The Science of Ice

Yakima 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
cooldood

cooldood

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
609
Reaction score
131
Location
Belgrade
For the life of me I can not understand why so many people adamantly oppose using ice to cool wort. Coopers sells millions of extract kits and their instructions say heat the can.....yah de yah da pour water into primary to 23L I would think if there was a real risk of infection they would change their instructions. Some MidWest kits still have this in their instructions too. (The same water I make ice with)

We eat the ice every single day and I have never heard anyone say

"Did you boil that water before you made ice with it? Otherwise I am NOT taking the chance of getting sick"

Before all the hating starts let me say. I understand microbiology and know there are bugs everywhere but what is the real probability of infection?

There rant over :ban:
 
I think any concern with infection is with purchased ice. I've seen broken bags, and icky coolers full of bags of ice. Otherwise, if you can drink your water I don't see a problem.
 
Nothing wrong with it. Infact, if my icebox is full I always use ice.

I think the problem could be from
Store bought ice. It's probably fine, but I don't know the source or handling of the ice.
 
I do appliance repairs, including commercial ice makers. If you have seen the disgusting mess most of them are you might never get drinks with ice at a restaurant again. Many of them seldom get cleaned or sanitized, it's supposed to be done on a regular basis. When I get them open for repairs they are filled with mold and slime. Thanks, I'll have a beer. Ice from your fridge is better, but... have you looked in it to make sure? Some of them get fairly icky.
 
ButcherBoy said:
I do appliance repairs, including commercial ice makers. If you have seen the disgusting mess most of them are you might never get drinks with ice at a restaurant again. Many of them seldom get cleaned or sanitized, it's supposed to be done on a regular basis. When I get them open for repairs they are filled with mold and slime. Thanks, I'll have a beer. Ice from your fridge is better, but... have you looked in it to make sure? Some of them get fairly icky.
Click to expand...

When I worked in commercial maintenance I cleaned machines with nickel safe and couldn't believe the nasty crud growing in machines that were regularly cleaned. On a side note, after maintaining pools and spas I won't use a public hot tub either :).
 
The issue is not about whether or not there is the potential of introducing microbes by using tap water or ice . . . . there is a certainty of that. Your tap water and your ice has some level of microbes in it. It is a non-issue though if you are drinking a glass of icewater. The reason is simple - the level of "bugs" is relatively small, and you are introducing them into your stomach - filled with acid, where they are killed, or kept controlled.

Now, if you introduce that small amount of bacteria/bugs into a 5 gallon bucket of sugar water . . . . well, they won't die. They will reproduce. If they are introduced opposite a weak/small amount of yeast, they could get a foothold and cause problems.

Not saying it would for sure.... but, there is the potential to create an environment where the yeast might have to compete against other bugs.
 
cooldood said:
For the life of me I can not understand why so many people adamantly oppose using ice to cool wort. Coopers sells millions of extract kits and their instructions say heat the can.....yah de yah da pour water into primary to 23L I would think if there was a real risk of infection they would change their instructions. Some MidWest kits still have this in their instructions too. (The same water I make ice with)

We eat the ice every single day and I have never heard anyone say

"Did you boil that water before you made ice with it? Otherwise I am NOT taking the chance of getting sick"

Before all the hating starts let me say. I understand microbiology and know there are bugs everywhere but what is the real probability of infection?

There rant over :ban:
Click to expand...

Infected beer won't make you sick. It's the flavor of the beer that's at stake. The probability of infection using the ice method?, I don't know what the numerical odds are but I know enough about the possible bacterial contamination of ice that I would never do it. If you have had success and like the way your beer tastes then continue. The reason those instructions are used is because they are the simplest, lowest-common-denominator method of making beer. More sophisticated methods can improve your beer. Again, that choice is yours. :mug:
 
Why not just get an immersion chiller? Not have to worry about it as long as you put it in a few minutes before flame out. If you are going to use ice it would probably good to at least run it through a charcoal filter first.
 
You can eat millions of cells of acetobacteri and not even tast it nor will it make you sick. But those same bacteria in your beer can ruin it.

Safe to eat != safe to put in a post-boil fermenter.

Honestly beer is tougher than some people think and you can probably use fridge ice and not have a problem. The thing you have to ask yourself is, do you feel lucky?
 
biohaz7331 said:
Why not just get an immersion chiller? Not have to worry about it as long as you put it in a few minutes before flame out. If you are going to use ice it would probably good to at least run it through a charcoal filter first.
Click to expand...

