Opening a Brewpub

SSBrew - 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Torchiest

Torchiest

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
1,760
Reaction score
12
Location
Houston, TX
I am planning on going in with one other person and opening a bar together. We have almost two decades of combined bar experience between us, and a decade of management experience. I also want to do commercial brewing, and had been planning that before the bar idea came along. So now, I'm thinking we could do a brew pub together.

Does anyone know of any good sources of information about commercial scale brewing, equipment, maintaining yeast cultures, and things like that? I'm not ready to go all out just yet, but I'd say within a couple years at most I'll be doing this for real. I've been doing some pricing of equipment, and I'm thinking a system of around 1 - 3 BBLs might be about right for the concept we're developing.

I know BrewPastor did it a brewery for real, and his story and experience was amazing, but I don't want to do it quite so big. All the brewmasters I've spoken with say a brewpub is a lot easier, and the profit margin is better. So, any information or links would be greatly appreciated.
 
I know there are a couple of of books. "Brewing up a Business" by Sam Calagione and "The Brewer's Association Guide to Starting your Own Brewery" by Ray Daniels.

I don't know how good/bad either one is. But both are on my list of books to buy.
 
I've been reading "Brewing Up a Business." It's pretty good, but it's more of a general business book with examples from brewing, rather than one that gets into the details of larger scale brewing. I've heard the Brewer's Association Guide isn't very good, but I might end up getting it anyway eventually.
 
From everything I've heard, you need to be a business person first and a brewer second to be successful. Knowing how to come up with a good business plan is crucial.
This is why I'll never become a professional brewer. :drunk:
 
I've also heard that a brewpub is judged as much on it's food and service as much as its beer, so you essentially need to open a brewery AND a restaraunt at the same time. The other thing I've heard is that you won't be able to distribute your beer at other restaraunts, because you'd be competing with them. In addition to reading up on beer buisness, read up on food service (and people who are in the restuarant buiness will tell you, it aint no picnic ;) ) Perhaps add Kitchen Confidential by Anthony Bourdain to your list. It isn't a buisness guide, but it's damn funny and gives you a very real and frightening view of the food buisness from the other side of the kitchen doors.

mike
 
A one- to- three barrel setup seems like it might be a little bit on the small side; have you checked with other brewpubs in the area to see what size setups they use? I noticed that the smallish brewpub I frequent has a 5bbl system, and even that doesn't look too large. Hate to see you have a successful operation, then need to completely upgrade your system within a short period of time.

Either of you have any experience running a restaurant? As Rich says, that's at least as important as running the brewery side.

You've also got to make sure you've got enough capital behind you (I know, the hardest part). My sense is that most business ventures like this do not fail because the beer is bad, or the food is bad, or anything directly related to the operations, but because they do not have succifient capital to get the business established.

Oh - GOOD LUCK! This definately sounds cool, sounds like it will be a ton of work, but it's something that I think all of us would love to do.
 
We just formed our L.L.C. for a distribution setup. Originally we were going to go the route of a brewpub, but the thought of brewing all day and then having to go run a bar wasn't too appealing. Granted the profit is definitely there selling pints though.....


It's a long road you have ahead of you. Good Luck!
 
Echoing what others have said: if you do a brewpub, brewing becomes a distant third on the list of important things.

First is running the restaurant. You can have all the good beer in the world, but if your food is mediocre and the service sucks, you're toast. (My two cents here -- I think many brewpubs try to be too upscale or do too much with their menus).

Second, distribution (assuming you're going to distribute). Finding other retail outlets and a good way to get beer to them is key.

Finally, the beer. EVen way down here on the list it can make or break you, but it should be getting less of your attention than the first two.

