Does anyone WHIRLPOOL when transferring to secondary???

grndslm said:

I missed the part where you proved whirlpooling was "completely useless". That would seem very difficult to prove a negative. You would likely have to have done it before yourself; then and only then would we have empirical evidence.

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I whisper sweet nothings to my beer for four hours every night as it ferments. I also never change my underwear when I have a batch going, and I make sure that no magnets or capricorns are within 100 yards of me when I make starters. Most importantly, I pay a troop of Japanese monks to keep constant vigil over my beers as they carbonate in the bottle.

If you want to propose that there is a positive effect to whirlpooling your beer into secondary (beyond the well documented potential negative effects), let's see either a mechanism or some data.

You're right. Nobody has proven that it won't help. But, then again, there's no reason to suspect that it will.

Reno_eNVy said:

Can't tell if you're being rude or are just terribly dense.

Of course the apparent color of the beer changes color. When the yeast have reproduced to appropriate concentrations they will spread throughout the wort and make the wort look much much lighter. Then, once they drop out, the beer will get much darker.... and also much darker than what it will look like in a pint glass.

How about you take some advice from people who know what they are doing and not insist that you know the answer to the question you're asking.

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Did you read the process we followed for that extract brew??? Boiling hops, cutting off burner, then adding all extract WITHOUT turning burner back on.

Have you ever done that? The brew was yellow. By the time the 10-day primary was up, it had changed to a light brown (still almost yellow). By the half-way point of the 3-week secondary, the beer was half the original light brown when it was transferred, while the other half was a "bloodier", "rustier" color. All of it is that bloody, rusty color now... although it started out as yellow as a manila envelope.

Soo.... are you doubting me?? Or have you never actually done this process before?

The distinction between different phases of fermentation was not easily visible to me with "caramelized extract" that was boiled for 60 minutes. It wasn't until the Light LME was all added *after* the boil that I was able to see these VERY distinct color changes.

weirdboy said:

*sigh* if you are really going to be this defensive, then let's use the scientific method.
State your hypothesis and predictions up front as to why whirlpooling will help your beer.

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As soon as this thread fades into oblivion and I finish the book, Yeast... I will then be able to make my hypothesis.

weirdboy said:

And oxygen causes oxidation, which means off flavors in your beer. Also, maybe I'm not understanding your statement, but I don't get a whirlpool when I use my racking cane. Maybe you're doing something wrong.

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Here's what we do when it's time to bottle....

(1) Start racking to bottling bucket
(2) At 25% to 33% full level, we then add the priming sugar.
(3) Continue racking to bottling bucket
(4) Take racking cane and dip it all the way down into the bucket.
(5) Swirl racking cane around inner portion of bucket, until vortex is achieved.

Similar to how this stir plate forms a vertex...


Again, since using this new "process", as opposed to my friend's "let the hose make a 'natural whirlpool'" process... we have 100% consistent bottled beer now. It's just that simple. With his method, there were always carbonation problems... whereas now, there are none!

EDIT: from that video, I have found my hypothesis.... creating a whirlpool facilitates an environment in which the yeast are GUARANTEED to dominate!

grndslm said:

I boiled the hops only, turned the burner off, then added the extract, and NOT turning the burner back on...

...but maybe swirling (without splashing) the yeast in secondary is just as good as swirling the yeast in primary??

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First thing first... Yooper is by far the best person to ask any tech. question about brewing on this site. Heeding any advice from yooper will make you a better brewer.

Now... Am i the only one to catch the above statement? Only boiled hops and dumped extract into the "Hop water" and wondering why his beer wont clear? Am i the only one who thinks this guy is a troll?

To address your question.
1. You stir your yeast in a starter.
2. You slowly agitate the yeast in primary. NEVER stir and create a whirlpool, you WILL introduce oxygen and other particles that the yeast will have to fight off.
3. IF you transfer to secondary (really only needed if you dry hop, oak, add fruit or other ingredients to the beer) If you stir you WILL introduce oxygen and other particles that the yeast will not be able to fight off due to the higher abv and stress that they have already incurred.


Off subject, are you from Canada? Do you make yeast starters using rubber gloves and lotion? #crazycanuck

JoeBronco said:

Off subject, are you from Canada? Do you make yeast starters using rubber gloves and lotion? #crazycanuck

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hey! I made that reference already, but it got biermunched.

