Will a 5 gallon MLT be sufficient?

So I just started extract brewing but I already want to move to AG. I was talking to a friend that brews and uses a 5 gallon igloo MLT and said I should be on the lookout for one on Craigslist. I found one really cheap but after reading some threads here I am a little concerned it won't be big enough as I want to brew some big beers.

A lot of people here suggest that 5 gallon igloos are too small for high gravity 5 gallon batches, my friend has been saying that it works fine as long as you can deal with low efficiency. I didn't see anyone else really talk about using a lower efficiency in 5 gallon igloos to get higher gravity, everyone said you need a bigger MLT, so I thought I would ask: would it be worth the extra money for a new 10 gallon or would a second hand 5 gallon work?

Thanks

At 1.25 qts/pound, a five-gal can hold, maybe 12 pounds of grain (more if you do 1 qt/ pound.). That's enough if you plan on doing 6-ish ABV beers. Anything higher gravity, and you'll need a bigger MLT.

I use a 5-gal, but that's only because I do small batches. When I get the 5-gal batch setup, I'll def get a 10 gal cooler.

I started off six months ago with a ten gallon and am baffled at how I could possibly make do with half the space. Even with some overhead in there it gives me the wiggle room if I need to adjust temps.

Wait it out. No matter how cheap it is I would say it's money you'll eventually consider a loss as you will want to go to ten gallons.

Think of it this way; low efficiency means wasted grains. In a short span of time what you've paid for grains that were wasted due to low efficiency will make up the difference between a five and ten gallon cooler.

BTW...I don't do all crazy high-gravity beers. I've done some small, some big and all have been great in it.

When I switched over I went for the 10 gallon right away. Even with an average 1.040-1.060 beer I'm usually starting with 4 gallons of water, add grain and it's almost up to the 6 gallon mark. My feeling was it gives you more flexibility and you know you'll eventually want to do a RIS or barleywine. I got mine on sale at Home Depot 10-Gallon Water Cooler Orange Jug-FG1610HDORAN at The Home Depot

That's kind of what i was thinking, if it costs, let's say a dollar, more per batch in grain it won't take long for the 10 gallon to pay for itself considering they can be ordered from walmart or target for like $40 but my friend insists it isn't necessary. I also feel like low efficiency like that would make it harder to brew consistently but I'm still pretty new to this so I am not sure.

I've used my 5 gallon cooler for 5 years, on 5 gallon batches and have never had a problem. At 1.25 it actually holds nearly 13 pounds of grain. Since most of my grainbills run between 10 and 14 pounds, I have no problem. for 14 pounds I just use about a 1.15 quarts/pound mash dillution. Or for 15pounds I go with a 1 quart/gallon.

14 pounds of 2-row in a 5 gallon batch gives you a 1.076 OG so it's not a small beer.

I rarely need a larger mash tun. If I'm making a bigger beer I'm often doing a 2.5 gallon batch instead of a 5 gallon one and those 14 pounds would then make a beer with an og of 1.151..... If I do want to make a 5 gallon batch of a big beer, or a larger than 5 gallon batch, I have a TON of homebrewing buddies, with all sorts of systems and sizes of mash tuns, and they'd let me use their geer. and if it's a barleywine or something like that, we're all brewing together then anyway, or hanging out.

I really don't have the space for a 10 gallon cooler, and like I said, in 5 years of using my 5 I've never had the need to go with a bigger one for more than a 1 shot deal. I maybe brew 1 huge beer a year anyway.

Other folks have other opinions, but in truth, you can make a lot of beer in a 5 gallon cooler.

If you wanna be realistic and practical and it not just be about the biggest toys, you need to ask yourself a couple of questions.

1) Am I ever going to brew larger than 5 gallon batches?
2) Are the majority if not all of my batches going to have an og higher than 1.076 (14 pounds of grain?)
3) Do I have the money or the storage space for a larger one?

It really comes down to those questions. In my case all three of those were no.

You could also add a fourth question- If I need to brew bigger once in awhile can I lay my hands on a bigger cooler. My Answer to that was yes.

So to me, a larger cooler was overkill, in light of living in a loft and not having much storage, nor having a realistic need for a larger one.

