Keggles vs Coolers question

Preparing to make the jump to all grain. Piecemealing gear together as I find it on Craigslist. My inital plan was to make the tried and true 2 10gal cooler (HLT/MT) with a 15gal keggle. Today I bought 3 stainless steel kegs and was thinking of the two routes I could go....

1) Convert all 3 into keggles with thermometers, keep one as my boil kettle and sell the other two to finance my cooler/hardware purchase. (my welding will be free... only thing that makes this a viable option)

2) Convert the 3 kegs into a false bottom mash tun, hot liquor tank and boil kettle with all the whizbang sight glass, valves and gadgets then use them to brew and forgo the coolers.

I plan on doing 5-10 gallon batches. A 3 tier gravity fed setup will be used, no pumps. I only have one Bayou Burner. I'm worried about the insulating properties of the bare or even wrapped keggles as I will not be directly firing the MT/HLT.

Thoughts?

Question: If you've only got 1 burner I'd assume it's on your BK which would be used for heating water and boiling. Are you planning on walking all that hot water up a ladder to your HLT at the top tear in a bucket? PLEASE GET A PUMP!!!

If your worried about heat loss, go with the coolers. Just know, you'll only be able to close the session ABV beers in 10 gallon batches and as big as you want mostly in 5 gallon batches.

rgauthier20420 said:

Question: If you've only got 1 burner I'd assume it's on your BK which would be used for heating water and boiling. Are you planning on walking all that hot water up a ladder to your HLT at the top tear in a bucket? PLEASE GET A PUMP!!!

If your worried about heat loss, go with the coolers. Just know, you'll only be able to close the session ABV beers in 10 gallon batches and as big as you want mostly in 5 gallon batches.

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Yea I'm a burley water carrying beast! I wasn't planning on making the height excessive for the HLT.... is it advantageous to be super high? I get the whole 9.8 m/s thing.... but faster water from your liquor tank is better?

10 gal session beers and 5 gal high gravity with coolers, got it.

I love my 10 gallon cooler! But- (and this is a big but), it maxes out at about 23 pounds of grain. That means I can do a 10 gallon batch, up to only about 1.063.

For a 10 gallon batch of 1.063 OG or higher, I need to use my keg mashtun. Even with a false bottom in it, I can easily get 35 pounds of grain into that and get an OG of 1.095. I never make beers that big, at least not often, but I do use 23+ pounds routinely and like the extra space!

I still have my 10 gallon cooler MLT, to use on smaller batches if I want but the 15 gallon keg MLT is really better for 10 gallon batches.

You can do fairly high gravity with a cooler mash tun the same size as your batch size. I can get to about 1.070 for 5.5 gallon batches in a 5 gallon cooler (which actually holds about 5.5 gallon). But that means mashing at about 1.0 qt/lb, which is only ok for some styles.

Yooper said:

I love my 10 gallon cooler! But- (and this is a big but), it maxes out at about 23 pounds of grain. That means I can do a 10 gallon batch, up to only about 1.063.

I still have my 10 gallon cooler MLT, to use on smaller batches if I want but the 15 gallon keg MLT is really better for 10 gallon batches.

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+1 I will agree with Yooper here.

I built a 5 gallon round MT for low gravity and Partial Mash beers and a 52 quart (13 gallon) rectangle for larger beers. I think the 5 gallon will max out at 9lbs with the strike water being right to the lid. I have yet to max out the 52 quart, but think that I can get 28/29 lbs of grain and strike water into it.

Ok well this is definitely a concern of mine as most beers that I make (and enjoy) are skewed on the heavier OG end.

I have no issues sticking with the 3 keggles plan... but no one has addressed my main concern of heat loss during mash. Is it possible to wrap/insulate those keggles well enough that your not constantly fighting a battle to keep a stable temperature?

Getting a second burner would be cheaper than 2 igloo coolers for sure (although no sale of the keggles) so that's a viable option as well. A burner under the HLT and BK while still in some sort of vertical orientation.... hmmm.

It's a bit more involved but you could incorporate a RIMS in the MLT to solve the insulation worries. I made mine from 1.5" SS pipe and fittings....it would require a pump. Mine is actually part of a bottom draining 10gal Cooler MLT with a 2qt grant.

helibrewer said:

It's a bit more involved but you could incorporate a RIMS in the MLT to solve the insulation worries. I made mine from 1.5" SS pipe and fittings....it would require a pump. Mine is actually part of a bottom draining 10gal Cooler MLT with a 2qt grant.