Also, the 1-3 bbl system sounds really small to me. The brewpub where I used to work had a 15-bbl kettle and 8 or 10 30-bbl fermenters (they do bottling and regional distro, though). and there's a local berwery here (no pub) that just distributes kegs to maybe three dozen local restaurants, and his system is a 10-bbl kettle, 2x7-bbl fermenters, a 10-bbl fermenter and a 20 -bbl fermenter.
Hes a former homebrewer and a great guy, and might be willing to talk to you if you have questions: http://www.eastendbrewing.com/
 
Chimone said:
We just formed our L.L.C. for a distribution setup. Originally we were going to go the route of a brewpub, but the thought of brewing all day and then having to go run a bar wasn't too appealing. Granted the profit is definitely there selling pints though.....


It's a long road you have ahead of you. Good Luck!
Click to expand...

So you are going that route now? Cool!
 
The rule of thumb I have heard is to estimate 5-7 Bbl per seat per year.
So if you have a 50 seat restaurant that would be between 250 and 350 Bbl/ year.
If you have a 1 Bbl system you will pretty much be brewing every day of the year.

gg life.

however a 3Bbl system puts you at brewing aout 2x/week
 
MLynchLtd said:
... The other thing I've heard is that you won't be able to distribute your beer at other restaraunts, because you'd be competing with them. ...
Click to expand...
I think that may depend on where you're located and how reputable your brewpub is. I know that where I live, some of the other brewpubs, restaurants and bars in the area will feature another brewpub's beers either permanently or as 'guest taps'. You're right in that you won't see mass distribution, though.

In addition to the other great suggestions posted here, I'd also suggest a course at The Siebel Institute. It seems every brewery or brewpub I have been to underwent a change for the better after their brewers went there. And the ones that were great from the beginning all had courses there in their resume. I plan to take a short course in homebrewing there myself someday.:)

They are beginning a new course which might be of interest. Check out the Start Your Own Brewery Course. (Notice the name of the contact person.) I know this course took place in May, but you might want to contact them to see if/when it will be coming up again.
 
the_bird said:
So you are going that route now? Cool!
Click to expand...

Yea we thought and thought about how we wanted to do this. And running a bar/restaurant just doesnt sound like much fun. and not to be a downer on your idea, its just not for us


yea a 1-3 BBL would work for a pilot system, but will be way to small I think for brewing operations for the pub itself. You would end up having to brew way too much to try and keep up with demand
 
If youare considering starting on a 1 bbl system anyway, why not save the money and cobble together a glorified homebrew system? A few 50 gallon soup pots, pumps and a bit of welding is far cheaper to start on than shiney copper.

You can keep your money for the inevitable upgrade.
 
A couple of comments:
Rmember, impressions to the customer are important. If you start off a bit oversized, at least you will be labeled positively, vs. taking a chance of being labled "rinky-dink".
Second -- location is critical. As much as you'd like to think your place will be a destination location, from what I have seen the most successful brewpubs are in busy areas that already have plentiful nightclub/restaurant and daytime lunch activity. Alternatively, being very close to a major sports/concert venue can work in your favor, too.
Get the buzz going -- as far as 2-3 months before your scheduled opening get some press releases out to some local papers and the "brew rags" if they have any of them in your area. Possibly even go as far as getting samples of your best brews into the hands of folks that might write favorably about them (or review them on local tv etc.).

Good luck, have fun, be ready for a lot of work -- owning your own business is great but plan on it being a major consumer of your time!
 
Be careful how you advertise too-- I've seen places try to advertise by putting up photocopied ads on billboards and that leaves some with the impression that it's a fly-by-night operation.

And for cripes sake have really clean glasses. If I walk into one more brew pub that hands me a beer in a spotty glass I think I'm gonna scream.
 
Does a brewpub have to include a restaurant? Couldn't someone open a bar that is mostly commercial beers with 2 or 3 "house brews". That way a small system would be sufficiant.

Just wondering.
 
Driftless Brewer said:
Does a brewpub have to include a restaurant? Couldn't someone open a bar that is mostly commercial beers with 2 or 3 "house brews". That way a small system would be sufficiant.

Just wondering.
Click to expand...


lots of liquor licenses, especially a class 6 (well out this way anyways) require you to sell food along with alcohol. Now that could be frozen pizzas and hot pockets, or a nice restaurant. But why sell great beer with piss poor food?
 