Skarekrough said:

I
Think of it this way; low efficiency means wasted grains. In a short span of time what you've paid for grains that were wasted due to low efficiency will make up the difference between a five and ten gallon cooler.

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What low efficiency? I'm getting over 80% with my little 5 gallon cooler......Now that I have a barley crusher it may even be higher. But since day 1 I got between 75 and 80%.

It ain't the size of your cooler, it's your grain crush and how it works with your braid or false bottom that determines your efficiency......

There is no reason to use a 5g igloo. A 10G is pretty much required for a 5G batch. The difference in price is about $25, which is cheaper than buying twice. Get the 10G.

Revvy said:

I've used my 5 gallon cooler for 5 years, on 5 gallon batches and have never had a problem. At 1.25 it actually holds nearly 13 pounds of grain. Since most of my grainbills run between 10 and 14 pounds, I have no problem. for 14 pounds I just use about a 1.15 quarts/pound mash dillution. Or for 15pounds I go with a 1 quart/gallon.

14 pounds of 2-row in a 5 gallon batch gives you a 1.076 OG so it's not a small beer.

I rarely need a larger mash tun. If I'm making a bigger beer I'm often doing a 2.5 gallon batch instead of a 5 gallon one and those 14 pounds would then make a beer with an og of 1.151..... If I do want to make a 5 gallon batch of a big beer, or a larger than 5 gallon batch, I have a TON of homebrewing buddies, with all sorts of systems and sizes of mash tuns, and they'd let me use their geer. and if it's a barleywine or something like that, we're all brewing together then anyway, or hanging out.

I really don't have the space for a 10 gallon cooler, and like I said, in 5 years of using my 5 I've never had the need to go with a bigger one for more than a 1 shot deal. I maybe brew 1 huge beer a year anyway.

Other folks have other opinions, but in truth, you can make a lot of beer in a 5 gallon cooler.

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Sure...and if you were hell-bent on it you could probably make beer with a coffee mug and a zippo. That doesn't make the process any easier.

I understand the situation that you're lacking space for a ten gallon cooler. And that's a perfectly valid reason.

However the OP is inclined to go smaller for the sake of saving some cash, which is something that is going to come out in the wash over a VERY short span of time with low efficiency. A larger cooler is going to give him more room for temp adjustment, something that we all find ourselves fretting over as we get started with AG and even as we progress. Less frustration and more chance of great success is what will make an enthusiastic homebrewer!

You can make alot of beer in a five gallon. But when you're talking about efficiency you can make more in a ten! The process will also be more forgiving as well, especially for a newb.

pearlbeer said:

A 10G is pretty much required for a 5G batch.

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Not it's NOT required, it might be preferred but to tell someone it's required, is bad advice....I Just showed how it's not required.... If someone is only going to make beers below 1.076, and 5 gallon batches, then a 5 gallon is sufficient. Stating an opinion is one thing, but saying something like that is not a fact....and shouldn't be posed as one to a beginner.

Skarekrough said:

However the OP is inclined to go smaller for the sake of saving some cash, which is something that is going to come out in the wash over a VERY short span of time with low efficiency. A larger cooler is going to give him more room for temp adjustment, something that we all find ourselves fretting over as we get started with AG and even as we progress. Less frustration and more chance of great success is what will make an enthusiastic homebrewer!

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I have no issues with temp adjustment. I preheat my mash tun, and it's factored into beersmith, and I hit my temps, and Like I said I get over 80% efficiency with mine.

And I was a NEWB using my 5 gallon when I started, and I had great success, and didn't lose my enthusiasiam, so I don't see where that statement comes from.


So again that is pure opinion.....

Have you ever ACTUALLY used a 5 gallon or are you just blowing smoke?

Revvy said:

I have no issues with temp adjustment. I preheat my mash tun, and it's factored into beersmith, and I hit my temps, and Like I said I get over 80% efficiency with mine.

And I was a NEWB using my 5 gallon when I started, and I had great success, and didn't lose my enthusiasiam, so I don't see where that statement comes from.


So again that is pure opinion.....

Have you ever ACTUALLY used a 5 gallon or are you just blowing smoke?