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While I understand the acronyms, I can't envision it and really not sure how it would help the heat bleedoff... have pix?

I use a keggle for a mashtun that is wrapped in ductwork insulation and a keg koosie and it does not lose any temperature during the mash hour. I preheat the mashtun with hot water and then dump it and start the mash process. Works great and cleans up great. I use a false bottom made for it.

I don't have any with me here but it is basically a SS pipe (RIMS) with a water heater element (1650W, 120V) controlled by a PID. The MLT gravity drains into the grant, the pump circulates from the grant, through the RIMS tube and back into the MLT. The RIMS tube element keeps the wort at a precise temp since it is continuously circulating through it.

The thinsulate padding used by backpackers for their sleeping bags is a great way to insulate your SS keggle if you choose the passive route. A pre-heated, well insulated keggle is almost as good as a cooler...maybe better if you plan on doing larger beers since the more liquid in the MLT the better. The more thermal mass (larger volume), the slower the heat loss.

I use a keggle as a boil kettle, a 70qt cooler as an mlt and a 10g cooler as a hlt. I can mash something like 45 lbs if I wanted to and its a lot easier to clean the wide cooler. When I do 5 gallon batches I just place a piece of foam insulation in the cooler above the mash. I had a 10g mlt but like Yooper said, I eventually outgrew it.

Ah ok now I get it.

Yes passive is what I'm after, at least until my next upgrade when I go fully electric but that's quite a bit down the road.

So some type of thermal wrap coupled with preheating the mash tun (something I didn't even think of, thanks guys) should get me the stability i'm after, huh? I kinda like the ability to crank out 10 gallons of whatever I want with some sloshing around room to spare.

For the preheating can you be more specific on your processes?

I have a three-tier gravity fed system that uses three sankey kettles. I do not heat my MLT. In the winter (sub freezing outdoor temps) I wrap the MLT in a moving blanket secured with a ratchet strap and don't lose more than a degree during my hour mash. For several brew days this summer I did not even wrap the MLT and lost a negligible amount. (90+ *F).

I would not recommend using a tier with sankey kettles without a second burner (or a pump, but then why have tiers). The kettles are almost are almost 30 lbs each and then you add 50-100lbs of hot water and you are asking for burns.

i have the 10 gallon coolers and love them but if you are planning on doing mostly 10 gallon batches then they may not be the way to go if want big beers. if you are going to do primarily 5 gallon batches the 10 gallon coolers will work great. do you keg or bottle? don't forget 10 gallon batches take more kegs and more bottles sounds obvious but if you like to brew and only have 2 kegs then you are screwed if you want to brew again until the beer is gone.

there are tons of products out there to insulate the kegs with and i'm sure they will all do the trick. i would highly recommend the use of the flexible foam/rubber insulation that is usually black. i think it is commonly called anti-sweat lagging and its waterproof and holds heat very well. i would steer clear of any fiberglass or anything like thatthat could end up in the beer.

as far as the pre-heating goes you have to do that with coolers or kegs. i heat my strike water a degree or two high then put it in the cooler and put the lid on for a few minutes. it will heat up the cooler and you strike temp will drop right where it needs to be. after you use your system a few times you will figure out how many degrees the cooler will suck up. i would bet money the kegs lose a lot more heat during the pre heat.

hope this helps

sorry almost forgot to mention...... get a pump!!! if you do 10 gallon batches it will be money very well spent unless you just like burning yourself and swearing a lot

RoundKid said:

I have a three-tier gravity fed system that uses three sankey kettles. I do not heat my MLT. In the winter (sub freezing outdoor temps) I wrap the MLT in a moving blanket secured with a ratchet strap and don't lose more than a degree during my hour mash. For several brew days this summer I did not even wrap the MLT and lost a negligible amount. (90+ *F).

I would not recommend using a tier with sankey kettles without a second burner (or a pump, but then why have tiers). The kettles are almost are almost 30 lbs each and then you add 50-100lbs of hot water and you are asking for burns.

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Ok I'm sold. Follow up questions...