I get credit!!

grndslm said:

Again, since using this new "process", as opposed to my friend's "let the hose make a 'natural whirlpool'" process... we have 100% consistent bottled beer now. It's just that simple. With his method, there were always carbonation problems... whereas now, there are none!

Click to expand...

Nobody is doubting that letting the beer whirlpool into the bottling bucket (thus mixing it with the priming solution) is a good idea. This is a well known, well discussed notion that even your buddy Palmer recommends. That's not what's at issue here.

I sent this tread to Tasty to see what he thinks I wonder if he's going to laugh at the process or cry as there is BAD beer being made...

Gently stirring and waiting for 15-20 minutes will accomplish the same thing, carbontaion-wise (yes, I have personal experience over many batches), and it won't introduce as much oxygen into your beer.

Again, after fermentation has finished, you don't want to introduce oxygen into your beer. Having been brewing for only 6 weeks yet, you possibly haven't even run into the issue yet, but certainly for longer term storage this is an issue that commercial breweries spend millions of dollars trying to prevent. As Yooper said earlier, the off flavors start off subtle at first and then gradually get worse over time, until your beer tastes like sherry or cardboard.

weirdboy said:

Gently stirring and waiting for 15-20 minutes will accomplish the same thing, carbontaion-wise (yes, I have personal experience over many batches), and it won't introduce as much oxygen into your beer.

Again, after fermentation has finished, you don't want to introduce oxygen into your beer. Having been brewing for only 6 weeks yet, you possibly haven't even run into the issue yet, but certainly for longer term storage this is an issue that commercial breweries spend millions of dollars trying to prevent. As Yooper said earlier, the off flavors start off subtle at first and then gradually get worse over time, until your beer tastes like sherry or cardboard.

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I think the OP is all about changing the process that experts and the people that do this for a living have set as a standard. Reinventing the wheel and making it square and calling it innovation.

- Dont think "creating a vortex" is gently. Let the OP make his sherry beer and call it a day. Ferment around 100 degrees and make a Madeira beer if thats what floats your boat.

grndslm said:

Have you ever done that? The brew was yellow. By the time the 10-day primary was up, it had changed to a light brown (still almost yellow). By the half-way point of the 3-week secondary, the beer was half the original light brown when it was transferred, while the other half was a "bloodier", "rustier" color. All of it is that bloody, rusty color now... although it started out as yellow as a manila envelope.

Soo.... are you doubting me?? Or have you never actually done this process before?

The distinction between different phases of fermentation was not easily visible to me with "caramelized extract" that was boiled for 60 minutes. It wasn't until the Light LME was all added *after* the boil that I was able to see these VERY distinct color changes.

Click to expand...

*sigh* Okay, you're right. All hail the omniscient newbie.


I'm voting for "he's trolling and someone should lock the thread."

First thing first... Yooper is by far the best person to ask any tech. question about brewing. Heeding any advice from yooper will make you a better brewer.[/quote]I got the advice from her (Yooper *is* a she, right?)

JoeBronco said:

Now... Am i the only one to catch the above statement? Only boiled hops and dumped extract into the "Hop water" and wondering why his beer wont clear? Am i the only one who thinks this guy is a troll?

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Again.... I got this idea from Yooper. Search my posts. Yooper might have suggested to bring it back to a boil for at least a minute, but I didn't do that.... because it doesn't seem necessary. Just read my past posts, and you'll see where others claim to have done the same as me.

Where did you get the impression that I'm "wondering why my beer won't clear", tho??? It's doing what it needs to do. It's doing what it's always done before. It's just that I CAN SEE IT ALL CLEARLY this time!!!

JoeBronco said:

To address your question.
1. You stir your yeast in a starter.
2. You slowly agitate the yeast in primary. NEVER stir and create a whirlpool, you WILL introduce oxygen and other particles that the yeast will have to fight off.
3. IF you transfer to secondary (really only needed if you dry hop, oak, add fruit or other ingredients to the beer) If you stir you WILL introduce oxygen and other particles that the yeast will not be able to fight off due to the higher abv and stress that they have already incurred.

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1. you don't HAVE to, bu it provides a better environment for the yeast if you DO.
2. yeast are aerobic. During the first part of fermentation, they NEED oxygen. It is commonly recommended to add oxygen for the first 24-hrs. Even lagers must be drug out some time and rolled around on the floor to keep fermentation going.
3. we transfer to secondary for none of those reasons; we do it for clarity and for washing our yeast.