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I haven't used a 5G cooler, mainly because the collective advice given by those on the forum was that for the sake of saving money with a 5G over a 10G it will come out in the wash with efficiency. It will also allow a newb brewer headroom for temp adjustment and mistakes. The stories were endless from folks that went with 5G cooler and then ended up moving up to a 10G.

Pre-heating the mash tun and using beersmith is just another step that someone new to AG is going to have to wrap their head around as well.

My opinion is based on experience. And my experience has lead me to the conclusion that for the sake of saving cash going with a 5G over a 10G isn't a good reason.

I know you get alot of respect around and I do agree that beer can certainly be made with a 5G cooler. But please step aside your ego and listen to reason.

The one thing that I will say is that my efficiency typically suffers brewing bigger beers like IPAs, going from about 75 to 67% (i don't have the exact numbers offhand). With that said, I typically will run with 16-17 pounds of grain to get where I want to be for my OG. Which, when trying to mash at about 1.25 qt/lb is too much for a 5 gallon tun to handle.

With that said, I outgrew my 5 gallon MLT with my first 5 gallon IPA and was forced to pick up a 10 gallon from HD.

I use a 5 gallon cooler and average 88% efficiency.

Revvy said:

Not it's NOT required, it might be preferred but to tell someone it's required, is bad advice....I Just showed how it's not required.... If someone is only going to make beers below 1.076, and 5 gallon batches, then a 5 gallon is sufficient. Stating an opinion is one thing, but saying something like that is not a fact....and shouldn't be posed as one to a beginner.

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That is why I said 'pretty much' required. Sure you can mash in a 5G for a 5G batch, but you are very limited. Especially if you are targeting 5G of finished beer, you will be looking for 5.5G to the fermenter and 6-6.5G to the kettle.

I trying to provide good advice here. It would be silly to try to use a 5G, when a 10G vessel is much, much better for the job...and flexable for future needs. Given the price difference, I think any suggestion of a 5G mash tun is bad advice.

Skarekrough said:

I haven't used a 5G cooler,.....

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Then this separates ACTUAL ADVICE or KOWLEDGE ABOUT USING A 5 GALLON COOLER from Opinion.

It's one thing to say that YOU prefer something but to start spouting BS about efficinency, heat issues and other things, IF YOU HAVEN"T ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED IT.

It's that simple.....

Plenty of people use them every day, with no issues like you are CLAIMING as fact.

Stick to the reasons you choose to use a 10 gallon, but don't pass a bunch of untrue crap, or "common opinion" off as information, or advice to a new brewer.

Most of the time the "common wisdom" tends to be crappy info, that many of us have already shot down.

There's something you need to realize, In homebrewing there are a ton of different ways to do things, there is rarely one true way. You can ask 10 different homebrewers the same question and you'll end up with 12 different and they all will be right. Don't piss on another way of doing things, just because you do it differently and don't throw a bunch of "pseudo-facts" out there to new brewers, if you don't have an practical knowledge of something. Because you're gonna find for everything you've "heard" about something, you're going to have a bunch more brewers who have had different experiences with the same thing.

Donosaurus, you are ultimately going to have to make up your own mind about these things. You have enough information and opinions to see there are many ways of doing things. And yes a 5 gallon cooler can and does work for many folks.

FWIW, you can get a 10 gal cube for the price of a 5 gal round cooler.

Well I originally bought a 5 gallon cooler that I used maybe 3 or 4 times before it began collecting dust. I agree with pearlbeer that, with the price differential, you get more bang for your buck with a 10 gallon or larger cooler.

I prefer thinnner mashes, occasionally brew high gravity beers (that I still want 5 gallons of), and even have the capacity now to do 10 gallon batches.

And I don't know if they make them anymore, but my 12 gallon Igloo IceCube cooler was $10 cheaper than my 5 gallon round Igloo cooler. And, the IceCube can double as a swamp cooler, which the 5 gallon round coolers cannot.

Revvy said:

Then this separates ACTUAL ADVICE or KOWLEDGE ABOUT USING A 5 GALLON COOLER from Opinion.

It's one thing to say that YOU prefer something but to start spouting BS about efficinency, heat issues and other things, IF YOU HAVEN"T ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED IT.