1) Is any height offset enough or is there a specific amount to make all the transfers jive? In the Northern Brewer AG video those dudes have about 4' of elevation in their entire system.... most other garage systems seem to be significantly higher.

2) Preferred model/vendor for false bottoms?

3) Sight glass, thermometer and single ball valve on HLT and BK then false bottom, valve and thermometer on MT?..... or should I save my money and buy a high end temp probe in liu of installing a bunch of stuff to the keggles?

Use a down jacket from good will or old sleeping bag with a belt cheap easy fix. but if you have the kegs might as well keep them.

butterpants said:

Ok I'm sold. Follow up questions...

1) Is any height offset enough or is there a specific amount to make all the transfers jive? In the Northern Brewer AG video those dudes have about 4' of elevation in their entire system.... most other garage systems seem to be significantly higher.

2) Preferred model/vendor for false bottoms?

3) Sight glass, thermometer and single ball valve on HLT and BK then false bottom, valve and thermometer on MT?..... or should I save my money and buy a high end temp probe in liu of installing a bunch of stuff to the keggles?

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My thoughts:
1. If you don't have a pump, more height means faster/easier training. That's the only reason to go higher.
2. I love my Jaybird false bottom for my keg MLT. (He's a sponsor here on the forum, and he has a website.)
3. I don't have a sight glass or thermometer on my MLT or BK. You can add them, but they aren't needed for me. I have a good thermometer (a Thermapen) that is portable, and just check mash temps with it, and then use it to check my pitching temperature later on. I do have those on my HLT, though. I check boil volumes with a long handled spoon, where I etched on the gallon markings, up to 12.5 gallons. That's been good enough for me.

butterpants said:

Ok I'm sold. Follow up questions... 1) Is any height offset enough or is there a specific amount to make all the transfers jive? In the Northern Brewer AG video those dudes have about 4' of elevation in their entire system.... most other garage systems seem to be significantly higher. 2) Preferred model/vendor for false bottoms? 3) Sight glass, thermometer and single ball valve on HLT and BK then false bottom, valve and thermometer on MT?..... or should I save my money and buy a high end temp probe in liu of installing a bunch of stuff to the keggles?

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1. High enough to drain into the next vessel. Including from the boil kettle into the fermenter. Mine is a little taller than that in case I want to get bigger kettles someday.

2. Same as Yooper I have a false bottom from Jaybird at Norcal Homebrew Solutions.

3. I have a sightglass on my hot liquor tank and thermometers on all three vessels. If I was doing it again I would leave the thermometer off my brew kettle, you only need it if you're chilling in the kettle. Thermometer and sightglass on the hot liquor tank is most important because you don't want to climb up there to look in it. I use my mash paddle to measure volumes in the boil kettle just like Yooper.

butterpants,

I don't think you've commented oh the actual stand your going to be using. Are you building a 3 tier or sort of making one out of stuff around the house? If your building one, I'd HIGHLY suggest a second burner under your HLT. It would be a simple upgrade of a burner and a splitter for propane. If your doing a make shift 3 tier put together with other stuff, then I suggest a pump again. I've seen a thread on here for a smaller pump from China that has served them well...something like $30 bucks....that can be used simply for water transfer to the top tier. Maybe someone can post a link to it.

This is a great hobby and there's nothing better than drinking beer you've made yourself. But, not at the price of injury to yourself. Like you've posted, if you go all electric, you might not have a need for a 3 tier however it's built and a pump will serve you better for all purposes moving forward. It's getting late here, but if someone doesn't post about the smaller cheaper pumps that can serve this purpose perfectly I'll find the thread tomorrow and get it to you.

Everyone has already covered all of the other questions, so I thought I'd express this concern for safety again. Happy brewing!

Great ideas guys, thanks for them.

Yes the stand.... I'm not exactly sure just yet. As I said before, getting another burner could be in the budget.... where exactly to stuff it with a HLT on top, another story. I'd really rather not build some large wood framed 3 tiered monstrosity as my garage is already full of hobby stuff. I do have some shelving already in place that I could push together on brew days and have a solid 3 staggered tiers....

I'll have to play with the space once all the items are in play.

butterpants said:

Great ideas guys, thanks for them.

Yes the stand.... I'm not exactly sure just yet. As I said before, getting another burner could be in the budget.... where exactly to stuff it with a HLT on top, another story. I'd really rather not build some large wood framed 3 tiered monstrosity as my garage is already full of hobby stuff. I do have some shelving already in place that I could push together on brew days and have a solid 3 staggered tiers....