Hey Torchiest, where's Seabrook? If it's any where near Corpus I'll be out to visit you....

Good luck!
 
Lots of great points already in the thread.

I have noticed that around here a brewpub with good food and mediocre beer will stay in business while one with good beer and mediocre food will shut its doors in 6 months. That says to me that the underlying reality is that you are running a restruant first and a brewery second. This always took some of the shine off the idea for me.
 
Chimone said:
lots of liquor licenses, especially a class 6 (well out this way anyways) require you to sell food along with alcohol. Now that could be frozen pizzas and hot pockets, or a nice restaurant. But why sell great beer with piss poor food?
Click to expand...

I just remembered that there is a small brewpub in my home town of Cedarburg, WI that is just a bar, but they sell a very nice (by nice I mean high quality and good precentation) cheese plate. That's the only food they sell, but it must be enough to stay within the rules and regulations.

Torchiest, this might be the size establishment you are interested in. Check them out at http://www.silvercreekbrewing.com/
 
Just an FYI. There is an micro brewery for sale in Fort Worth. Drove by it the other day. Looked like all the equipment was still there. Might be worth checking out, could be a cheaper way to start up, and it is just a few miles north of down town.
 
Ryanh1801 said:
Just an FYI. There is an micro brewery for sale in Fort Worth. Drove by it the other day. Looked like all the equipment was still there. Might be worth checking out, could be a cheaper way to start up, and it is just a few miles north of down town.
Click to expand...


great point,

a turn key operation thats already making money is a good way to go. You have a better chance to receive money from a bank for this venture if the place is already turning a profit.


but then again....why would someone be selling it if it's doing well? Just look at both sides of the whole situation.
 
Chimone said:
great point,

a turn key operation thats already making money is a good way to go. You have a better chance to receive money from a bank for this venture if the place is already turning a profit.


but then again....why would someone be selling it if it's doing well? Just look at both sides of the whole situation.
Click to expand...

They went out of business. I looked up the place, I think it was only open for 2 years and has been for sale for another 2 years. So I was thinking It might be easy to make a deal. What was crazy about finding it was just two min. before that I was talking to my mom and she was saying I should look into doing something like that after college. Then out of no where I see that place. :drunk:
 
Ryanh1801 said:
They went out of business. I looked up the place, I think it was only open for 2 years and has been for sale for another 2 years. So I was thinking It might be easy to make a deal. What was crazy about finding it was just two min. before that I was talking to my mom and she was saying I should look into doing something like that after college. Then out of no where I see that place. :drunk:
Click to expand...

The fact that it hasn't sold for two years is a HUGE red flag.

The other thing no one has mentioned yet - and I wonder if this could be the issue here - is like everything, location is absolutely critical. There will be a few adventurous souls who will seek you out; for the bulk of your business, the new customers will come by because you are convenient or because they noticed you while they were doing something else. You've got to have a good location or the rest of it is for naught.
 
which is another reason we are going distribution. Location doesnt mean as much as it does if you need customers to come to you. We can go out into the sticks, get a great deal on land and since we are outside the city, zoning wont be as much of a problem. We may have a small bar for "tasting" purposes, but wont really be counting on that money to pay the bills.
 
A slight aside, I wrote up a short review of McSorleys Ale House in NY a while back that might be interesting, given the topic here. An example of a pub that brews it's own with no food to speak of that's been around for generations. Anyone who's been there knows that the tone of the review is no hyperbole ;)

http://www.geocities.com/thelastknght/mcsorleys.html

my apologies for the site, its not done my any means

mike
 
Once again it all depends on location. Im sure you could do a brew pub without any food if you, i dont know....put it right next to a university for example.

there are quite a few people out there that do just want to drink good beer.
 
MLynchLtd said:
A slight aside, I wrote up a short review of McSorleys Ale House in NY a while back that might be interesting, given the topic here. An example of a pub that brews it's own with no food to speak of that's been around for generations. Anyone who's been there knows that the tone of the review is no hyperbole ;)

http://www.geocities.com/thelastknght/mcsorleys.html

my apologies for the site, its not done my any means

mike
Click to expand...

