wouldn't have had the patience to wait until i accumulated all the gadgetry.

BlindLemonLars said:

While I did make some very good beers with just extract and steeping grains, it wasn't until I got away from canned LME that I was able to do so consistently. Using fresher, bulk LME from my LHBS or online stores made a big difference.

Making the jump to partial mash (with about 70% of fermentables from grain) made an enormous difference in quality, and the final leap to all-grain was a lesser but still significant improvement.

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I believe Monsieur Lemon nailed it. Fresh extract from a place with high turnover is the key to avoiding that "extract twang" or a sameness of taste. Too many award winning beers have been made with extract to dismiss it entirely, though as Ray Daniels points out in "Designing Great Beers," none of those award winners (at least the ones covered in his book) consisted of extract alone. They were all extract+steeping grains or extract plus a partial mash. The jump to AG is one of those margin of diminishing returns things. The potential for quality improvement is there, but at a greatly increased investment in time, energy and money.

Chad

Is it the extract or the brewer?

brewt00l wrote:
Is it the extract or the brewer?

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bad extract + bad brewer = bad beer
bad extract + good brewer = bad beer
good extract + bad brewer = bad beer
good extract + good brewer = good beer
Odd are in favor of bad beer from extract?

I agree with the pro-AGers. I have said it before and I will say it again... I have heard of all the extract award winners.... but I have never tasted one

My beers are worlds away with AG.

In addition, everyones tastes are different. If you are just getting into microbrews and good beer, extract will taste amazing. If you have been a beer snob for a while, and have sampled over 2000 beers and frequent tastings, etc. etc. etc. your standards will be much higher. For me, I could not comfortably show my brews to my friends until I went AG and was producing professional grade beers. Even now, if a recipe is not great, the beers are just mediocre. It is very difficult to produce a beer that will wow a beer snob, and I think AG is a necessary tool to do so.

2000 beers? and you reckon you know which ones were "Good Beers?"


Good luck with that

Beer snobs are over rated, just like wine snobs or scotch snobs. Pretty much ALL of them are extreme wankers that offend the people that can and DO deal in reality.
What I am saying is that even the most refined palate still lends itself to certain traits that are unobtainable to most of us.

I am not saying anything negative about AG, other than you have to be fairly good at it to be better than the professionals that produce my extracts.. all day long.. every day.. getting the same results... taking 1/4 the time and pretty much the same cost with half the equipment.

I will go AG, and I hope my beers improve when I do, but I will never look down my nose at extract brewers the way a LOT of AG brewers do.. it just shows the arrogance of an EAC

AnOldUR said:

good extract + good brewer = good beer

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+1...eventhough I'm all about AG brewing, I've had some good extract beers made by experienced brewers...

I've had some very good extract brews, and some terrible ones. One of my friends brought over a couple last weekend that her future son-in-law brewed. I thought they were very good, and enjoyed them. He's been brewing less than a year, and I know they were extract beers.

I've had some AG beers that were not nearly as good as his extract beers. Now, I have had some AG beers that I enjoyed more. That doesn't mean that AG is necessarily better. My beers are better than they used to be, that's for sure. But, so is my temperature control, my racking ability, my yeast pitching rates, my length of time in the fermenter, my cold break, etc.

I love having the control over more variables with AG. I can more easily control the OG, the FG, the attenuation, the color, etc. But to say that extract is "lesser" than AG is just not true.

I realize this subject is in the AG forum, and so perhaps it should be taken a little differently than if it were in the Extract one, but not everyone has the space, budget, or frankly the interest in doing AG.

I have recently started brewing again, and am doing Extract/Steeping Grains on every batch, and am happy with that right now. If somebody wants to look down their nose at me for that, it's your problem, not mine.

[MOD EDIT] This thread has since been moved to "General Beer Discussions"

I've brewed some very good extract beers, and I've had some extract beers that I would put up against any other beer. I've also had some terribly crappy AG beers. There is nothing magic about all-grain brewing. The largest advantage an all-grain brewer has is more control and predictability over the quality of the ingredients.


TL

AnOldUR said:

bad extract + bad brewer = bad beer
bad extract + good brewer = bad beer
good extract + bad brewer = bad beer
good extract + good brewer = good beer
Odd are in favor of bad beer from extract?

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definitely illustrates that there are a number of factors that contribute to the outcome....fresh/quality ingredients & brewing skill/technique being another. Does it provide any argument that extract = bad beer? Nah.

