My IPAs are...meh.

My IPAs are…meh.

First, I want to thank everyone, I’m on my…10th (?)…AG batch, all from instructions gleaned from this site; you guys are fantastic. Now on to my dilemma…

My IPAs are unimpressive. The main one I’m working on is a Cigar City Jai Alai clone. My first three attempts resulted in something vaguely resembling Jai Alai, but were clearly “hot alcohol” tainted (I blame my lack of a proper starter size). But even in spite of the hot alcohol, it still lacked the hoppy-ness of Jai Alai (or any other IPA for that matter). It smelled somewhat hoppy, but that grapefruit-pine “kick in the teeth” taste just wasn’t there. Not bad beer, but nothing to compare with a typical west coast IPA/DIPA in the hop department.

(On a side note, I’ve also made a Pliny the Elder and Weyerbacher Double Simcoe clone, and while neither was “hot alcohol” tasting, they certainly lacked the hoppy taste/bitterness of the originals…but the aroma was nice.)

Mind you, I've made a Hefe, a Left Hand Milk Stout clone, a few fruit beers...all just fine, no problems, no off-tastes, good stuff. But the IPAs just aren't cutting it.

Now, clearly, by the hop schedule (see below), this beer has plenty of hops going on. Originally, I would simply dry hop in the primary after 2 weeks of fermentation. This last time, I actually transferred to a secondary after 4 weeks in the primary, and then dry hopped for 14 days (per the recipe). Better, but not what I’m shooting for. I’m using RO water with the recommended CACL and gypsum. I chill the boiled wort down to 70* in about 15 min. I pitch at 65*, and I have a chest freezer with a Johnson control for fermentation, actual wort fermentation temps are 62-65. The hops (pellet) just get tossed in “free”… no bags or anything.

How do I get the hop-bomb taste I’m shooting for, if I’m clearly using the “quantities” necessary? What procedure am I missing? Here’s the recipe (taken from the Brewing Network interview with Wayne Wambles from Cigar City):

Grain Bill
Canadian 2-row-15.25 lbs
Munich I-12.5oz
60L-12.5oz
Victory- 4oz

Hop Schedule

FWH
Ahtanum-.5oz
Columbus-.5oz

Bittering-60 min
Ahtanum-.657oz
Amarillo-1.115oz
Columbus-.66oz

Flavor-15 min
Cascade-.69oz
Centennial-.625oz
Columbus-.715oz

Aroma-6 min
Ahtanum-.69oz
Amarillo-.57oz
Cascade-.94oz

Dry
Simcoe-2-3oz

Yeast
Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley

Thanks in advance.

Try doing a hopstand? Never done it but you could try moving your 6 min additions to flameout / hop stand.. Maybe do a third at flameout, let it cool to ~160-170F and add the rest?

+1 for hop stands. My best flavor so far has been from a 45 min hop stand at 145* with about 1.5 oz of galaxy. There's a good thread somewhere on here about whirlpools and hopstands that has a lot of good info from a lot of peoples experiences.

EDIT: found it https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/how-get-best-hop-aroma-flameout-additions-213803/

At first I jump to the conclusion of water due to the maltier beers being good and the hoppier ones falling flat - but you say you use RO with salts. How much of each are you using? Someone with a bit more water experience should be able to confirm you are good on what you are doing there

I do a 30 minute hop stand and add gypsum to the boil. Gypsum Helios bring the hops out.

+1 on hop stand. I chill my wort to 170 and add 2 to 3 oz and let it sit for 30 min then continue to chill

I was going to guess something related to water chemistry, but I know next to nothing about it.

Water chem primer http://www.winning-homebrew.com/brewing-water.html

I appreciate all the replies everyone.
So, looks like everyone’s in agreement on the “hop stand”; I’ll be brewing again Friday and I’ll give it a shot. I don’t think my water is the issue, like I said it’s RO water with about 1 tsp of CaCl and gypsum per 5 gallons.
I’ve read about hop stands before, but people seemed to be divided on its effectiveness. Some swear that cooling as quickly as possible brings out the best in your hops, and then some swear by the hop stand. I mean, before I developed my rapid chilling method, the first few batches probably took about an hour to get down to temp. I’m assuming that’s not going to give the same effect as a hop stand, though…you’d need to maintain a constant temp between 150-170 I’m guessing. If the hop stand doesn’t do it, I guess it’s on to the French press and the hop-back.