It sure pays to read these posts; I've been hitting my IC with Starsan -- which is fine, but unnecessary. Simply brilliant. Thanks!
 
adiochiro3 said:
It sure pays to read these posts; I've been hitting my IC with Starsan -- which is fine, but unnecessary. Simply brilliant. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Your welcome! I just put it in 10 minutes before the end of the boil with the hoses connected because residual water will boil out of it and flow out of your IC.
 
It's been ages since I did partial boils, but when I did I always used ice. It's the one thing I really miss since moving away from extract. But, I can't for the life of me understand all these appeals to "luck".

Ice is just like everything else in homebrew: it will be sanitary or not depending on how you handle it. Scrape a few pounds of shavings from your never-been-cleaned ice fishing locker? Terrible idea, of course. Boil two gallons of water and freeze it in a clean container? Your risks of contamination will be essentially nil.
 
I'm going to have to say if I were to not have a chiller, I'd certainly HAVE to use ice. It's a no brainer! But I'd make sure to sanitize the mold (soda bottle, or what-have-you) and boil the water first. I'm not terribly concerned about our water here (other than the chloramines), but better safe than sorry. Eating a few small bugs that would ruin the taste of a beer isn't even noticeable. In fact, some of them are in your body constantly. When those same bugs get in your wort, they may eventually turn it sour or bad tasting.

You just don't know if you have a high amount of some of those bugs in your water. As far as purchased ice? No thanks. I don't mind eating it at a restaurant, but I don't want a large population of that stuff getting into my beer.
 
My tap water is full of chlorine and there for not sutable for brewing, but when I start my brew day I put 2 gallons of my bottled water in the freezer and add it to the primary fermenter after the wort has had an ice bath. It brings me right down to pitching temps.
 
My concerns would be twofold -
1.) Chlorine, or other "mineral" type things that might not be right with the water you use (might also be fine too).

2.) The faucet itself - it is not so much that your water is full of microbes, it is the faucet head or hose, etc. that is what is dirty. If you run water directly I think this is where the potential problem lies.

Again - much bigger concern if you are pitching inadequate yeast, etc. A good batch of yeast should easily outcompete any small amounts of "bugs".
 
Braufessor said:
My concerns would be twofold -
1.) Chlorine, or other "mineral" type things that might not be right with the water you use (might also be fine too).

2.) The faucet itself - it is not so much that your water is full of microbes, it is the faucet head or hose, etc. that is what is dirty. If you run water directly I think this is where the potential problem lies.

Again - much bigger concern if you are pitching inadequate yeast, etc. A good batch of yeast should easily outcompete any small amounts of "bugs".
Click to expand...

Sure, but that's why you boil and cool it. If your water doesn't get safe after a boil, ice is the least of your worries.
 
I was convinced that this was a trolling thread but now I'm not sure. Look, we do everything we can to minimize potential failures and certainly one of the most common failures is contamination. There's nothing wrong with using ice when you're doing partial boils but the best way to do it is to sanitize some small containers with lids and use dechlorinated water to make the ice. The reason why beginners kits have instructions that are less than optimal is that they don't want to be overwhelming in detail and potential pitfalls. They want people to brew again.
 
I am really REALLY glad this thread has not turned into troll play ground. That speaks volumes about the members and the MODs.

I am very careful about my ice (I am on a well so no chlorine) and have never used commercial ice. To the posts about people having cleaned commercial ice makers: My dad was a plumber and I was brought up in the biz. I doubt 95% of us would not ever drink water if we actually saw what is in a well ( think about it your water is sitting in a dirt hole for weeks). Even worse try repairing copper or black iron pipe. It is not uncommon to see a 1" pipe reduced down to 1/2" with deposits and GUNK.
I try to look at the risk with some plain ole common sense. If I host a party and put my wife's punch out (non alcohol)
I have no concern of drinking the non sanitized sugar water mix after 3-4 hours or more. Now if I served that outside in the sun it may be a different matter. Freezing water does not kill bacteria but it does create a hurdle and the bacteria must go through the lag phase before multiplying. If my Yeast is good hopefully it beats then to the punch.

On a side note how long have the wort chillers been around and what did people do before that?
 