MalFet said:

Nobody is doubting that letting the beer whirlpool into the bottling bucket (thus mixing it with the priming solution) is a good idea. This is a well known, well discussed notion that even your buddy Palmer recommends. That's not what's at issue here.

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Well, my friend read Palmer's HTB, and he didn't catch that memo. Again, dozens of batches of beer he has not wanted to do it because of the words of Palmer. I can't help what Palmer did or did not write and what my friend did or did not read.

weirdboy said:

Gently stirring and waiting for 15-20 minutes will accomplish the same thing, carbontaion-wise (yes, I have personal experience over many batches), and it won't introduce as much oxygen into your beer.

Again, after fermentation has finished, you don't want to introduce oxygen into your beer. Having been brewing for only 6 weeks yet, you possibly haven't even run into the issue yet, but certainly for longer term storage this is an issue that commercial breweries spend millions of dollars trying to prevent. As Yooper said earlier, the off flavors start off subtle at first and then gradually get worse over time, until your beer tastes like sherry or cardboard.

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I hear you. I will need more experimentation.

Everybody now seems to be in agreement that "gently stirring" in the bottling bucket is a good decision??

I just don't understand the need to wait for 15-20 minutes at this point. There is virtually no sediment in our beer by the time it gets to the bottling bucket, so there's no need to wait at this point.

Everybody now seems to be in agreement that "gently stirring" in the bottling bucket is a good decision??

I just don't understand the need to wait for 15-20 minutes at this point. There is virtually no sediment in our beer by the time it gets to the bottling bucket, so there's no need to wait at this point.

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The reason you wait is because you are combining two solutions: your beer, and the priming sugar solution. This is a chemical process that takes a bit of time to become one homogenous solution of primed beer. The gentle stirring helps speed up the process (as does whirlpooling, I suppose), but just waiting a little bit will accomplish the same thing thanks to convection and Brownian motion.

JoeBronco said:

I think the OP is all about changing the process that experts and the people that do this for a living have set as a standard. Reinventing the wheel and making it square and calling it innovation.

- Dont think "creating a vortex" is gently. Let the OP make his sherry beer and call it a day. Ferment around 100 degrees and make a Madeira beer if thats what floats your boat.

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JoeBronco, you are almost spot on. I am not about CHANGING the process, but merely UNDERSTANDING the process thru QUESTIONING and EXPERIMENTATION.

Just look thru my post history, "should I shake my bottles up?" "i just added all the extract AFTER the boil? did i make a mistake?", etcetera.

Things aren't quite as "clear cut" as the "experts" make them out to seem, and Yooper was actually on my side of most of these "outrageously preposterous questions that should never be asked".

I think that a stir plate creates a vortex, and stir plates create good environments for yeast (provided you have just removed the trub / sediment).

Reno_eNVy said:

*sigh* Okay, you're right. All hail the omniscient newbie.


I'm voting for "he's trolling and someone should lock the thread."

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OK... so, I was having a conversation with somebody else, describing the colors...

And then you hopped in...

Can't tell if you're being rude or are just terribly dense.

Of course the apparent color of the beer changes color. When the yeast have reproduced to appropriate concentrations they will spread throughout the wort and make the wort look much much lighter. Then, once they drop out, the beer will get much darker.... and also much darker than what it will look like in a pint glass.

How about you take some advice from people who know what they are doing and not insist that you know the answer to the question you're asking.

Click to expand...

But now that I clarified for you the conversation that you weren't in, you have decided to ignore my questions altogether, label me a troll, and demand that the troll's thread be locked... ALL BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS???

ONE MORE TIME!!!

grndslm said:

Have you ever done that? The brew was yellow. By the time the 10-day primary was up, it had changed to a light brown (still almost yellow). By the half-way point of the 3-week secondary, the beer was half the original light brown when it was transferred, while the other half was a "bloodier", "rustier" color. All of it is that bloody, rusty color now... although it started out as yellow as a manila envelope.

Soo.... are you doubting me?? Or have you never actually done this process before?

The distinction between different phases of fermentation was not easily visible to me with "caramelized extract" that was boiled for 60 minutes. It wasn't until the Light LME was all added *after* the boil that I was able to see these VERY distinct color changes.

Click to expand...