electrobank said:

I appreciate all the replies everyone.
So, looks like everyone’s in agreement on the “hop stand”; I’ll be brewing again Friday and I’ll give it a shot. I don’t think my water is the issue, like I said it’s RO water with about 1 tsp of CaCl and gypsum per 5 gallons.
I’ve read about hop stands before, but people seemed to be divided on its effectiveness. Some swear that cooling as quickly as possible brings out the best in your hops, and then some swear by the hop stand. I mean, before I developed my rapid chilling method, the first few batches probably took about an hour to get down to temp. I’m assuming that’s not going to give the same effect as a hop stand, though…you’d need to maintain a constant temp between 150-170 I’m guessing. If the hop stand doesn’t do it, I guess it’s on to the French press and the hop-back.

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1 tsp of gypsum per five gallons of water, or per 5 gallon batch?

Yooper said:

1 tsp of gypsum per five gallons of water, or per 5 gallon batch?

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1 tsp per 5 gallons. I use two 5 gallon jugs of RO water, and I treat both beforehand.

Are you using any lactic acid or acidulated malt? Seen it suggested to lower the pH of the RO water. Don't know how that affects hop flavours

electrobank said:

My IPAs are…meh.
Yeast
Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley

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This

AnOldUR said:

This

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I missed the yeast strain!

Have you ever used WLP001, Wyeast 1056, or S05, or for an English strain something like Wyeast 1335? Those would make a big difference in the amount of hops flavor in the beer.

You need more gypsum than that. I used to have issues with hoppy beers too as our water is not that far off of RO but the SO4 really helps out.

As for the hot alcohol, make sure you pitch enough yeast and also O2.

AnOldUR said:

This

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Yooper said:

I missed the yeast strain!

Have you ever used WLP001, Wyeast 1056, or S05, or for an English strain something like Wyeast 1335? Those would make a big difference in the amount of hops flavor in the beer.

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oh really...

I never questioned the yeast, simply because they said it was their "house yeast" strain; I figured it was in my best interest to stay as close to the original recipe as possible for "cloning" purposes. But for the sake of hoppy IPAs, I didn't know that 1275 was lacking...

electrobank said:

oh really...

I never questioned the yeast, simply because they said it was their "house yeast" strain; I figured it was in my best interest to stay as close to the original recipe as possible for "cloning" purposes. But for the sake of hoppy IPAs, I didn't know that 1275 was lacking...

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It's not terrible, but it won't enhance hops at all.

From Wyeast's site:
YEAST STRAIN: 1275 | Thames Valley Ale™

This strain produces classic British bitters with a rich, complex flavor profile. The yeast has a light malt character, low fruitiness, low esters and is clean and well balanced.

Origin:
Flocculation: medium-low
Attenuation: 72-76%
Temperature Range: 62-72° F (16-22° C)
Alcohol Tolerance: approximately 10% ABV
Styles:
Brown Porter
Dry Stout
Düsseldorf Altbier
Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
Foreign Extra Stout
Northern English Brown Ale
Robust Porter
Special/Best/Premium Bitter
Standard/Ordinary Bitter


Not a terrible choice, but not a choice that would enhance hops. I think it was 1275 that gave me a "minerally" flavor so I don't use it anymore in anything. There are far better choices.

So, you're using 10 grams in 10 gallons of RO water for a 5 gallon batch. I'd consider using no cacl2, and going up to 3 teaspoons (15 grams) total in the brewing water. One of the things that some people like is some magnesium added to the hoppy beers (I don't) but it can give a certain flavor that you may found is lacking. So, say, 2 teaspoons of gypsum and make up the rest of the sulfate with some epsom salts. I don't know the exact amount that would be good, though- but someone in the brewing science forum could help with that.

I'd also use a "hops enhancing" yeast strain. I personally use WLP001 much of the time, and love it for enhancing hops flavor in my IPAs.

