Bad efficiency on first 2 AG batches. Could it be pH?

I've done 2 batch sparge all grain batches and both had an efficiency just under 60%. One was crushed by Norther Brewer and one was crushed by my LHBS, so I don't think the crush is the issue. I followed all of the steps in the "Maximizing Efficiency when Batch Sparging" sticky EXCEPT pH. I just checked my local water report and it looks like I hover around 7.2 to 7.4. So I have two questions:

1. Would the pH be enough to explain the efficiency I'm seeing?
2. Would buffer 5.2 be enough to correct my pH?

Thanks!

I don't think it's pH. When you combine the malt with your water, you should be in the ballpark. Many people on here say that 5.2 is BS and that the only people who use it are those that don't have pH meters. What kind of lauter tun do you have? You could be having issues because of the design of that.

Without seeing it I would still suspect the crush of the grain. Your suppliers have to balance between efficiency and stuck sparges from having the grain milled to fine. People accept the poorer mash efficiency and just adjust by purchasing more grain (from whom?) while anyone with a history of stuck sparges will blame the LHBS and go elsewhere, never to return.

I'd suspect mash temp before ph. If you're sure on proper temp, I'd go with crush.

I would look at temperature first. Boil some water and check the temperature of it. If it boils at 205 your thermometer is off and you need to allow for the difference. You may be mashing very hot or too cold. I have several that are way off. As long as you know what it says when it is really 154 you are ok.

+1 on the crush. Without knowing the rest of the setup, it seems like it could be the culprit only because it sounds super familiar to me. My first several AG were crushed by my LHBS and had similar (60%ish) results. Tried a few different mash temps to the same ends. Bought a Barley Crusher and been hovering around 75% ever since.
Not that I think they're intentionally being shady, and I love my LHBS, but for all the reasons RM-MN mentioned, it happens.

Okie12beer said:

I would look at temperature first. Boil some water and check the temperature of it. If it boils at 205 your thermometer is off and you need to allow for the difference. You may be mashing very hot or too cold. I have several that are way off. As long as you know what it says when it is really 154 you are ok.

Click to expand...

I'd have to disagree with this. My water DOES boil at 205F because of my elevation! Temp is very important and so is a proper calibrated thermometer, but going by your advice could be misleading unless you know for a fact that water boils at 212F in your geographic conditions...

Answers to some of your questions:

- I'm pretty sure my thermometer is good. Before making my brew kettle, I used this thermometer with extract brews to see when I was getting close to boiling. It always boiled right around 212.

- My mash tun is a 10 gallon water cooler with a stainless braid. Basically this:

+1 on the grind. Northern Brewer does a very poor job of grinding their grain IMHO. My first AG kit from them I didn't re-grind the grain, and I ended up with a very poor efficiency and missed my OG by 4 points on the low side. The second kit I purchased at the same time as the first as they shipped together and my buddy re-ground for me. My buddy took one look at the bag and said that the grind was definitely the problem. I hit over 82% efficiency batch sparging and 4 points high on the OG on the second kit we re-ground. I am going to buy the Barley Grinder and grind myself from now on.

My first two batches seemed to be low efficiency also. I use Brewsmith and after plugging in the numbers I seemed to come up low. My last batch was a high gravity beer using a 21 Lb. grain bill. I see for a small fee many of the online sites will grind your grains a second time so I was at my LHBS and decided for a few extra minutes I would grind it all again. (Their grinder goes about as fast as you can dump it.) So you might try a site that offers this or if you are lucky to have a shop near by do it yourself. The biggest thing though isn't just water in and water out, if using Beersmith make sure your post volume boil is accurate. If it says 5.5 gallons and you didn't lose as much during the boil and have say 6, your wort is not as concentrated so you think you have lower efficiency. Take your SG after cool down and on the way to the fermenter, hot wort will also throw your readings. My point is, make sure you are accurate in checking your efficiency before you condemn it.

b-tone said:

+1 on the crush. Without knowing the rest of the setup, it seems like it could be the culprit only because it sounds super familiar to me. My first several AG were crushed by my LHBS and had similar (60%ish) results. Tried a few different mash temps to the same ends. Bought a Barley Crusher and been hovering around 75% ever since.
Not that I think they're intentionally being shady, and I love my LHBS, but for all the reasons RM-MN mentioned, it happens.

Click to expand...

+1
I also had efficiency issues. I bought a grain mill and changed my manifold to copper. That solved the problem. If I started having efficiency issues now I would look at the gap on my mill first.