When I was there, I asked them specifically if and where they brewed their beer, since it was so distinctive, so-named (light and dark) and I had recalled reading about them brewing their own, especially through Prohibition.

The bartender answered that their beer is brewed off site for them. There is no brewery on premise anymore. I would suspect that it is now brewed by FX Matt or some other such 'local' contract brewer (Greenpoint Beer Works comes to mind.) Since they are then technically just selling beer, they are 'just a bar' (also the oldest continuous bar in the country).

And as far as the food/beer balance goes, for certain alcohol licences, the food must account for a certain percentage of the total sales in the restaurant. I'm sure this percentage varies with the region.

And finally, my local brew-pub not only brews for themself but also distribute draft beer within the city to other bars. They have a 10bbl brewhouse, and keep the city fairly well stocked with good beer. Somehow they have beat the 'competition' problems by making very very good beer. That always helps, of course.
 
Wow! I almost left this thread for dead a couple days ago. Glad to see so many people offering advice. To answer some questions and provide more information:

The place I bartend and manage at has been open for nine years, and I've been there since it opened. It was originally a brewpub/pizzeria, but the brewery was closed down after two years due to financial problems and disputes between some of the owners. The restaurant/pub has done amazingly well in the meantime. I've got tons of experience managing the place, although I'm not the GM. My friend has a finance degree and is the GM of a neighboring coffeeshop/winebar that also has a good beer selection, so I think between the two of us, we have the bases covered.

We're both at about the same place financially, and we think that in a year or so we could open a modest yet appealing place for about $60k without having to take any loans whatsoever, and with money to live on in the mean time.

Some legal stuff. In Texas, you can be either a brewery, and are not allowed to sell beer directly to customers, or be a brewpub, and are not allowed to distribute your beer. I don't know if you absolutely HAVE to have food if you're a brewpub; it seems like a lot of people make this assumption but I'm not sure. Another good friend of mine wants to open a BBQ delivery place, and I've considered asking him if he'd want to join up and run the food side for me. And my fiance's brother is lending me his copy of Kitchen Confidential! :D

Our concept would be a full liquor bar, basic wine, a good selection of bottled beers, and then just my brews on tap. I think if I were running 4-5 brews on a regular basis, and had a 3BBL system, I wouldn't have to brew all that much to keep up, at least not at first. But the place wouldn't be too big.

As for marketing, I already have a kickass (I think) concept for my beers with the World Domination theme. I also have a ton of beer drinking friends from working at this pub for almost a decade, and a mailing list that I use to send out newsletters about the latest beers I'm brewing and such.

Oh yes, Seabrook is about 20 miles southeast of Houston down I-45, near NASA's Johnson Space Center.

Thanks again to everyone for all the position remarks and helpful comments!
 
I'm very interested to hear how your experience goes. I'm also considering opening up a brewpub in TX in a few years when I'm done w/ my military career. We're considering Tyler, which is smack dab in the middle of a dry county. ;) Everyone there who wants a beer has to either a) drive to another county to buy from a package store or b) go to a restaurant. There are no brewpubs in that part of the state that I'm aware of. All the good restaurants there stay packed. Done right, it would make a killing, plus I think it would be a great 2nd career! I think a few really good staple beers + a specialty brew, a simple menu of good food, a laid back atmosphere - maybe a lounge area like Starbucks, with live music on the weekends, and you'd have something novel that people would really enjoy.
 
It will probably cost more to open the brew pub than 60k. I would really consider going with an ugly 50 gallon system long before you get the brew pub 3 vessel 3bbl. You will only be producing 1/2 as much in a single brew but you will also be saving 10s of thousands on equipment and installation etc. You are better of starting small with capital to grow.
 
Chimone said:
lots of liquor licenses, especially a class 6 (well out this way anyways) require you to sell food along with alcohol. Now that could be frozen pizzas and hot pockets, or a nice restaurant. But why sell great beer with piss poor food?
Click to expand...