I agree with switching to WLP001 or Wyeast 1056.
Here is the water profile I use for a double IPA:
Calcium - 140 ppm
Magnesium - 18 ppm
Sodium - 25 ppm
Sulfate - 300 ppm
Chloride - 55 ppm
Bicarbonate - 110 ppm

This gives me a mash pH of 5.3

I too have suffered from blah IPA's. My fix has been to use the above yeasts, use the above water profile and hitting my mash pH and using a IBU to GU ratio of 2.5 - 2.9 to get that really in your face bitterness and hoppiness. I wouldn't bitter a double IPA with anything less than 3.5 oz of a high alpha bittering hop. I don't think you have enough hops. I know what they say in recipes but sometimes it just doesn't seem to translate to homebrew. I kept doing blah IPA's until I started using 12 - 16 oz of hops in a 5 gallon double IPA.

electrobank said:

I’ve read about hop stands before, but people seemed to be divided on its effectiveness. Some swear that cooling as quickly as possible brings out the best in your hops, and then some swear by the hop stand. I mean, before I developed my rapid chilling method, the first few batches probably took about an hour to get down to temp. I’m assuming that’s not going to give the same effect as a hop stand, though…you’d need to maintain a constant temp between 150-170 I’m guessing. If the hop stand doesn’t do it, I guess it’s on to the French press and the hop-back.

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Chilling wort as quickly as possible and hop stands are kinda based on the same idea. High temps volatize and "cook off" a lot of the delicate flavor and aroma components in hops. A hop stand just gives the hops a lot more time at lower temps to really soak into the wort.

So, I'm skimming over threads titles on HBT while taking my first sips of coffee. My blurry, early morning eyes see, IPAs are ... meth.

Yes they are!

I really appreciate all the ideas, guys. I'm brewing this again tomorrow, I'll check back in with the results in a few weeks and let you know how it turned out.

Necro’d by the OP!

So I’m back, and I’m nowhere closer to success with this than when I started. Since I posted this originally almost a year ago, I’ve been at it pretty regularly and my IPAs just taste terrible.

I’ve adjusted the salts as recommended; I’ve tried hop stands, changed yeast to WLP001, and all the other good advice, but to no avail. My original complaint was that my IPAs were “meh”, but the reality is, they’re practically undrinkable due to the off flavors. The beers (see recipe pg 1) have a very bitter taste, almost like all of the hops were added at 60 min in combination with high ferm temps and too little yeast/starter.

-I only boil for 60 min and chill it down to 70* in about 20 min (chiller/ice bath).
-I tried hop bursting to put all (most) of the additions up front (15-20 min) to see if that alleviated some of the bitter, but that only changed it to a sharper/tangier bitter.
-I’m pitching starters based on Mr. Malty (plenty big), I use about a minute of O2 in the wort, and I ferment in a chest freezer set at 62*.

Recently I tried the Stone IPA recipe from the BYO article thinking that maybe my original recipe had too many hops (the Stone recipe only has ~3oz hops in boil), but I get the same effect. In the meantime, I’ve successfully made an Imperial Pumpkin, a stout, a few hefes, etc., and they’re fine…it’s just these IPAs (ANY IPA…I’ve tried 4 different recipes, all the same off flavors). Guys at the LHBS say it has to be something with my hop utilization (they didn’t taste, just based on conversation).

Whatcha got?

weird man... I've brewed many ipa's and have never had this issue. They only time an IPA came out way bitter was when I missed the og by a lot on a Sculpin clone...

I always fwh and do a big hop stand and my ipa's always come out great. Before did this my IPA's were just ok. No resin flavor or sticky nose to the beer. They just had a nice bitterness to balance out the malt but they were still drinkable.

As for water, I just use spring water from the store with a little RO water to get some of the minerals and other additives in there. I don't add any salts or anything else. I try to use Irish moss at the end of the boil but I almost always forget to add it in. My beers are pretty much just water, grains, hops, 02 and yeast. No other additions of any kind.

So you're saying you're hitting your OG? Are you using muslin bags or do you just toss the hops in? Assuming kettle lid off too? Just grasping here... only a missed OG would really cause your issue out of these.

Reading through this thread, and seeing what you've tried already, at this point, what I would do is put the recipe in beersmith and scale it down to a 1 gallon batch and just keep trying it until you get it right. No use in brewing full batches to get something you don't want to drink. Beersmith has a free 30 day trial you can use if you don't already have it. Good luck man, I hope you nail it soon!

