Darn BJCP!

So, I can't do an Oktoberfest becuase of a lack fo lagering facilities. So, I was going to do an Alt and drink it in October. The BJCP says that an Alt beer is also a lager!! WTF? Isn't this beer's name derived from the older style of brewing - i.e. ale brewing?

Anyway, does anyone have a suggestion for a German style ale (hopefully featuring some munich or cara-munich and some of this carafa malt I have)?

No, it's brewed in the old style...lagered in caves...

With a few exceptions, Germans make lagers...

Hmmm???

Read this (source):

Most beer styles are, in one way or another, connected to their past. Collectively, the roots are ancient; stylistically, more modern. Even today’s nouveau styles are based on traditional beers. Only two reference their antiquity in their name, the British old ale, and the German ale known as altbier. Altbier, meaning old beer, is so called because of the reverential grasp its brewers have maintained on Rhineland brewing traditions. Indigenous to Düsseldorf, altbiers are top-fermented, full of hops, and with a winsome copper color. Altbier, or simply alt, bridges the chasm between ales and lagers in a manner that flatters both.

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Additionally, it seems that Horst Dornbusch, author of a book about altbier (click here) considers altbier to be an ale.

I am not completely satisfied with the idea that an Altbier must be brewed as a lager.

I'm not sure what you are looking at on the BJCP but if by Alt you mean Düsseldorf Altbier (and I assume you do) then it is not a lager. It is an ale.

From the BJCP guide: The traditional style of beer from Düsseldorf. "Alt" refers to the "old" style of brewing (i.e. making top-fermented ales) that was common before lager brewing became popular.

EDIT: Ok, I see where the confusion may be.... Northern German Altbier is a Lager..... I assumed we were talking a Düsseldorf Altbier which is an ale.

Yep, that's it. I was looking at the Northern German Altbier. I will head back to the BJCP to find the Dusseldorf Alt. I can't get back to the links where I used to browse through the guidelines. The only thing that I can get to is that huge .pdf file that they recently put up.

Oh . . . and thanks!!

Dusseldorf Alt is like others said uses an ale yeast, but I did read as well that it is best when cold conditioned afterwards. Think for a month as well. I was going to make one and read that and decided to wait until winter when I can at least cold condition at about 50.

EDIT: Here's a NB recipe. This place doesn't mention cold conditioning but does talk duration and optimum temp http://www.northernbrewer.com/docs/kis-html/1063.html

I don't take the guidelines as meaning that No German Alt is lager. I take what they say as many brewers call their Brown lager an Alt, or passing it off as an Alt, at least that is my interpretation of the statement.
From the BJCP guidelines:
"Most Altbiers produced outside of Duesseldorf are of the Northern German style. Many are simply moderately bitter brown lagers"

Here is an Alt recipe I have.... I haven't brewed it yet but will eventually try this one out.....

Dusseldorf Alt

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

07-C Amber Hybrid Beer, Dusseldorfer Altbier

Min OG: 1.046 Max OG: 1.054
Min IBU: 35 Max IBU: 50
Min Clr: 13 Max Clr: 17 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 6.00 Wort Size (Gal): 6.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 12.38
Anticipated OG: 1.053 Plato: 13.07
Anticipated SRM: 13.0
Anticipated IBU: 38.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
60.6 7.50 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
16.2 2.00 lbs. Vienna Malt Germany 1.037 3
16.2 2.00 lbs. Munich Malt(light) America 1.033 8
6.1 0.75 lbs. CaraMunich Malt Belgium 1.033 75
1.0 0.13 lbs. Carafa Germany 1.030 400

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.66 oz. Horizon Pellet 13.60 36.3 60 min.
0.50 oz. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 2.30 2.4 30 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1007 German Ale


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 12.38
Water Qts: 16.09 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 4.02 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.30 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 148 Time: 60
Mash-out Rest Temp : 168 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 60


Total Mash Volume Gal: 5.01 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.



Notes
-----

Carafa is huskless - half of it ground in coffee grinder

Relax, Don't Worry, and brew my Oktoberfest Ale in my sig. Tasty!!!

You could try this: (from American Brewers Style guide)

Kellerbier (Cellar beer) or Zwickelbier
Unfiltered and often young, not fully lagered versions of Germanic lager styles of beer such as Münchner-Style Helles and
Dunkel, Dortmunder/European-Style Export, Bohemian-style Pilsener and German-style Pilsener. Kellerbier is noticeably less
carbonated and may be noticeably sweeter than it’s filtered, fully attenuated and lagered derivative. They will not be clear,
exhibiting a small amount of yeast haze in the appearance. Low to moderately low levels of yeast-generated sulfur compounds
will be apparent in aroma and flavor. Dry hopping is acceptable. Head retention may not be optimal. Low levels of
acetaldehyde may be apparent.
Original Gravity (ºPlato):
Varies with style
Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato):
Varies with style
Alcohol by Weight (Volume):
Varies with style
Bitterness (IBU): Varies with style
Color SRM (EBC): Varies with style

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From the same guide:

German-Style Brown Ale/Düsseldorf-Style Altbier
Copper to brown in color, this German ale may be highly hopped and intensely bitter (although the 25 to 35 IBU range is
more normal for the majority of Altbiers from Düsseldorf) and has a medium body and malty flavor. A variety of malts,
including wheat, may be used. Hop character may be medium to high in the flavor and aroma. The overall impression is clean,
crisp, and flavorful often with a dry finish. Fruity esters can be low to medium-low. No diacetyl or chill haze should be
perceived.
Page 15 of 35 1/13/06
Original Gravity (ºPlato):
1.044-1.048 (11-12 ºPlato)
Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato):
1.008-1.014 (2-3.5 ºPlato)
Alcohol by Weight (Volume):
3.6-4% (4.3-5%)
Bitterness (IBU): 25-48
Color SRM (EBC): 11-19 (22-38 EBC)

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