I'm going to bet that you, like 99.8% of the HBT users have NEVER done this before. Amirite?

grndslm said:

Again.... I got this idea from Yooper. Search my posts. Yooper might have suggested to bring it back to a boil for at least a minute, but I didn't do that.... because it doesn't seem necessary. Just read my past posts, and you'll see where others claim to have done the same as me.

Where did you get the impression that I'm "wondering why my beer won't clear", tho??? It's doing what it needs to do. It's doing what it's always done before. It's just that I CAN SEE IT ALL CLEARLY this time!!!

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Boiling malt extract or wort causes proteins to coagulate and drop out of solution easily. This is called "hot break" and significantly helps with achieving clear beer.

grndslm said:

yeast are aerobic.

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Wrong

grndslm said:

During the first part of fermentation, they NEED oxygen.

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This is partially true. They need oxygen during reproduction, not fermentation. During fermentation oxygen is pushed out by CO2

grndslm said:

It is commonly recommended to add oxygen for the first 24-hrs.

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So very wrong.... well, right if you like cardboard beer. Common recommendation is 30 seconds to 1 minute.

grndslm said:

Even lagers must be drug out some time and rolled around on the floor to keep fermentation going.

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..... what?!

grndslm said:

I hear you. I will need more experimentation.

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No, you don't hear. When we say "It's been documented over and over and is and industry standard" and you hear "hmmm, maybe I should experiment and prove thousands of experts who spent tons of money on research wrong"

grndslm said:

Everybody now seems to be in agreement that "gently stirring" in the bottling bucket is a good decision??

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Um... yes.... either by whirlpooling slightly by angling your racking cane or from gently stirring with a spoon or something. Everybody is in full agreement there. You're not coming up with anything new. What we've been TRYING to say is whirlpooling in the secondary (not the bottling bucket... I'll say it again, NOT the bottling bucket) is pointless, a waste of time, and possibly deterimental.

grndslm said:

I just don't understand the need to wait for 15-20 minutes at this point. There is virtually no sediment in our beer by the time it gets to the bottling bucket, so there's no need to wait at this point.

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*sigh* Of course there is no sediment because you want to leave it behind in the secondary. He was saying you stir and then wait 15-20 minutes. It will keep stirring because (funny thing) liquid has mass and interia to keep it going.

grndslm said:

But now that I clarified for you the conversation that you weren't in, you have decided to ignore my questions altogether, label me a troll, and demand that the troll's thread be locked... ALL BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS???

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Well people have been trying to answer your questions (and by trying I mean at least 5 different people have actually answered it) but your thought process is obviously beyond our scope of undertstanding. You should probably seek advice from Mensa, then.

Dont lock! Just move to Drunken Ramblings and Mindless Mumbling!

As the saying goes;
you can lead an ungulate to water, but can't make em drink.

IXVolt said:

As the saying goes;
you can lead an ungulate to BEER, but can't make em drink.

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Fixed

JoeBronco said:

Fixed

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Hah, thanks.

JoeBronco said:

Dont lock! Just move to Drunken Ramblings and Mindless Mumbling!

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Yeah that seems more appropriate

Reno_eNVy said:

Boiling malt extract or wort causes proteins to coagulate and drop out of solution easily. This is called "hot break" and significantly helps with achieving clear beer.

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Clarity comes from the yeast. The beer is very clear, it's only its initial color that was different and allowed us to see the distinct phases in fermentation.

Reno_eNVy said:

Wrong

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From Chris & Jamil's Yeast, pgs. 23 & 24:

"The uptake of oxygen happens rapidly, with the yeast usually depleting wort oxygen levels within 30 minutes of inoculation. In nature, yeast sitting on top of a pile of rotting fruit have lots of oxygen they can use to consume sugar. This is aerobic growth, which is the most effective way for an organism to get the greatest amount of energy out of a sugar molecule. However, there are times where oxygen is limited. Consuming sugar in an oxygen-free environment leads to anaerobic growth. Louis Pasteur coined the term "anaerobic fermentation" in the 1860s, to describe the ability of yeast to grow when oxygen deprived."

Sooo... technically, it is both aerobic and anaerobic, from my understanding...

Reno_eNVy said:

This is partially true. They need oxygen during reproduction, not fermentation. During fermentation oxygen is pushed out by CO2

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MMm... not qualified to dispute.