Agree w/ above. Instead of "experimenting" with custom recipes, do a solid kit which has known results like deadringer ale from NB (Bells two hearted clone). Also, if you haven't done it, why not just try double pitching some US-05 just in case there may be an issue with the starters? Are u washing/re-using the yeast? Make it easy and mash at a solid 150-152. Mashing lower will yield a drier beer and possibly add to your taste dislike you are getting. Sorry if any if this is redundant from previous replies a year ago hahaha. And def agree on the 1 gal batches (NB has a bunch of 1 gal kits), don't double pitch if u do that though (obviously...).

I've had a batch of IPA come out way too bitter. I goofed up my gypsum addition. You doing any water chemistry? I went back to basics on that and my brew has improved a lot.

My suggestion is for the next batch or two don't bother with the RO water and instead use regular spring water from the store. Just use the water straight up without any mineral additions, and see how your IPAs turn out then. That way you can see if the water is the main culprit or if it is something else.

What are you mashing at?
I mash my IIPAs at 143.
A friend who brewed same recipe as mine mashed at 156.
They were 2 totally different beers. Mine had over the top hops, his was kind of like what you describe, a weird and bitter off taste, almost like an aged hop.

How is your sanitization? In my opinion, and I'm talking from experience this is the most overlooked subject.
Your beer may be infected and you don't know it.
My IPA's and lighter beers were getting worse and worse over a period of 6 months (Darker beers are more disguising) even though I was varying everything from PH, minerals, hops schedules etc.
They were all coming out bitter, flavourless but nontheless drinkable which left me scratching my head.
I thought my sanitization routine was spot on but I eventuelly realised that I wasn't cleaning my bottles out vigourously enough. Just rinsing them after use and dipping them in Starsan wasn't enough in my case.

My theory is that I originally had some yeast sediment left in the bottles that became wild but only slightly infected the batch I was bottling at the time (Bottling wand spreading it to every bottle). However then with consecutive brews and bottling It's likely that I was harvesting this wild yeast making it more and more aggressive until my brews started becoming overly bitter to the point that they were becoming undrinkable which alerted me to something being very wrong.
The word 'infection' is quite strong so people including myself associate it with really horrible egg smells/tastes and funny gunky looking beer but it doesn't have to be the case.
It's not always too obvious that the beer's infected so your equipment might be harbouring something that takes a long time to become apparent.

Are your beers ok initially but get worse and thinner as the weeks pass?
You mentioned hot alcohol flavours.
Are they overcarbing too, even though it may take long for them to overcarb?
Check your FG and if it's lowered since you bottled/kegged and keeps lowering you may have found the culprit.

I think you have explored most of the initial suggestions that I would have had.
One thing that I do with a lot of success in essentially 100% of my hop-driven beers (and many not!) is first work hopping. It creates what is described as a 'nuanced' hop flavor, without the bracing bitterness. It seems a bit counter intuitive based on when you add them, but I have had great results with this method. About to keg a hoppy Saison that has no biol hops- just FWH and flameout.
This wouldn't be my very first suggestion, but based on what you have tried and the improvement it gave me, give it a go!

So you're saying you're hitting your OG? Are you using muslin bags or do you just toss the hops in? Assuming kettle lid off too? Just grasping here... only a missed OG would really cause your issue out of these.

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I do hit my OG, and no muslin bags, the hops just go in; lid off as well.

Instead of "experimenting" with custom recipes, do a solid kit which has known results like deadringer ale from NB (Bells two hearted clone). Also, if you haven't done it, why not just try double pitching some US-05 just in case there may be an issue with the starters?

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Funny you mention this, I recently thought about maybe going the kit route "just to see". In addition, I was thinking of pitching multiple packs of yeast and skipping the starter to see if it was suspect. Adding this to the list of new moves. I do wash yeast, but I've had the same issue with new packs as well. Also, my mash temp is generally 153*.

You doing any water chemistry? I went back to basics on that and my brew has improved a lot.

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for the next batch or two don't bother with the RO water and instead use regular spring water from the store

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For my last 3 batches, I ditched the gypsum altogether and just used straight RO (not ideal, I know). I tried straight Zephyrhills once and it made no difference, but I may revisit that. The Glacier machine is on my list of suspects, wondering if it's really dispensing non-chlorinated RO.