It's that simple.....

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Yeah, I haven't taken a bullet in the kneecap either but I'm pretty sure I can come to the conclusion that it hurts like hell and it's not something I want to have happen to me.

Plenty of people use them every day, with no issues like you are CLAIMING as fact.

Stick to the reasons you choose to use a 10 gallon, but don't pass a bunch of untrue crap, or "common opinion" off as information, or advice to a new brewer.

Most of the time the "common wisdom" tends to be crappy info, that many of us have already shot down.

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Funny, most of my trusted "advice" came from posts on here, where you have figured yourself prominently.

There's something you need to realize, In homebrewing there are a ton of different ways to do things, there is rarely one true way.

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I can agree with that.

So why do you have such a hard-on for something you yourself admitted has limitations?

I'm tired of fighting about this. I don't see why you're being so belligerent about it. You noted the limitations already but still adamantly hammer away as if it's the one true option, something you yourself harped upon not existing. My point was that for the sake of a few bucks why not get something that will do the job and not have the limitations you yourself admitted.

Like I said, I'm tired of this. You've seemed like a pretty decent dude in the past but unless Ignore lists are only for donating members then I'll be damned if I'll give the place a single dime if this is what I can expect interacting with "respected" members of the forum.

Thanks for the replies. I think I will get a 10 gallon from home depot when I prepare to switch. I already understand that I will probably need a second kettle for AG, would you suggest a cooler for a HLT as well? Does it need to be as big as the MLT or can it be smaller?

Look around sporting goods stores, Target, Wal-Mart for some better deals. Those round coolers at HD are expensive and, IMO, there are cheaper options elsewhere.

How big is your kettle now? For 5 gallon AG, you'll want at least something 7+ gallons (add some Fermcap to avoid boilovers and you'll be fine there).

I don't have a dedicated HLT. While I'm mashing, I'll heat up the sparge water in the kettle, run off into buckets, and then I can lauter the mash back into the kettle right on the flame so the boil starts quick. I then batch sparge by just pouring the water that's now in the buckets into the MLT.

It depends on your sparge water volume. I do normal gravity beers in a 10gal cube, and my typical sparge schedule is around 4 gallons. So I use a 7 gal pot, leaves some room for expansion in the future.

I learned how to brew all-grain using a 5g igloo cooler. I have never used anything with a higher capacity, and probably won't. One of the reasons I actually LOVE my 5g cooler is because I was forced to perfect my process from the first day. I see homebrewing not just as a hobby, but as a constant learning process. I had to learn, from EXPERIENCE, how to adjust my process and my methods so that I didn't have to adjust for temperature. I had to learn how to adjust my crush to improve my efficiency. With a hobby that involves so much personal control, why wouldn't you want a newcomer to LEARN the way you did?

Revvy is right, there are a dozen answers and none of them are wrong. To the OP - if you are confident that the bigger beers you brew will be the majority of them, then go for it - but don't labor under the false idea that a bigger cooler will help you with efficiency right off the bat, or that it will help you with efficiency at all - focus on the process, not the gear. If your big beers will be more of a rare thing (or if you aren't going to need 5g of them) then get the 5g and save yourself a few bucks - and maybe learn a bit about your process through that experience.

Skarekrough said:

I don't see why you're being so belligerent about it.

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I'm not being beligerant about anything. You are claiming these so called "Facts" about efficiency and heat issues as if they were gospel. Several people besides me have said they haven't had efficiency issues. One person even said he's getting 88% with his 5 gallon cooler.

You've admitted you have no experience with a 5 gallon cooler, yet you are so sure that efficiency is suffering....But how can you claim these things to be true when you've never used one?

That's what I'm calling you on.

I have a 8 gallon kettle currently. Based on "how to brew" I was under the impression reason I would need another kettle. The more I think about it I feel it wouldn't be necessary with a HLT.