I'll have to play with the space once all the items are in play.

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OP, here's a pump that's cheap and food grade. Also with a 3M height rating, you won't have issues bringing the water all the way up to the top tier. If you went this route, you could heat your strike water in your BK and then transfer to the MLT. While mashing, you'll heat your sparge water than transfer to your HLT and then your golden.

Rather than a 3 tier, you can also do a 2 tier and move sparge water with a small bucket, or even a gallon pitcher. I built a 3 tier, then realized it was easier just to move some of the brewing water with a gallon pitcher. Even 10 gallon batches only need 5 gallons of sparge, not a big deal a gallon at a time scooping from one tank to another at the same level.

Don't forget if you get a pump there is no need to mess with multiple tiers and you don't need a second burner.

Do you plan to batch sparge or fly sparge?

I used to fly sparge but the last few batches I switched to batch and it has saved me tons of time with very little efficiency loss. The reason I ask is the main reason to have the HLT so high is only if you fly sparge. I use the pump to help me move all the fluids around and I never have to pick up a hot pot of anything. Just something to keep in mind.

The allure of a pump is growing....

Is the cheap pump a viable option? These suckers fairly easy to clean? I've never used one before so I have some reservations.

All I've ever done is fly sparge. I'd love to batch but again I have no experience with it.

The pumps are very easy to clean. Just run a short cycle or hot water, then pbw, and then hot water again. On brew day, I'll run starsan threw and I'm good to go. Never had issues yet.

My initial use for my pump was fly sparging also. 1 day I was having issues with keep it going at some a slow intake for the fly sprage so I just said screw it and batch sparged. Shaved about 45 minutes of my brew day and got the same efficiency and no other ill effects. Never looked back from there.

Can't speak to the cheaper pumps longevity though. Maybe someone else can chime in. I know I read that people had luck with the smaller brown ones though.

Edit: I thought I posted the link to the pump but it doesn't look like it's there. Here's the thread that talks all about it. There's also a couple other one's linked in the thread that are cheap and people have experience have commented.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/cheap-compact-wort-pump-375904/index2.html

While I'm at it.... are there any recommendations for welded fittings?

I've already got NorCal on my radar for the keggle false bottom (which size tho). Looks as if most of the stuff he sells is weldless. Bargain fittings is also a supporting member here right?

I was thinking...

HLT: Cut top, make lid, add 1 1/2" ball valve and sight glass, drill drain holes in bottom rim so it doesn't grenade.

MT: Cut top, make lid, add 1 1/2" ball valve, false bottom with dip tube, drill drain holes.

BK: Cut top, add 1 1/2" ball valve amd thermometer, drill drain holes.

I have a decent digital thermometer so it seems redundant and unnecessary to add them to all of the keggles. Put one on the boil kettle as I will be chilling in there and when sanitation is a concern, less stuff poked in there the better. Sight glass on the HLT because.... well i'm not totally sure I need it but if the system is tiered it will suck to check without it.... but yoopers suggestion of a calibrated stick sounds great for the boil kettle. BK.... does it need a pickup tube off the ball valve? Seems like the less restricted the better from a flow standpoint, right?

Sorry for all the questions, just getting prepared to order stuff

butterpants said:

While I'm at it.... are there any recommendations for welded fittings?

I've already got NorCal on my radar for the keggle false bottom (which size tho). Looks as if most of the stuff he sells is weldless. Bargain fittings is also a supporting member here right?

I was thinking...

HLT: Cut top, make lid, add 1 1/2" ball valve and sight glass, drill drain holes in bottom rim so it doesn't grenade.

MT: Cut top, make lid, add 1 1/2" ball valve, false bottom with dip tube, drill drain holes.

BK: Cut top, add 1 1/2" ball valve amd thermometer, drill drain holes.

I have a decent digital thermometer so it seems redundant and unnecessary to add them to all of the keggles. Put one on the boil kettle as I will be chilling in there and when sanitation is a concern, less stuff poked in there the better. Sight glass on the HLT because.... well i'm not totally sure I need it but if the system is tiered it will suck to check without it.... but yoopers suggestion of a calibrated stick sounds great for the boil kettle. BK.... does it need a pickup tube off the ball valve? Seems like the less restricted the better from a flow standpoint, right?