What are you mashing at?
I mash my IIPAs at 143.

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Under 150 seems low, especially 143. Most recipes I see are all ~150-155. I'll check this out, though. I changed my (batch) sparge water temp to 170* because I thought 190* may have been extracting tannins, but no change there.

How is your sanitization? Your beer may be infected and you don't know it. You mentioned hot alcohol flavours.
Are they overcarbing too, even though it may take long for them to overcarb?

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^This. You may be on to something here. However, my beer tastes "off" before it ever goes in the bottles; it doesn't get better, it doesn't get worse. So I'm not necessarily blaming the bottles as the source of infection. And they do overcarb, all of them (I suspected spices acting as nucleation sites, but my IPAs do it as well sometimes). The beers are fine, and then about 2 month after bottling, they're all gushers. Also, I never make "light" or "amber" beers, they're all flavored in some way (stout/fruit/spice), so if there was a subtle infection tainting their taste, I may not be detecting it due to the strong flavors.

So if it's not in my bottles, I'd have to suspect the fermenter buckets/racking cane. I use bleach, then Star San...maybe I need to scrub them a bit more? And the bottles generally get a soak (oxy clean), then a rinse, and then a vinator of Star San before bottling...do they need a brush as well? They're completely clear, no cloud or film (certainly no gunk).

Good comments so far, thanks.

Ignore the ibus on anything over 7% and go with at least 2 oz of high aa hop. I stay away from hops specifically designed for bittering. Use something or a combination of something you might use late in the boil like chinook Columbus or simcoe. It won't be too bitter.

A nice ballpark is another 5oz finishing hops with at least half of those at flameout. Immediately chill to 170ish and let your wort stand at least 10minutes before continuing to chill.

Yeast can be important. Cali ale won't disappoint.

And the absolute most important thing. Keg hop. 2 or more ounces. It's made the biggest impact on my IPAs. I just couldn't get what I was looking for when bottling. Kegging changed the game for my IPAs. Keeps your IPA fresh bright and hoppy. It also allows you to get your beer chilled for maximum freshness as soon as fermentation is complete.

As an alternative, bottle condition with a couple whole cones in the bottle in addition to a dry hop. I've had pretty good success w this.

electrobank said:

^This. You may be on to something here. However, my beer tastes "off" before it ever goes in the bottles; it doesn't get better, it doesn't get worse. So I'm not necessarily blaming the bottles as the source of infection. And they do overcarb, all of them (I suspected spices acting as nucleation sites, but my IPAs do it as well sometimes). The beers are fine, and then about 2 month after bottling, they're all gushers. Also, I never make "light" or "amber" beers, they're all flavored in some way (stout/fruit/spice), so if there was a subtle infection tainting their taste, I may not be detecting it due to the strong flavors.

So if it's not in my bottles, I'd have to suspect the fermenter buckets/racking cane. I use bleach, then Star San...maybe I need to scrub them a bit more? And the bottles generally get a soak (oxy clean), then a rinse, and then a vinator of Star San before bottling...do they need a brush as well? They're completely clear, no cloud or film (certainly no gunk).

Good comments so far, thanks.

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After reading this thread this is almost certainly your problem. I've never had an infected batch... Just a bottle here or there and it's very much what you're describing. Don't try to clean anything... Just replace your bucket siphon and tubing. Should be cheaper than a kit and you're guaranteed to knock out the problem

If u get gushers after 1-2 mths in a bottle then u definitely have a infection issue going. I have Belgian tripel in bottle for a year now and acts no different when opened now vs 10 mths ago. Is a slow developing infection the cause for your taste issues? Idk. BUT if I was in your shoes I would use this a the perfect excuse to move to kegging!!! Hahaha. Seriously, do the deadringer kit, use US-05 double pitched (NO STARTER), and use either tap water or spring water and see what happens!

Pushers on every batch, every bottle is nearly certainly an infection. Once poured is the head made of visible clear bubbles and quickly dissipating? Does the beer have a sharp tang to it? Are you fermenting in buckets, and if so how old are they? Kyle

Once poured is the head made of visible clear bubbles and quickly dissipating? Does the beer have a sharp tang to it? Are you fermenting in buckets, and if so how old are they?