Can we not argue please? I understand people have differing opinions, thanks for sharing then. You both feel you are correct and want to defend your opinions but this is not the place for this argument.

modernlifeisANDY said:

Revvy is right, there are a dozen answers and none of them are wrong. To the OP - if you are confident that the bigger beers you brew will be the majority of them, then go for it - but don't labor under the false idea that a bigger cooler will help you with efficiency right off the bat, or that it will help you with efficiency at all - focus on the process, not the gear. If your big beers will be more of a rare thing (or if you aren't going to need 5g of them) then get the 5g and save yourself a few bucks - and maybe learn a bit about your process through that experience.

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It's not that the 5 gallon is less efficient. My understanding is that there is not sufficient volume in a 5 gallon to produce high OG without compensating by adding more grain and reducing efficiency (or reducing the batch size).

Donosaurus said:

It's not that the 5 gallon is less efficient. My understanding is that there is not sufficient volume in a 5 gallon to produce high OG without compensating by adding more grain and reducing efficiency (or reducing the batch size).

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What do you mean by "adding more grain and reducing efficiency"?

bja said:

What do you mean by "adding more grain and reducing efficiency"?

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With a given recipe if you increase the amount of grain and make the same volume of wort you should have a higher OG but your efficiency will be lower. The same could be accomplished by reducing the size of the wort and keeping the amount of grain constant. Is this not correct?

I think I'm gonna stick with my five-gal for a while.

To the op. I would definately go with the 10 gallon mlt. I own and have used both a 5 gallon and a 10 gallon mlt. I rarely if ever use my 5 gallon anymore. With the 5 gal tun I was always at the top of the tun when mashing and often was not able to do a mash out or just raise temp because of lack of space. This was average gravity beers too. The ten gal is just more versatile. Strangely with the bigger head space of a 10 gal tun you would think that holding temps would be an issue, but that has not been the case. I have had better temp control with the larger tun ( not sure why). Also I have had slightly better efficiency with the 10 gal, maybe the ability to do a mash out is the reason. This is just my experience and not fact but unless storage space is an issue I'd go with the 10 you will not be sorry.

So I can do high gravity in my 42 quart mast run and ten gallon turkey fryer?

I just built my all grain system but havnt brewed yet

Donosaurus said:

Thanks for the replies. I think I will get a 10 gallon from home depot when I prepare to switch. I already understand that I will probably need a second kettle for AG, would you suggest a cooler for a HLT as well? Does it need to be as big as the MLT or can it be smaller?

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I started out with a 5G AND a 10G Rubbermaid. I used the 5G as a HLT. ...and invented a cool fly sparing system. My system has since evolved...as yours will, but it is a pretty cool solution.

Shoal Creek Brewing: Fly Sparging - A new invention?

I just built my all grain system but havnt brewed yet

As Revvy has illustrated you can use a 5 gallon cooler with great results. That said I love my 10g cooler.

The one nice thing about the 5 Gallon ones, is with 11-12 lbs of grain and 3-4 gallons of water there is really no headspace, so you can hold temps a little better. For the most part all the beers I brew can be done in the 5 gallon. Heftier brew can still be done, just with smaller batch sizes.

pearlbeer said:

I started out with a 5G AND a 10G Rubbermaid. I used the 5G as a HLT. ...and invented a cool fly sparing system. My system has since evolved...as yours will, but it is a pretty cool solution.

Shoal Creek Brewing: Fly Sparging - A new invention?

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This is what I was thinking about doing. Not the flipping upside down and putting holes in the lid (great idea btw) but using a 5 gallon for the HLT. I just wasn't sure how big the HLT would need to be for 5 gallon batches with a 10 gallon MLT.

Donosaurus said:

With a given recipe if you increase the amount of grain and make the same volume of wort you should have a higher OG but your efficiency will be lower. The same could be accomplished by reducing the size of the wort and keeping the amount of grain constant. Is this not correct?

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If you do this, you end up with less beer.

Yes, but a higher gravity beer

Skarekrough should clean out the sand in his JJ. Anyway..

Donosaurus, I live in Milwaukee (West Allis) and frequent Northern Brewer weekly. I have a 12 gallon cooler and a 7.5 gallon turkey fryer kettle ( I batch sparge). You're more than welcome to participate in a brew session with me so you can see if a 12 gallon MLT would work for you. I got the 48 quart (12gal) cooler from sears for $20.


justin