Sorry for all the questions, just getting prepared to order stuff

Click to expand...

Hay butterpants
I am happy to assist any way I can. If your going to be welding your system we also have a standard dip tube that you can order and not have to take any measurements if you weld the entire coupling on the outside of the kettle. You asked what size in you post and if your doing a MLT I suggest a 15" reversed hinge, handle and a level 1 stand. We have them on special for HBT members at the moment and you get a level 1 stand free. Hope that helps..

Good luck on your build

Cheers
Jay

Jaybird said:

Hay butterpants
I am happy to assist any way I can. If your going to be welding your system we also have a standard dip tube that you can order and not have to take any measurements if you weld the entire coupling on the outside of the kettle. You asked what size in you post and if your doing a MLT I suggest a 15" reversed hinge, handle and a level 1 stand. We have them on special for HBT members at the moment and you get a level 1 stand free. Hope that helps..

Good luck on your build

Cheers
Jay

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PM incoming

Thanks to everyone for participating in my menagerie of questions. Almost got it figured out....

Ok so I got with Jaybird and all my goodies are on order! Excited. Hook up with my welder buddy next week and the NorCal hardware should be here by then. Borrowed a chugger pump and bought a second burner as well (this hobby is still cheaper than competitive shooting and dirt bike racing so the wife has yet to destroy me!..... but I HAVE had to start sneaking stuff into the garage)

Question on workflow once it's all assembled...... So, I have a single pump and lots of high temp tubing with camlocks/easy off attachments. I also have 2 burners and at least 2 height tiers (3 would require a significant amount of work) to brew with. I would prefer to batch sparge. What would be the most elegant way to arrange and transfer wort between all 3? Is there a certain permutation to avoid?

butterpants said:

Ok so I got with Jaybird and all my goodies are on order! Excited. Hook up with my welder buddy next week and the NorCal hardware should be here by then. Borrowed a chugger pump and bought a second burner as well (this hobby is still cheaper than competitive shooting and dirt bike racing so the wife has yet to destroy me!..... but I HAVE had to start sneaking stuff into the garage) Question on workflow once it's all assembled...... So, I have a single pump and lots of high temp tubing with camlocks/easy off attachments. I also have 2 burners and at least 2 height tiers (3 would require a significant amount of work) to brew with. I would prefer to batch sparge. What would be the most elegant way to arrange and transfer wort between all 3? Is there a certain permutation to avoid?

Click to expand...

Put your mash tun on a table or chair and both burners on the ground. You can pump from the HLT up to the mash. You can pump from mash to kettle as well, but could also gravity drain.

With batch sparging you could also just have a single tier. You can pump from each vessel to the next without any issues.

I use two keggle a with one burner and no pumps without much difficulty. I cut up a 4x8 sheet of plywood for stands at the moment to utilize gravity, but want to go the pump route in the future. Best up my mash water in the HLT (about 170ish) and drain down to the mash tun. The extra temp is used to heat the mash tun walls and drop the thermal mass. Dough in and mash for given time, all while I put my sparge water into HLT and heat up while the mash finishes. Drain my first runnings into buckets and sparge. Then I dump the buckets into the HLT and use it as the boil kettle.

This is my soon to be set up. Now, mind you it's a picture from what will be the backside of the stand, but you'll get the picture:

From right to left, I will have the HLT on the right side, the MLT in the middle, and the BK on the bottom tier on the left side. All of my water from the BK as of now because I only have 1 burner. I heat my strike water and pump to the MLT for mashing. While mashing, I heat up the rest of the water a little which doesn't take long cause we're already at like 165 and then I transfer to the HLT for when I'm ready to sparge. When I'm done mashing, I drain into the BK which is done with gravity because it's simple. I then pump the sparge water into the MLT for batch sparging. I this is the easiest way to do batch sparge for me. You don't need your pump to run the wort from the MLT with this set up. It only takes a couple minutes to drain your runnings with gravity each time anyway. No need to pump it 30 seconds faster.

Duplicate Post....

Awesome guys, thanks for coming through for me! I need to do a dry run once all my **** is here and see which idea works better with my space

Ok, the NorCal goodies came in and I've welded/assembled it all......then I totally splurged bought a second burner and then a Chugger pump. Snuck it all in the garage and I have 0 buyers remorse (until I'm discovered of course!)