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1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Buckets are just over a year old

I'm with you guys on infection being the culprit. I had a "full blown" pellicle infection maybe 2 months ago (first one ever), and it was due to me trying to harvest yeast from cans for a starter (absolutely pitched an infected starter). I currently have a wild yeast pellicle happening in a wheat beer, and it started before I ever pitched (spontaneous fermentation). This points to the bucket, because when the boil is finished, I put the kettle in an ice bath and work the copper chiller for about 20 min, then it gets poured in the bucket and sealed with a non-grommeted lid, so in theory it should be airtight and nothing should have been able to get in.

So here's what I'm thinking: the beer tastes bad before it ever goes in the bottles, so the problem has to either be the fermenters or the starter; I could believe both. Reading this thread (and others) leads me to believe that replacing plastic isn't necessary, and that I can simply bleach bomb. While buckets aren't that expensive, I'd have to buy 3, and another siphon, so I'm gonna be out ~$50. If I can bleach them and do a bit more scrubbing, I'd rather not go spend the money. The reality is, I could probably do a much better job cleaning these buckets.

Right now I'm considering the bleach bomb strategy, and moving to a 1 gal batch with my existing recipe, changing only the yeast to dry packs of 05. This will isolate whether the starter is to blame.

If I still have a problem, I'll do a 1 gal batch with my existing recipe but use a new fermeter bucket (isolates existing fermeter as the problem).

If I still have a problem, I'll do a 1 gal batch with a kit from NB (isolates recipe as the problem).

Why not just replace the buckets first? Because if I do, I'm still going to pitch 2 packs of dry yeast, so if the beer is a success, I won't know if it was the starter or the buckets, and I'll have to believe it was either or. Then in the future, whenever anything goes wrong again, I'll immediately blame the buckets and probably be buying new buckets bi-annually; that's not the life I want to live

Bleach should take care of it. Just rinse very well, dry and rinse again. Before you bleach get some PBw or oxy and clean with a sponge or rag. Anything else can create small scratches and harbor places for bacteria to live.

I'm three years in with many many brews and have yet to replace even tubing or a siphon. I'm careful, but not overly so. Hot water and a sponge is usually sufficient as long as i clean on brew or bottle day.

Lots of good ideas here.
I think you really need to go back to the beginning. Brew a known recipe / kit. If you are using extract, make sure that it's as fresh as can be. If you brew all-grain, make sure it's milled just before brewing, and that it hasn't been sitting too long either.
I would maybe get a new pail; they're pretty cheap.
Go with straight spring water from the store (I normally use tap water with no issues, but YMMV)
Look at your mash temp, you hold temps, mashout, sparge and so forth.
Look at your hop additions.
Look at your yeast. Most will perform better if you do a starter; I do a quart starter a couple days before brew and have had good results.
fermentation temps and conditions (dark, stable etc)
packaging - are your bottles extra clean and sanitized, you priming sugar / drops on the mark.
Good luck.

My all grain biab sucked until I started step mashing. Get a good thermometer. 110f 135f 145f , 150f, mashout165. Iodine test and hydrometer/ refractometer a lot. squeeze the bag. 66f under 40minutes. Oxygenate your wort. .2 packs of hydrated dry . Hop bitter or FWH 1oz anything 1-3oz 20minutes. 4oz hopstand 160degrees F 20-30min. Swamp cooler. Ferment 3 weeks. Cold crash 3 days. Back to room temp 24 hrs dry hop 3 oz three days. Cold crash. Keg or botttle ASAP. Young fresh delicious. Buy the water in jugs to make sure it's not the stores filter.


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My IPA's were meh.... about 10 batches ago.
After I started using 100% RO, with Gypsum and CaCl additions, they are OK.

Adding more Hops, hop stand, etc. helped, but still just OK

Pitch (2) packs of rehydrated dry yeast, significantly better than OK !

Now:
I stopped cold crashing.
I used to primary for 2 weeks, not 3.
I Dry hop on day 5 or 6 and then bottle on day 14 or so.
Bottles (all of them) into the fridge on day 8 or 9, and start drinking on day 11.

My beers are more fresh in Aroma and flavor, than ever before.
Now I think my IPA's are Great !