Bobby_M said:
Look, we do everything we can to minimize potential failures and certainly one of the most common failures is contamination.
Click to expand...

My whole goal with brewing processes is to remove variables, not add them.

I'm sure you could use frozen urine to chill your wort, after all its sterile, but I'm not about to do that.

Beyond that a wort chiller, to me, is just a whole lot simpler than dealing with creating and storing a bunch of ice.
 
Xpertskir said:
My whole goal with brewing processes is to remove variables, not add them.
Click to expand...

Sure, but you're begging the question here. Why is freezing water adding more variables than, say, running large quantities of liquid through a heat exchanger? In both cases, it's essentially risk-free if you do it right, risky if you do it wrong, and somewhere in between for everything else.
 
I made over 25 batches using ice to cool my wort from boiling to pitching temps. I used MalFet's posted method: boil 1.5 gallons of store bought spring water (to avoid chlorine in my tap water), chill, pour into sanitized (with starsan) plastic food containers, and freeze. After the boil I would put my kettle in a sink with cold water and dump in the ice into the kettle to reach 5.5 gallons and chill to ~70F. Did the job in less than 15 minutes consistently.

My problems were competing for freezer space with my wife and the time it took to prepare the ice two days before brewing. It was, if nothing else, cost effective. I've upgraded to a 50' copper IC and love it.

The reason I used ice to chill was that we did not have the space in our small apartment to store the IC. Using ice (correctly) is a great way to chill your batch without adding more cost or equipment.
 
Luckily I have i have a freezer in the basement with plenty of room. But then again I live in Maine and most days the deck would work just fine . LOL 5 degrees f today
 
MalFet said:
Sure, but that's why you boil and cool it. If your water doesn't get safe after a boil, ice is the least of your worries.
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree with that 100% - I was thinking more along the lines of people who just run water straight from the tap to top off, or grab ice out of their ice tray in the freezer, or freeze water without boiling it first. If there are precautions and time taken to boil - absolutely - basically zero danger at that point IMO.
 
Xpertskir said:
My whole goal with brewing processes is to remove variables, not add them.
Click to expand...

If I could reduce all of my 17 years of brewing experience down to one, single sentence that encapsulated every positive step I have taken to improve my beer...... I could not sum it up better than this sentence. This summarizes what has allowed me to move from a beginner, to intermediate, to the point where I feel I can consistently turn out some good beer.
 
I was wondering. Since cloudy ice is cloudy because of the air being pushed to the center when it starts to freeze. Kind of like you see with ice made frozen into blocks in a refrigerator. Could the cloudy ice cause hot side aeration? Would boiling the water 1st, drive out the air? I have never used ice to cool wort. Not, that I have anything against it. I just don't feel like figuring out how many pounds that I would need to cool down 10-15 gallons of wort. Or, about the amount of space needed in the boiler to hold the extra melted water. Nor, do I want to water down the wort. If ice was used, the wort would need to be of a higher gravity to compensate for the added water. The denser the wort, more ice would be needed for cooling. To me, it would seem that in order to be accurate. A brewer would have to keep records on how many pounds of ice was needed to cool the wort to pitching temp, throughout different gravities. 1040, 45, 50, etc.. Probably a syrup or powder beer would be OK, if only a couple of gallons of wort was boiled up. Then, ice or cold water could be added, to cool it down and lower the gravity to the level that the recipe claims it should be. Do you brewers that use ice, just dump in what you think is enough ice? Then, wait to see what happens with the temp of the wort?.... Nah. I'll stay away from ice. There seems to be too much figuring needed. I don't have anything against dumping in ice. Especially, if circumstances, call for it. I use a plate chiller, because I can.
 
It is dirt simple if you are doing partial extracts. I know how many gallons of wort and what the temp is. and since I am not doing a full boil I need make up water. I littlerally have one one small bucket of ice into the fermenter pour in wort and in about 2 minutes I am at pitching temp.

It is not that I am not able to use a plate chiller I just personally do not see the benefit to me when doing partial extracts.
 