I have to say, I've bought quite a bit of crushed grain from NB and never had efficiency problems, at least not that bad. If you break it down, the problem has to be in your mash or in your lauter - either you're not making the sugar, or you aren't rinsing it effectively. Here's a simple diagnostic: next time you brew, when you're done collecting wort do another infusion, stir, and collect some more. If it yields wort of substantial gravity, then you know that you're leaving sugar in your mash tun. If that's the case, you might want to consider fly sparging. If not, look at the mash itself - what were your mash times and temps?
I would definitely recheck my math if I were you, as well. First rule of troubleshooting - make sure it's plugged in.

I am new and only have done 2 AG batches both were kits from NB. I am starting to think my issues with efficiency (54% and 64%) are a result of bad crush from NB.

my water ph is fine and always nailed mash temps w a calibrated thermometer. leads me to believe that NB crush maybe the culprit.

Sounds like the consensus is crush. I'm going to my LHBS this weekend for my next brew. I'll ask for a fine crush and see what happens. I'll also pick up some pH strips and measure my mash pH

For what it's worth, brewmasters warehouse does a good job of milling the grain. I typically get around 75% efficiencies from my recipes. Although, next on my list is a mill so I can start buying in bulk.

Yes I would agree that investing in your own grain mill would help. I also think fly sparging is the way to rinse out all those precious sugars.

I'm planning on brewing this weekend with ingredients from Farmhouse Brewing Supply. I paid the extra buck for double milling, so this should determine if my low efficiency is due to a crappy crush. Everything else will be kept the same to eliminate one variable at a time. Hopefully I'll be able to report back with good news.

vtron said:

I've done 2 batch sparge all grain batches and both had an efficiency just under 60%. One was crushed by Norther Brewer and one was crushed by my LHBS, so I don't think the crush is the issue. I followed all of the steps in the "Maximizing Efficiency when Batch Sparging" sticky EXCEPT pH. I just checked my local water report and it looks like I hover around 7.2 to 7.4. So I have two questions:

1. Would the pH be enough to explain the efficiency I'm seeing?
2. Would buffer 5.2 be enough to correct my pH?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

I would offer one suggestion from this new homebrewer.... I too have hard water (San Diego), in fact my water profile per the county is higher than 7.4. Reading and taking the advice of others, I didn't sweat too much, as Ph has a way of reaching equilibrium in the mash. Just to be able to sleep at night (I suffer from OCD at times), I tested my Ph at mid mash and it indeed lowerd to 5.1 - 5.3.

You may consider testing your mash before you go down the road of adding additional "stuff" to your brewing process. I was glad I did.

Cheers,
JG

In lower MI here we have rock hard water and 7.8-8.0 pH range. I generally cut it depending on the style being brewed. Haven't had issues yet.

jgroesbeck said:

I would offer one suggestion from this new homebrewer.... I too have hard water (San Diego), in fact my water profile per the county is higher than 7.4. Reading and taking the advice of others, I didn't sweat too much, as Ph has a way of reaching equilibrium in the mash. Just to be able to sleep at night (I suffer from OCD at times), I tested my Ph at mid mash and it indeed lowerd to 5.1 - 5.3.

You may consider testing your mash before you go down the road of adding additional "stuff" to your brewing process. I was glad I did.

Cheers,
JG

Click to expand...

Thanks. I plan on testing the mash pH when I brew this weekend.

Looks like it was the crush. Hit my gravity exactly, with over 80% efficiency.

My mash pH was a bit high, at 5.7. Next brew I'll experiment with the water profile.

BrewMU said:

I have to say, I've bought quite a bit of crushed grain from NB and never had efficiency problems, at least not that bad. If you break it down, the problem has to be in your mash or in your lauter - either you're not making the sugar, or you aren't rinsing it effectively. Here's a simple diagnostic: next time you brew, when you're done collecting wort do another infusion, stir, and collect some more. If it yields wort of substantial gravity, then you know that you're leaving sugar in your mash tun. If that's the case, you might want to consider fly sparging. If not, look at the mash itself - what were your mash times and temps?
I would definitely recheck my math if I were you, as well. First rule of troubleshooting - make sure it's plugged in.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but this was visually very obvious! I only purchased 2 all grain kits from them, but I am 100% sure both were not ground properly from their store. Maybe an isolated incident, but those are the facts. I love NB and buy from them all the time. I just switched to no crush and purchased a Barley Crusher to great results.