Why are my all-around beers coming out thin?

All my all-grain batches (BIAB) are coming out to a very low FG and very thin/watery body. Based on my research, here is the info I think might matter:

1) Extract. 1.086 to 1.013. WLP500
2) Extract. 1.066 to 1.009. WLP001
3) Extract. 1.053 to 1.004. Wyeast 3711
4) AG. 1.052 to 1.005. Wyeast 1272. Mash temp 153. Mash out 170.
5) AG. 1.040 to 1.003. Wyeast 3942. Mash 150. No mash out.

Thermoworks with wire probe. Hydrometer reads 1.000 in water. I don't taste any infection. Fermentation in all cases but one was swamp cooled, keeping temp around 66.

Any thoughts? They're drinkable, but honestly my extract beers were coming out better. I'm gearing up for a big stout, and I'd be disappointed if it ended up with no body too.

I'd check the thermometer for calibrated temps. Low fg/thin/high attenuation sounds like you mashed lower than intended.

Dissolve known amount of sugar in water, and determine the expected gravity. Test with hydrometer. Do they match? Need two points to determine a linear relationship.

Post the recipes, equipment, procedure? Maybe a fermentation temp issue, over pitched starters.

I've seen this before. Pretty common on here. You need an exorcism. You need to scatter a ring of granulated garlic around the fermentor, then say 100 hail Mary's while spraying all your brewing equipment with starsan.

But seriously, looks like you're getting way too much attenuation from standard Saccharomyces yeast. You might have a wild yeast infection somewhere. My beers never get below 1.010.

My first several BIAB batches were kinda lame compared to my extract beers. I really needed to calibrate my thermometer and crush a lot finer. I use a Corona and grind almost to flour. But yeah, 1.003 seems awfully low FG. Sure your hydrometer is working properly? Testing at true room temp?


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Also -- are you checking temps through the mash, or is that starting mash temp?


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Hmm. I'm pretty careful when it comes to sanitation, so I'm having a hard time thinking of how unwelcome beasties would he getting in the mix.

What should I replace? And don't say everything! My ale pales are practically new and not scratched up yet, so I'd like to salvage those. Tubing I can replace... I can replace my thief and racking can, but the beer is infected (if that's the cause) well before they enter the mix.

Any way I can confirm infection as the cause?

ong said:

My first several BIAB batches were kinda lame compared to my extract beers. I really needed to calibrate my thermometer and crush a lot finer. I use a Corona and grind almost to flour. But yeah, 1.003 seems awfully low FG. Sure your hydrometer is working properly? Testing at true room temp?

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Thanks for the ideas! How do I calibrate my thermometer? I'm not 100% positive about my hydrometer. I'll take it into the LHBS I got it from and have them double check me.

ong said:

Also -- are you checking temps through the mash, or is that starting mash temp?

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Continuos monitoring. The temps don't drop more than a degree during the mash (I insulate the BK with a sleeping bag).

Calypso said:

How do I calibrate my thermometer?

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I bought a cheap glass lab-style spirit thermometer (0-100 degrees C) like those I used in science classes back in high school. Checked all my thermometers against it and found some were a LONG way off. Some of the dial type ones can be recalibrated by turning a nut or screw on the back. Digital ones I'm not so sure, it would depend on the model.

One of mine I just had to throw out in the end as even if I got the calibration right at low temperatures, it was off by 3 or 4 degrees at mashing temps and vice versa.

Using the glass thermometers all the time though is a PITA, they break almost as easily as hydrometers.

So I was chatting with a friend that brews, and he raised an interesting question. I've been doing full-volume boils with no sparge. Is it possible that, after I pull the grain bag out of the kettle and the wort is sitting there, that it's continuing to convert and that is leading to a lower body? My process is:

1) Fill BK with ~7.5 gallons of water.
2) Heat to strike temp (156ish).
3) Turn off heat and add voile bag.
4) Add grains and stir.
5) Cover BK and wrap in sleeping bag.
6) Every 15-20 minutes, stir.
7) At the end of mash, raise bag and let drain for a couple of minutes.
8) Put grain bag in bucket on upturned colander, allowing to drain further
9) Start burner (on about a 7-8 to prevent scorching)
10) After grain bag has drained for 5-10 minutes, squeeeeeeze, then set aside grains and dump run-off into BK.
11) Bring wort to boil over the next 30-40 minutes.