So....now I'm pondering the most efficient way to assemble all of this and if life would be easier if I welded in a few extra ball valves. I want to batch sparge and have no issues using the pump on the hot/cold side. Thinking single tier across, but I don't have a stand or anything elaborate yet.

Questions!:

1) If I added a welded coupler, ball valve and camlock attachment to both the mash tun and boil kettle up high, in line with the lower valve would it make life easier and be a good idea? I could just hook up and pump in sparge water then move the pump, rehookup and pump wort to the kettle from above instead of below.

2) What would be the best way to vorlauf/recirculate/clear? Pump from bottom of kettle to top with the ball valve mostly closed to restrain flow or would I have to let gravity and drain then pan it back at top of the grain bed by hand.

3) I wanted to batch sparge (for time reasons alone... I'll buy 5-10% more grain if efficiency suffers but saving an hour on brew day is priceless) and wasn't planning on buying a sparge arm. Just pumping the water on top, mixing and waiting. This feasible and correct for my equipment?

4) About how long are you guys with a movable system cutting your high temp silicone hose? Best place to buy online? LHBS is like 3.50/foot. Insane.


I included a rough diagram with no hose routing:


Hopefully Santa brings a plate chiller. Might take a while for my immersion chiller to get 10 gal down to pitch temp.

1) If I added a welded coupler, ball valve and camlock attachment to both the mash tun and boil kettle up high, in line with the lower valve would it make life easier and be a good idea? I could just hook up and pump in sparge water then move the pump, rehookup and pump wort to the kettle from above instead of below. You'd be fine doing this. You'll want to make sure begin very slowly before you kick your pump on full blast or you'll get a stuck sparge.

2) What would be the best way to vorlauf/recirculate/clear? Pump from bottom of kettle to top with the ball valve mostly closed to restrain flow or would I have to let gravity and drain then pan it back at top of the grain bed by hand. How about unhooking you hose, pulling off a couple liters through the valve and then putting your hose back on and then pumping? You'll need to pump slow at the beginning regardless though for the reason above.

3) I wanted to batch sparge (for time reasons alone... I'll buy 5-10% more grain if efficiency suffers but saving an hour on brew day is priceless) and wasn't planning on buying a sparge arm. Just pumping the water on top, mixing and waiting. This feasible and correct for my equipment? That's how I do it. I've got a valve at the top of my MLT that I pump the hot sparge water into then mix and drain. I don't vorlauf and end up with clear beer regardless. This way cuts another 20 minutes or so off my brew time.

4) About how long are you guys with a movable system cutting your high temp silicone hose? Best place to buy online? LHBS is like 3.50/foot. Insane. Search around. I'm sure you can beat that price.

I'm building a system with three kegs. it'll be awhile before I have all the parts together, due to cost. in the meantime I am using my primary fermenter as a mash tun. I'm kind of in the same situation as you. my plan is to get a 10 gallon cooler for smaller batches, while continuing to build my three keggle system. SS looks way cooler than a cooler.

It certainly has been an interesting evolution of what I thought I would buy to what is now sitting in my garage. That's the beauty of this forum and having a malleable mind. Ask for advice, if the advice is logical, reevaluate. I've done that many time in the last few weeks! The project as you can imagine has gone friken way over budget but after heeding some advice, not wanting to do stuff half-assed and have to rebuy later plus slyly convincing myself it's almost Christmas and I'm worth it....well here we are.

rgauthier20420 said:

1) You'd be fine doing this. You'll want to make sure begin very slowly before you kick your pump on full blast or you'll get a stuck sparge.

2) How about unhooking you hose, pulling off a couple liters through the valve and then putting your hose back on and then pumping? You'll need to pump slow at the beginning regardless though for the reason above.

3) That's how I do it. I've got a valve at the top of my MLT that I pump the hot sparge water into then mix and drain. I don't vorlauf and end up with clear beer regardless. This way cuts another 20 minutes or so off my brew time.

4) Search around. I'm sure you can beat that price.

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Thank you again.

Skip recirculating....I'll give it a try. When you say "slowly" for draining the mash, can you be more specific? And for how long must it be governed? Can I go faster if I use more rice hulls?