I should also add; while I've had some horrible extract beers, I've never had any really bad AG beers. IMO, that is directly related to the brewer's level of experience. Most noobs don't have the foresight to go straight to AG...

The core issue that I suspect the OP is having with extract is those GD 3.3# cans, cans that have been sitting around for who knows long on the HBS's shelf. It's not fair to paint extract as being contemptible if you're not using fresh product. If the only tomatoes I ever ate were ones that I picked out of the supermarket's dumpster, well, I'd probably say that I didn't particularly care for tomatoes, you know?

The problem with this anaology is that most beginners start with extract and have some problems while they learn, once they learn the process, many move to AG or PM. The problem with saying AG is better than Extract is that a majority of AG brewers are experienced while the extract brewers are not. It might not be that the grains are better than extract, it might be you are becoming a better brewer.

Jamil's book has lots of extract recipes in it and I have no doubt we could all make good beers using a full boil and extract.

Linc

Soulive said:

I should also add; while I've had some horrible extract beers, I've never had any really bad AG beers. IMO, that is directly related to the brewer's level of experience. Most noobs don't have the foresight to go straight to AG...

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I agree.

Still after 14 + years of extract brewing with grains I still don't ever expect to go all grain.

I've tweaked and tweaked my recipes and have developed a very workable process and am quite pleased with the results.

I've been told several times that I can save $$$ if I switched (the only valid reason I've been given), but since I don't make #5.00/hr I see no reason to switch.

Despise extract? No obviously not. I don't despise anything about extract.

However, having said that it is not for me. My beers are much improved after moving to AG, but that could be a number of factors involved in that. Personally, for me, I did not feel like a brewer when I was making beer with extract. To me, it felt like putting a TV dinner in the microwave and calling myself a chef. Of course, an extract brewer is just as much of a brewer as I am (I am certainly not trying to imply otherwise), I am just saying that extract was not for me. That does not mean that I despise it though.

cubbies said:

Despise extract? No obviously not. I don't despise anything about extract.

However, having said that it is not for me. My beers are much improved after moving to AG, but that could be a number of factors involved in that. Personally, for me, I did not feel like a brewer when I was making beer with extract. To me, it felt like putting a TV dinner in the microwave and calling myself a chef. Of course, an extract brewer is just as much of a brewer as I am (I am certainly not trying to imply otherwise), I am just saying that extract was not for me. That does not mean that I despise it though.

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That chef analogy has been used before, but nowadays most ingredients for restaurants...no matter how upscale they are...come from a can...are still tweaked by the chef...ahem, extract brewer...

the_bird said:

The core issue that I suspect the OP is having with extract is those GD 3.3# cans, cans that have been sitting around for who knows long on the HBS's shelf. It's not fair to paint extract as being contemptible if you're not using fresh product. If the only tomatoes I ever ate were ones that I picked out of the supermarket's dumpster, well, I'd probably say that I didn't particularly care for tomatoes, you know?

Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head. If we could only buy pre-crushed grain from the LHBS, many brewers may not see such a jump in quality between using ancient extract and going AG.


TL

I brew AG. But I don't brew AG for any reason except that it is MORE FUN. My extract brews were good, my AG brews are good.

I completed my first all grain last night. (2 nights of work). It is now fermenting. I can't wait to taste it. I have had others all grain and they were excellent. :rockin:

I do not think that using an extract for a base is a bad idea. I have brewed a couple of all extract brews and they were good, but I can tell a difference with the PM. If I am going to a party and someone wants homebrew that usually drinks BMC, I will through 6 pounds of a light DME and some hops together. I went on a camping trip and this beer lasted about half of the night.

THat said, I think that you need a good amount of grains in your beer when PM'ing to get a great flavor. I think that my darker beers have always been better than my lighter beers, since I use many different malts. The more complex the flavor, the less noticeable the base malt will be.

homebrewer_99 said:

That chef analogy has been used before, but nowadays most ingredients for restaurants...no matter how upscale they are...come from a can...are still tweaked by the chef...ahem, extract brewer...

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I dont disagree. I was not trying to imply that an extract brewer was to brewing what a microwaver is to being a chef...I was just saying that that is how I personally felt.