VladOfTrub said:
I was wondering. Since cloudy ice is cloudy because of the air being pushed to the center when it starts to freeze. Kind of like you see with ice made frozen into blocks in a refrigerator. Could the cloudy ice cause hot side aeration? Would boiling the water 1st, drive out the air? I have never used ice to cool wort. Not, that I have anything against it. I just don't feel like figuring out how many pounds that I would need to cool down 10-15 gallons of wort. Or, about the amount of space needed in the boiler to hold the extra melted water. Nor, do I want to water down the wort. If ice was used, the wort would need to be of a higher gravity to compensate for the added water. The denser the wort, more ice would be needed for cooling. To me, it would seem that in order to be accurate. A brewer would have to keep records on how many pounds of ice was needed to cool the wort to pitching temp, throughout different gravities. 1040, 45, 50, etc.. Probably a syrup or powder beer would be OK, if only a couple of gallons of wort was boiled up. Then, ice or cold water could be added, to cool it down and lower the gravity to the level that the recipe claims it should be. Do you brewers that use ice, just dump in what you think is enough ice? Then, wait to see what happens with the temp of the wort?.... Nah. I'll stay away from ice. There seems to be too much figuring needed. I don't have anything against dumping in ice. Especially, if circumstances, call for it. I use a plate chiller, because I can.
Click to expand...

I think the discussion is focused mostly on people doing stovetop kits with a partial boil. Those people generally add cold water to make their final volume and ice would be more efficient in cooling the hot wort. Hot Side Aeration is not a problem.

People doing full boils have probably graduated to using some form of chiller.
 
VladOfTrub said:
I was wondering. Since cloudy ice is cloudy because of the air being pushed to the center when it starts to freeze. Kind of like you see with ice made frozen into blocks in a refrigerator. Could the cloudy ice cause hot side aeration? Would boiling the water 1st, drive out the air? I have never used ice to cool wort. Not, that I have anything against it. I just don't feel like figuring out how many pounds that I would need to cool down 10-15 gallons of wort. Or, about the amount of space needed in the boiler to hold the extra melted water. Nor, do I want to water down the wort. If ice was used, the wort would need to be of a higher gravity to compensate for the added water. The denser the wort, more ice would be needed for cooling. To me, it would seem that in order to be accurate. A brewer would have to keep records on how many pounds of ice was needed to cool the wort to pitching temp, throughout different gravities. 1040, 45, 50, etc.. Probably a syrup or powder beer would be OK, if only a couple of gallons of wort was boiled up. Then, ice or cold water could be added, to cool it down and lower the gravity to the level that the recipe claims it should be. Do you brewers that use ice, just dump in what you think is enough ice? Then, wait to see what happens with the temp of the wort?.... Nah. I'll stay away from ice. There seems to be too much figuring needed. I don't have anything against dumping in ice. Especially, if circumstances, call for it. I use a plate chiller, because I can.
Click to expand...

You're over thinking this a little. When chilling using ice additions I boiled down to 4 gallons of wort so I could add about 1.5 gallons of ice to bring it up to 5.5 gallons going into the fermenter. This plus a cold water bath in the sink would bring it down from boil to pitching temps in 15 minutes or less EVERY TIME. Did not matter if I was making a low gravity Belgian Wit or a DIPA. I've done this with boiled water and I've done it with store-bought spring water straight out of the bottle. Those Gladd/Ziploc containers have graduations on them so you know about how much ice you're making. It took a little experimenting + note taking but this is the method that worked for me. Just my $0.02.
 
When ice freezes it crystallizes, as we all know, this ruptures the cell membranes of bacteria. --- infectious disease management class.

While maybe not 100% true, ice should be relatively sterile
 
gstrawn said:
When ice freezes it crystallizes, as we all know, this ruptures the cell membranes of bacteria. --- infectious disease management class.

While maybe not 100% true, ice should be relatively sterile
Click to expand...

In my neck of the woods, frozen ice cream is a common vector for cholera, and I've personally gotten sick from contaminated ice. Ice is definitely not necessarily sterile or anywhere close to it.
 
Homercidal said:
I think the discussion is focused mostly on people doing stovetop kits with a partial boil. Those people generally add cold water to make their final volume and ice would be more efficient in cooling the hot wort. Hot Side Aeration is not a problem.

People doing full boils have probably graduated to using some form of chiller.
Click to expand...
I agree except I would say moved not graduated LOL

ZombieBrew83 said:
You're over thinking this a little. When chilling using ice additions I boiled down to 4 gallons of wort so I could add about 1.5 gallons of ice to bring it up to 5.5 gallons going into the fermenter. This plus a cold water bath in the sink would bring it down from boil to pitching temps in 15 minutes or less EVERY TIME. Did not matter if I was making a low gravity Belgian Wit or a DIPA. I've done this with boiled water and I've done it with store-bought spring water straight out of the bottle. Those Gladd/Ziploc containers have graduations on them so you know about how much ice you're making. It took a little experimenting + note taking but this is the method that worked for me. Just my $0.02.
Click to expand...
This my point exactly.
 