Does it seem like there is a process flaw in there somewhere that is leading to a very low FG and thin body?

Calypso said:

So I was chatting with a friend that brews, and he raised an interesting question. I've been doing full-volume boils with no sparge. Is it possible that, after I pull the grain bag out of the kettle and the wort is sitting there, that it's continuing to convert and that is leading to a lower body? My process is:

1) Fill BK with ~7.5 gallons of water.
2) Heat to strike temp (156ish).
3) Turn off heat and add voile bag.
4) Add grains and stir.
5) Cover BK and wrap in sleeping bag.
6) Every 15-20 minutes, stir.
7) At the end of mash, raise bag and let drain for a couple of minutes.
8) Put grain bag in bucket on upturned colander, allowing to drain further
9) Start wort to boil over the next 30-40 minutes.

Does it seem like there is a process flaw in there somewhere that is leading to a very low FG and thin body?

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I don't see anything wrong there. If you are getting the right OG without sparging you are OK.

Check your thermometer in crushed ice with just enough water to fill the spaces between. It should equal 32 F. Then check in boiling water. At sea level it should read 212 degrees F. If the actual temperature is low you will get a very fermentable wort and end up with the thin beer. This wouldn't show up with the extracts where you are not doing a mash.

Have you written to the experts at biabrewer.info?

I think you may be mashing at low temps, try heating your mash up to your desired mash temp after you add the grain.

shetc said:

Have you written to the experts at biabrewer.info?

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I think you will find far more experts here. This post is rather advanced for the Beginners Beer Brewing Forum, I would suggest you repost in the All Grain or BIAB area. It would also be helpful to post the grain bill and perhaps yeast used for your AG brews.

Pack as much crushed ice as you can into a plastic cup and just barely cover with water, then pack more ice in and check you thermometer, with enough ice you should get very close to 32 F. Then check temp at boil, should be 212 at sea level.

Your hydrometer should read 1.000 with distilled water, and likely very close to that with tap water.

It is definitely from low mash temps. And yes, it is continuing to convert as you wait for the grain to drain and wait for the wort to heat up to a boil.

You can fix this by doing less than a full volume mash and then adding enough boiling water to raise the temp to 170 when your mash is done. This will stop the enzymes from continuing to work while you go through your next steps leading up to the boil.

BTW, that's pretty normal for 3711.

I love social media.

I tested my thermometer - 32.5 in ice, 212.1 in boiling water. I also bought a second hydrometer and checked it against my first - both read close to 1.000. My first one might be slightly off, but no more than 0.002.

So I guess my next step is to try doing a mash-out step, and maybe start adding some CaraPils to my recipes.

To me it seems that you are mashing too low, for an undetermined reason. Do the same thing you've been doing, but 4 degrees higher. Only modify one variable at a time. Otherwise you'll get results that you can't trace.

I advise avoiding carapils as a proverbial crutch. Some brewers start religiously using it in every batch out of some sort of superstition while they should really be paying more attention to mash consistency. All-malt wort can have a heavy body even at low og with a good mash and strong fermentation.

I bet it ends up being inaccurate temp readings during the mash. Just a guess.

I didn't see you listing a mash time?

Calypso said:

So I was chatting with a friend that brews, and he raised an interesting question. I've been doing full-volume boils with no sparge. Is it possible that, after I pull the grain bag out of the kettle and the wort is sitting there, that it's continuing to convert and that is leading to a lower body? My process is:

1) Fill BK with ~7.5 gallons of water.
2) Heat to strike temp (156ish).
3) Turn off heat and add voile bag.

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I don't do BIAG, but that caught my eye as being a bit too low. Where are you getting that number from? When you put all that room temp grain in the bag you are going to drop the temp significantly. I know when I do all grain, my strike water (mash in) temps are in the high 160's when I am using a pre-heated mash tun. You might need to be closer to 160 or maybe even more depending on how much grain you are using. You want to mash at around 150 - 152 for most beers. So if you have more than 6 degree drop in temp you are undershooting your mash temps. If your 156ish is really more like 154 then it even makes it worse.