Here are my feelings on extract, if anyone cares. First off, I don't use it because of the inability to control as much as I want. Secondly, I don't use it because of the price. Thirdly, I don't use it because I didn't have much success with it. If you don't care about the control, price, and you have success with it - great! I had some extract IPA a few months ago that was awesome. If I could've made that beer in 2 hours for more money, I probably would have. I just never had satisfaction when using extract...

This thread has inspired me to brew an extract kit...I think this one will do nicely.

Cheers!

I think a good analogy for the way I look at all-grain vs. extract is this:

guy A has a Ferrari.

guy B has a Geo.

guy A is driving his Ferrari the 65 on the highway while guy B is driving his Geo 70 on the same highway. Guy B passes the Ferrari in his Geo.

If we equate the Geo to extract (just an example of a car slower than a Ferrari, don't be offended) and the Ferrari to AG, just because an all-grain brewer brews a beer that is not as good as an extract brew (Ferrari going slower than the Geo) does not mean that the AG brewer could not make a beer that is vastly superior to the extract brew (the Ferrari could stand on the gas and smoke the Geo).

That said, I do not despise extract at all and made fine beers with good fresh extract in my extract days. All I am saying, is that with AG, the amount of variability, control, and choice of the freshest ingredients leads to better tasting brew. It can also lead to a way worse brew in the wrong hands (giving your ******* teenager the keys to your Ferrari). In short, I think extract is a great thing to get into this hobby, and takes a lot less time, and is cheaper up front, and has a whole slough of advantages over AG. The only reason I do AG, is that I believe my final product to be superior.

Hunting season is on, blast away!

I brew extract AND all grain. Some of my recipes have better results from extract while others are better from all grain. Technique and control of the variables are key. Variables are in play from moment you start prepping to the moment you finish the last glass.

Brew what works for you!

LET THERE BE NO 'HATE' WITH BEER!!! I love beer making; enjoyed my extract experiences, but like others have said...AG is more control and it is, I believe, a better product in the end. Nothing more fun than researching a style, creating a recipe, and executing via AG method... total control for the control freaks!!! Love it.

But, to my Extract brewing brothers... you are good to go!!! Keep blazing that beer trail.

I only had sucess with extract when I used DME. I don't know if I always had bad LME, or I just didn't know how to brew with it.

I only have two AG batches under my belt, and both are damn good.

My pitch to the SWMBO for switching to AG was to save money, but the fact that I bought a larger pot, cooler, bazooka screens, burner and then decided that I wanted to put my AG beer into kegs.... I haven't saved any money yet. While AG might be cheaper in the long run, I think it takes a while to break even when you initially start out.

I say brew with what works for you. For the longest time I thought that everyone who had been brewing for more than a few years were all AG brewers, but some of the most senior members on this forum are brewing extract and I'm willing to bet their beers are better than mine.

Well I never did a canned extract beer before so I can’t comment on them. The first beer I ever made was a Queens pale ale kit I bought from Homebrew heaven the kit has dry malt extract, seeping grains and pellet hops.

I brewed 6 different kits from them; all had their own character look and taste. Never had the extract twang to them and all were quite good.

I have since made the transition to AG but I would not hesitate to buy an extract kit from them again.

I'm with Soulive. The only decent lighter beer I ever made with extract was a really over the top IPA, where I used massive amounts of hops to cancel the twang. I used the freshed LME I could find, never from a can. I personally watched the delivery of a new barrel to my LHBS and used it less than four hours after purchase. Twang! I switched to DME and full boils. Twang! I used the late addition method. Twang!

I had some better success with stouts and porters, but the twang was still present. I don't know if it was me or the extract, but after going to AG brewing I have had nothing but success and am easily able to make light, crisp ales, exactly(or better) than the kind I drink at my local micro. The equipment and time sink are not that much greater, and the beer is waaaay better, IMHO.

That's why I refuse to use extract.

blacklab said:

I'm with Soulive. The only decent lighter beer I ever made with extract was a really over the top IPA, where I used massive amounts of hops to cancel the twang. I used the freshed LME I could find, never from a can. I personally watched the delivery of a new barrel to my LHBS and used it less than four hours after purchase. Twang! I switched to DME and full boils. Twang! I used the late addition method. Twang!

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I shudder at the very mention of twang...

cubbies said:

Despise extract? No obviously not. I don't despise anything about extract.

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While I love the simplicity of extract brewing, I despise dealing with dumping the extract in the kettle... A sticky mess.. bleh...