Reno_eNVy said:

So very wrong.... well, right if you like cardboard beer. Common recommendation is 30 seconds to 1 minutes.

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I have seen the 24-hr recommendation on this forum more often than I have seen any other recommendation about oxygen after pitching.

Reno_eNVy said:

..... what?!

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I have read that brewers will take lager carboys out and roll them on the ground to wake the yeast up.

Reno_eNVy said:

No, you don't hear. When we say "It's been documented over and over and is and industry standard" and you hear "hmmm, maybe I should experiment and prove thousands of experts who spent tons of money on research wrong"

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I don't hear you?? OK then! (do you guys not realize how you try to put words in my mouth in virtually every single post? all I'm doing is asking questions based on my understanding of a couple books and this forum. there is no other resource I have other than a couple books and this forum. I REPEAT --- ALL I AM DOING IS ASKING QUESTIONS BASED ON MY UNDERSTANDING OF A COUPLE BOOKS AND THIS FORUM.

Reno_eNVy said:

Um... yes.... either by whirlpooling slightly by angling your racking cane or from gently stirring with a spoon or something. Everybody is in full agreement there. You're not coming up with anything new. What we've been TRYING to say is whirlpooling in the secondary (not the bottling bucket... I'll say it again, NOT the bottling bucket) is pointless, a waste of time, and possibly deterimental.

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I hear you, but I believe otherwise. Perhaps I will come around to the dark side after my own experiments, but who knows. Maybe I'll be able to successfully bottle condition in mason jars, against the will of "all who know better". Just maybe. Maybe the extract after boil is the way to tastier brews? Maybe shaking bottles speeds up bottle conditioning? Maybe John Palmer is a follower and not somebody to follow? You just never can fully know something until you do it yourself.

Reno_eNVy said:

*sigh* Of course there is no sediment because you want to leave it behind in the secondary. He was saying you stir and then wait 15-20 minutes. It will keep stirring because (funny thing) liquid and mass and interia to keep it going.

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Right.... but again, the waiting provides no benefit, because the process I outlined works 100%.

Reno_eNVy said:

Well people have been trying to answer your questions (and by trying I mean at least 5 different people have actually answered it) but your thought process is obviously beyond our scope of undertstanding. You should probably seek advice from Mensa, then.

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I appreciate those who have taken the time to answer, but let me put it to you this way... the only real bit of persuasive evidence entered into this discussion is "experience", and maybe, just maybe my experience will lead to different results.

I think maybe one person admitted to stirring the secondary and noticing very minimal oxidation. One person hardly constitutes evidence, in my eyes.

Also, Reno.... You continued to dodge my questions about dumping in all the extract after flame out. Have you done it... yes or no?

OK, so.... pg. 26 of Yeast:

"If there is a high-enough glucose concentration, even in the presence of oxygen, yeast produce ethanol (anaerobic fermentation)....... The problem with oxygen exposure during fermentation is not the loss of ethanol, but rather the activation of metabolic pathways that produce off-flavors. For example, beer fermentations exposed to oxygen have higher concentrations of acetaldehyde, due to oxidation of ethanol into acetaldehyde."

WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST SAY SO, RENO?!?!?

good read. love the RANDOM capitalized WORDS

grndslm said:

Also, Reno.... You continued to dodge my questions about dumping in all the extract after flame out. Have you done it... yes or no?

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Jeez, didn't realize casually glacing over a question in the midst of tons of rambling would invoke the Spanish Inquisition.

Here, I'll stop "dodging" (read: basically ignoring) your question. Yes... yes I've done that, in my earlier days before I realized how much a hot break helps clarity.

i also think you are missing the role of oxygen pre- and post- fermentation, but i could have missed something earlier in the thread.

grndslm said:

OK, so.... pg. 26 of Yeast:

"If there is a high-enough glucose concentration, even in the presence of oxygen, yeast produce ethanol (anaerobic fermentation)....... The problem with oxygen exposure during fermentation is not the loss of ethanol, but rather the activation of metabolic pathways that produce off-flavors. For example, beer fermentations exposed to oxygen have higher concentrations of acetaldehyde, due to oxidation of ethanol into acetaldehyde."

WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST SAY SO, RENO?!?!?