MalFet said:
In my neck of the woods, frozen ice cream is a common vector for cholera, and I've personally gotten sick from contaminated ice. Ice is definitely not necessarily sterile or anywhere close to it.
Click to expand...

Not saying it IS sterile. Saying the freezing process sterilizes it. My carboy isn't sterile now but it was at one time. If handled correctly after sterilization (freezing) then it should be at reasonably sterie.
 
gstrawn said:
Not saying it IS sterile. Saying the freezing process sterilizes it. My carboy isn't sterile now but it was at one time. If handled correctly after sterilization (freezing) then it should be at reasonably sterie.
Click to expand...

No, that's not so.

I dare you to have a glass of ice in Mexico. Believe me, freezing does NOT sanitize/sterilize. In order for the ice to be safe, it has to be made with purified water.

Freezing may kill some bacteria, but certainly not all. If you freeze to 0 degrees, and hold it there for a length of time, you'd probably get most of them though not all. Most freezers aren't set at 0 degrees, although from a food safety standpoint they should be.

Freezing would inactivate all the bacteria, but not kill them. Once thawed, they'd be active again.
 
gstrawn said:
Not saying it IS sterile. Saying the freezing process sterilizes it. My carboy isn't sterile now but it was at one time. If handled correctly after sterilization (freezing) then it should be at reasonably sterie.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying, it's just not true.

Believe me, I've spent far, far more time thinking about what will make water safe to drink than any sane person should, and freezing doesn't do it. I've also frozen cultures without cryoprotectants and -- though you'll kill a lot of cells this way -- the kill rate is still three orders of magnitude away from sanitized, let alone sterile.
 
Like Sammy says,

I'm goin' way down south where the big blue agave grow
Takin' a weekend trip down to Baja, Mexico!
Where you can drink the water, but don't ya eat the ice
Take your vitamin T with salt and lemon slice
 
MalFet said:
I understand what you're saying, it's just not true.

Believe me, I've spent far, far more time thinking about what will make water safe to drink than any sane person should, and freezing doesn't do it. I've also frozen cultures without cryoprotectants and -- though you'll kill a lot of cells this way -- the kill rate is still three orders of magnitude away from sanitized, let alone sterile.
Click to expand...

I work in the food industry and deal with this on a daily basis.
Freezing does not "sanitize" water. But it does reduce the risk. It is a very good hurdle and used in conjunction with other hurdles can be effective.
For example a glass of water with "Mexican ice" is a lot less safe to drink than
a glass of the same ice filled with tequila or adding the ice to something with low ph. or high in salt.

The question is not if it is sterile cause almost nothing is.
The question is, Is the risk reasonable.
 
I thoroughly enjoy the "If you saw what I saw when I cleaned _________ You would never eat/drink/go in __________ ever again." I'll just never touch or do anything ever again! Everything is dirty, everything has bacteria, everything causes cancer...
 
cooldood said:
I work in the food industry and deal with this on a daily basis.
Freezing does not "sanitize" water. But it does reduce the risk. It is a very good hurdle and used in conjunction with other hurdles can be effective.
For example a glass of water with "Mexican ice" is a lot less safe to drink than
a glass of the same ice filled with tequila or adding the ice to something with low ph. or high in salt.

The question is not if it is sterile cause almost nothing is.
The question is, Is the risk reasonable.
Click to expand...

A much simpler solution with essentially no risk is just to use clean water and proper handling techniques in the first place.
 

Similar threads

R
Hard Seltzer
Replies
2
Views
365
redrocker652002
R
O
Tangy Aftertaste
Replies
5
Views
801
hottpeper13
H
pacostagli
Simple Question - When to move into Secondary?
Replies
27
Views
3K
pacostagli
pacostagli
CallMeKiupid
My First Brews .... what should I look out for?
Replies
10
Views
1K
CallMeKiupid
CallMeKiupid
B
Sparkling Wines & Carbonation
Replies
2
Views
3K
ShellinTX
ShellinTX
BrewSwag 300

Latest posts

Back
Top