Licenses can get damn expensive. Here in OH it will cost you $3,975 annually to retain an A1 class license that's required to produce your own beer for sale. Then if you want to offer beer from anyone else you also have to get a C1 (or C3 if you want beer AND wine) for another few hundred a year. On the plus side, OH allows self-distribution.

I haven't been brewing for very long, but this is something that I dream of doing one day as well. I need to get a lot more brewing experience, but I'm in management at a large company so I know how to make the business side work. I also worked 8 years in the restaurant industry and have a sister that's managed a sportsbar for 10 years or so now.

I'm done some preliminary research on this, so here are some links that may help you:

Sample brewpub business plan:

http://www.abtonline.com/busplan.html


Equipment manufacturers:

http://www.jvnw.com/brewing.html

http://www.specific.net/index1.htm

http://www.dciinc.com/food.html



http://www.muel.com/productDivisions/ProcessingSystems_Equipment/Beverage/Beer/

http://www.nabrewing.com/default.asp
 
ohiobrewtus said:
Licenses can get damn expensive.
Click to expand...

Tell me about it...here in PA, the number of licenses is fixed...you can't just apply for a "new" license, you have to acquire an existing one. You can imagine what that does to the price...six figures in some cases, depending on location and type of license. People will buy whole businesses just to get the liquor license, and there are private companies taht exist solely to help people buy and sell them. Crazy!

The other big cost item you need to consider: liability insurance. Depending on state laws, you might be required to have it, and it will not be cheap.
 
Hey here is my $.02

First start large and think small. By that I mean, if you want to start making 3bbl at a time is great, you should get a 7bbl system. You can always do smaller batches in a larger system. If your beer is popular, you NEVER want to run out. Most brewpubs in the country are 7-15bbl systems. And like everyone on http://www.probrewer.com likes to say, "it takes the same amout of time to make 500 gallons as it does to make 5." It just make take a bit longer to clean up! Probrewer is a GREAT source of information. Do like I did two years ago and sit down for one or two weekends and read over everything. Pretty much all your questions will be answered and more will arise!

Also get your hands on "Brewer's Association's guide to Starting your own Brewery" It has a lot of great information, albeit it is expensive $50.

http://www.amazon.com/Brewers-Associations-Guide-Starting-Brewery/dp/0937381896/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-4801715-2715024?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183653416&sr=8-1


You really want to keep checking out

http://www.nabrewing.com/products.shtml


They have great deals on used equipment. All sizes.

hope this helps,

John
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Bike N Brew said:
Tell me about it...here in PA, the number of licenses is fixed...you can't just apply for a "new" license, you have to acquire an existing one. You can imagine what that does to the price...six figures in some cases, depending on location and type of license. People will buy whole businesses just to get the liquor license, and there are private companies taht exist solely to help people buy and sell them. Crazy!

The other big cost item you need to consider: liability insurance. Depending on state laws, you might be required to have it, and it will not be cheap.
Click to expand...

It's similar here in Ohio. The licenses that are available in each county are based upon the population of each township in the county. the county that I live in has been allocated one A1 (brewing) license that is still unclaimed. The city I live in has seen quite a bit of growth over the last few years, but the population of the township has to increase by 1,600 people for a new C3 (beer/wine) license to become available (per license). I looked it up on the state liquor control website and there's something like 8-10 places waiting on liquor licenses to open new restaurants, etc.

One other thing that I would recommend (I believe that someone else mentioned this in a previous reply) is to keep the menu simple. Everyone has their own thoughts on this, but if you're shooting for world class dining you're going to have to need to have a chef or two on staff. I, personally, would want the focus to be on my beers, while at the same time providing good quality 'sportsbar' food - things like all the standard variery of appetizers, burgers, a few steak dinners, ruebens, philly sandwiches, wings, etc.