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That fact has already been stated. Maybe not specifically about acetaldehyde but off-flavors due to oxygen exposure post-reproduction were talked about.

grndslm said:

OK, so.... pg. 26 of Yeast:

"If there is a high-enough glucose concentration, even in the presence of oxygen, yeast produce ethanol (anaerobic fermentation)....... The problem with oxygen exposure during fermentation is not the loss of ethanol, but rather the activation of metabolic pathways that produce off-flavors. For example, beer fermentations exposed to oxygen have higher concentrations of acetaldehyde, due to oxidation of ethanol into acetaldehyde."

WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST SAY SO, RENO?!?!?

Click to expand...

Actually.... if you look at the first response, yes post #2, he does talk about that.

TheBeerist said:

because of the increased risk of off-flavors due to oxygenation

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He just didn't use those exact words, but the premise was the same thing!!!

No more snarky comments, please. And no OT posts. Thanks.

grndslm said:

I have seen the 24-hr recommendation on this forum more often than I have seen any other recommendation about oxygen after pitching.

I have read that brewers will take lager carboys out and roll them on the ground to wake the yeast up.

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I wouldn't recommend (and have never seen it recommended) to add oxygen after pitching except for the biggest baddest highest OG beers. If that is the case, up to 24 hours later an additional aerating may be beneficial. Otherwise, no.

If brewers shake up their carboys with their lagers in them, they exhibiting very poor technique and I would not emulate them.

And for the record, I have never once recommended boiling hop water only and then adding all of the extract after flame out. Never. If someone chose to do that, either they misunderstood what I said or they did something on their own.

grndslm said:

Clarity comes from the yeast. The beer is very clear, it's only its initial color that was different and allowed us to see the distinct phases in fermentation.

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Wrong. Beer that may have almost no visible yeast in suspension can still be hazy. Haze proteins come about when they are too small to drop out of suspension. Hot break and cold break causes these proteins to coagulate and drop out of suspension.

grndslm said:

Sooo... technically, it is both aerobic and anaerobic, from my understanding...

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Yeast are considered anaerobic because the majority of their life-cycle takes place in an anaerobic environment. But that really doesn't matter, it's just classification nit-picking.

grndslm said:

I have seen the 24-hr recommendation on this forum more often than I have seen any other recommendation about oxygen after pitching.

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Really? Are you sure you aren't just misreading things or not quite undertstanding? I've seen many many posts recommending that you should hit it with oxygen for 30 seconds to 1 minute initially and then 24 hours after you've pitched the yeast for 30 seconds to a minute... not for the entire 24 hours. But this is only for high gravity beers.

grndslm said:

I have read that brewers will take lager carboys out and roll them on the ground to wake the yeast up.

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That would seem a bit hard for breweries with huge lagering vessels to do. If they can keep it going without rolling then we at home can probably handle it on a much smaller scale.

grndslm said:

I hear you, but I believe otherwise.

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Again, it's not my opinion. It's just what countless hours of brewing and research have come up with.

grndslm said:

Maybe I'll be able to successfully bottle condition in mason jars, against the will of "all who know better".

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Good luck with the bottle bombs. Remember, glass shrapnel has a hard time showing up on x-rays.

grndslm said:

Maybe the extract after boil is the way to tastier brews?

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Only way to find out would be to enter it into a BJCP certified competition.

grndslm said:

Maybe shaking bottles speeds up bottle conditioning?

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It doesn't and can possibly cause oxidation

grndslm said:

You just never can fully know something until you do it yourself.

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Or you could read the multitude of peer-reviewed brew journals about the topic.

grndslm said:

and maybe, just maybe my experience will lead to different results.

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Sure. But you'll probably get oxidation flavors.

I am not 100% sure where I read about the brewers who rolled the lager carboys on the ground, but I'll try to find it.

I'm definitely going to cease replying until I have finished this Yeast book, however. So...

YOU WIN!!



:cross:

For the OP, the reason stirring is successful before introducing yeast is for collecting the hot break material into the center of the Boil Kettle so you can avoid having too much of it in the fermenter.

You introduce O2 to the wort before you pitch yeast so the yeast have it to multiply. Once they've used up the O2 and started making ethanol, introducing more O2 will not be good because they yeast are no longer removing (much) of the O2 from the beer. Therefore it remains in the beer to cause oxidation flavors.

You can see how it would be wise to be as gentle when racking to secondary as reasonable is a good thing then.