My local BW3 charges $6.50 for a 22oz draft of swill, $3.25 for a 12 oz bottle of swill, and $7.99 for a crappy burger (French Fries are a $1.99 add-on). With nothing else even resembling a brewpub for 40 miles, my town is ripe for the picking. If only I had a few hundred thousand dollars and I knew how to brew good beer I could make a ton of money by opening a brewpub. :drunk:
 
IMHO 60k isnt going to be enough. Spend a little bit of that money and hire a professional to write up a killer business plan for you. With 60k in the bank you can get yourself a nice chunk of change and do this right.
 
Chimone said:
IMHO 60k isnt going to be enough. Spend a little bit of that money and hire a professional to write up a killer business plan for you. With 60k in the bank you can get yourself a nice chunk of change and do this right.
Click to expand...

I'm on board w/Chimone here. I was going to suggest that you and your partner spend some time yourselves on a business plan. Specifically, 1, 3, and five year projections/goals. Incorporate all of the expenses you anticipate monthly, and projected sales revenues. When you get this all put together, you will see whether or not it is realistic to start with just $60k. You will also be better prepared to approach a bank lending officer for a loan, SBA or otherwise. If you have a potential location, etc., you will be able to accurately assess the cost of a lease, leasehold improvements, local licensing fees, electricity, security, water/sewer, heat/air cond., etc. etc. Don't forget to get some insurance quotes from several commercial agents!

I'll also go as far as to suggest that you involve and accountant and an attorney very early on, so you can structure the business in a way that is most beneficial -- LLC, S-corp, C-corp, etc.

Good luck, awesome endeavor! Many here are jealous!
 
Torchiest said:
Wow! I almost left this thread for dead a couple days ago. Glad to see so many people offering advice. To answer some questions and provide more information:

The place I bartend and manage at has been open for nine years, and I've been there since it opened. It was originally a brewpub/pizzeria, but the brewery was closed down after two years due to financial problems and disputes between some of the owners. The restaurant/pub has done amazingly well in the meantime. I've got tons of experience managing the place, although I'm not the GM. My friend has a finance degree and is the GM of a neighboring coffeeshop/winebar that also has a good beer selection, so I think between the two of us, we have the bases covered.

We're both at about the same place financially, and we think that in a year or so we could open a modest yet appealing place for about $60k without having to take any loans whatsoever, and with money to live on in the mean time.

Some legal stuff. In Texas, you can be either a brewery, and are not allowed to sell beer directly to customers, or be a brewpub, and are not allowed to distribute your beer. I don't know if you absolutely HAVE to have food if you're a brewpub; it seems like a lot of people make this assumption but I'm not sure. Another good friend of mine wants to open a BBQ delivery place, and I've considered asking him if he'd want to join up and run the food side for me. And my fiance's brother is lending me his copy of Kitchen Confidential! :D

Our concept would be a full liquor bar, basic wine, a good selection of bottled beers, and then just my brews on tap. I think if I were running 4-5 brews on a regular basis, and had a 3BBL system, I wouldn't have to brew all that much to keep up, at least not at first. But the place wouldn't be too big.

As for marketing, I already have a kickass (I think) concept for my beers with the World Domination theme. I also have a ton of beer drinking friends from working at this pub for almost a decade, and a mailing list that I use to send out newsletters about the latest beers I'm brewing and such.

Oh yes, Seabrook is about 20 miles southeast of Houston down I-45, near NASA's Johnson Space Center.

Thanks again to everyone for all the position remarks and helpful comments!
Click to expand...

I don't have anything to add (except jealousy!) but sounds good. I'm watching this thread intently! Are you hiring a mash-tun cleaner? I might need a job! :D
 

Similar threads

B
Basic Mead Recipe
Replies
3
Views
607
Austin Willoughby
A
Rackerman
For Sale Microbrewery for sale in Costa Rica
Replies
0
Views
516
Rackerman
Rackerman
F
So I would like to open a brewery...
Replies
23
Views
1K
madscientist451
madscientist451
Clint Yeastwood
Prose from the Pros
Replies
6
Views
442
DBhomebrew
DBhomebrew
J
Non-alcoholic homebrew - buzzed feeling?
Replies
7
Views
617
mashdar
mashdar

Latest posts

Back
Top