Gentle stirring, or creating a whirlpool is recommended during the bottling process to completely mix the sugar with the entire volume of beer. Unfortunately there is no way to ensure this happens without some risk of introducing Oxygen without first purging the bottling bucket with CO2 (which some people do). The object is to mix gently, and only enough to get the job done. This is minimizing the risk.

I highly recommend that if you still want to continue down this path of experimentation, by all means. But then submit the final product to a BJCP competition where it can be judged in anonymity.

Finally, lots of people use late extract additions and do fine with it, but this involves some boiling, as the boiling creates the hot break that you generally want out of the fermenter. Having it in the fermenter won't visibly change the characteristics to a noticeable degree.

The change in color is not unusual in the least. It happens to most beers as the yeast multiply and then settle along with other particulate matter.

OP should name his creation Grndslm's Cardboard Ale and post it up on the recipe board.

After conferring with Tasty about this thread. His EXACT words are

Tasty said:

Post #28 sums it up for me

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Here is "post 28"

weirdboy said:

I still don't get why the OP is advocating whirlpooling before transferring into secondary. It accomplishes absolutely nothing except potentially oxidizing the beer, and if anything it stirs up sediment that would otherwise have stayed in the primary.


Also, to the OP, you clearly do not understand why people whirlpool in brewing.

The purpose of the whirlpool post-boil is that it concentrates the sediment into the center of the vessel. The sediment doesn't automatically drop out when you whirlpool, though. You whirlpool, and then you WAIT, 20 minutes or so, until the sediment has formed a nice, neat cone in the center. Then you carefully rack the liquid from the kettle. The reason you want a cone in the center is because the dip tube in your boil kettle is on the edge of the kettle, so the cone in the center keeps sediment from going into the dip tube.

When you are transferring to secondary, there is absolutely no need to whirlpool because you typically use a racking cane or autosiphon, which pulls liquid from above the sediment, which is settled across the bottom in a nice compact cake (usually).

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If you cant take advice from us, please take advice from a professional in the business. No one is saying not to push the limits of brewing but try to take into consideration the mistakes others have made before you. You are still new to brewing. Get a handle on the basics and get a few brews under your belt. No one want to see good beer go to waste and a newbie get deterred when his beer dose not turn out as planned.

Intelligence is learning from your own mistakes
Wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others

Wow.

JoeBronco said:

Intelligence is learning from your own mistakes
Wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others

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+1
Truth. Well said, JoeBronco.

grndslm said:

--- ALL I AM DOING IS ASKING QUESTIONS BASED ON MY UNDERSTANDING OF A COUPLE BOOKS AND THIS FORUM.

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can you rephrase the question?

grndslm said:

I am not 100% sure where I read about the brewers who rolled the lager carboys on the ground, but I'll try to find it.

I'm definitely going to cease replying until I have finished this Yeast book, however. So...

YOU WIN!!



:cross:

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I know the OP said he's "out" so that's fine. but something was bugging me about the color change described. During brewing this afternoon, it hit me!

The wort color will be the finished beer color. It can't get darker or lighter - except for while there are hundreds of billions of yeast in suspension and then it will get back to its original color after much of the yeast falls out and the beer clears.

If the beer darkens, and it's not attributable to the yeast falling out of suspension, it is probably due to oxidation. One of the classic signs of oxidation is a darkening of the beer.

For example, I brewed today. Here is a photo of my hydrometer sample. I'm by the light because I want to check color and clarity.



It's not a great picture, because of the light streaming in the window, but I think it illustrates my point. The beer will be this color when it is finished. It has to be. It can not be darker, and it cannot be lighter once it clears.

The OP stated that the beer went from light yellow to dark rusty. If it turns rusty or dark colored, it almost is certainly oxidation.

(Look at all that cold break in the bottom of my test jar!)

This thread has taught me the value of capitalizing random words when arguing on the internet.

@Yooper~ a thoughtful & useful reply, as ever. It seemed strange to me also, but I wouldn't have clarified the response as well.

As for the cold break, what if you swirled your test tube vigorously... (I kid! I kid!)

Allow me to answer in the simplest way possible:

grndslm said:

I guess what I really need is a 5-gallon stir plate.

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I actually have a 5-gallon stirplate, which I've tried on whole batches (doesn't cause oxidation because of positive pressure). I got it as a test unit but I believe it's sold under the name "Black Maxx".

It speeds up the fermentation of beer a bit, but that's about it. I find it mostly useful for mead.