There is probably a calculator somewhere that you input grain temp, grain amount and desired mash temp and it will give you what your strike (mash in) water needs to be. I use beersmith and have yet to miss my mash temp by more than a degree.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ABOVE

I think surffisher2a is correct...I'm typically at 160 - 162 strike temp. My guess is that the OP is checking the temp immediately after mashing in, this will give you a false high mash temp. It seems to me it takes time for the temp to stabilize and also more stirring than one would think. My advice would be to mash in, stir very well and check temp., then stir well and check temp again after several minutes and this will be a more accurate mash temp.

Mash calculator here supports a higher strike temp of approx. 161
http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml

I do BIAB and I usually mash in around 155. I also do full volume mash.

I'd look at mashing a tad (1-3 deg) and maybe drop the mash out???

Deacon

With a full mash BIAB the temp doesn't drop much at mash-in. The higher water volume buffers the temp more.
You have to mash-in at a higher temp with traditional 3 vessel brewing because of the lower water volume.
I usually mash-in at 155 for a 152 mash temp with BIAB

I agree on low mash temp likely being the issue. I'd expect a pot covered with towels to drop in temp quite a bit over the course of an hour.


Can we see a recipe? What efficiency are you assuming? Are you hitting your OG?

estricklin said:

I didn't see you listing a mash time?

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They've all been 60 minutes. But like I said above, sometimes the wort sits there while I mess with the bag of grain.

surffisher2a said:

There is probably a calculator somewhere that you input grain temp, grain amount and desired mash temp and it will give you what your strike (mash in) water needs to be. I use beersmith and have yet to miss my mash temp by more than a degree.

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I used this: http://www.simplebiabcalculator.com/ and found it to be quite accurate. Like BadDeacon and singybrue say below, when you're doing a full volume, the large thermal mass isn't affected nearly as much by the grain.

BadDeacon said:

I do BIAB and I usually mash in around 155. I also do full volume mash.

I'd look at mashing a tad (1-3 deg) and maybe drop the mash out???

Deacon

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Yeah, it's sounding like, regardless of whether my thermometer is accurate or not, my mash temp is too low. But I thought that 150-153 was pretty typical for pale ales?

singybrue said:

With a full mash BIAB the temp doesn't drop much at mash-in. The higher water volume buffers the temp more.
You have to mash-in at a higher temp with traditional 3 vessel brewing because of the lower water volume.
I usually mash-in at 155 for a 152 mash temp with BIAB

Click to expand...

Weezy said:

I agree on low mash temp likely being the issue. I'd expect a pot covered with towels to drop in temp quite a bit over the course of an hour.

Can we see a recipe? What efficiency are you assuming? Are you hitting your OG?

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I measure my mash temp the entire duration. I'm wrapping the BK in a pretty well insulated sleeping bag, and the temperature drops less than 1 degree over an hour, even with occasional stirring.

I've attached the two all-grain recipes in question. The first one, the IPA, I did a less than full volume mash, with a dunk sparge step, and my efficiency was pretty bad. Like 60%. So I missed my target OG. The second one, I did a full volume mash with no mash-out and my efficiency was better. 72% and got really close on my target OG.

View attachment Zealous IPA v2.pdf

View attachment Cherry Witty Witbier.pdf

Your mash efficiency is low but not out of the ordinary if you're not double crushing...are you double crushing?
You're 6 gallons at end of boil but batch size is 5.5 gallon? Is that throw away volume accounted for in your efficiency?

But that doesn't explain the near 90% attenuation. I dont know how to explain it...some strange synergy? Over pitch + very fermentable, low OG wort? Ferm hot?

Weezy said:

Your mash efficiency is low but not out of the ordinary if you're not double crushing...are you double crushing?
You're 6 gallons at end of boil but batch size is 5.5 gallon? Is that throw away volume accounted for in your efficiency?

But that doesn't explain the near 90% attenuation. I dont know how to explain it...some strange synergy? Over pitch + very fermentable, low OG wort? Ferm hot?

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Yep, both were double crushed. But the second crushing doesn't seem to have done a whole lot. Someone on here suggested getting a Corona mill and grinding to a fine meal, so I'll look into that when I have some spare fundage.

It probably wasn't quite 6 gallons, but I allow a little extra so that I end up with 5.5 gallons in the fermenter. I think that BeerSmith includes that in the efficiency calculations.

Overpitching is a possibility - I did use starters for both of those, and in the case of the IPA, I made it assuming a OG of 1.066 but then only ended up at 1.052. Both starters were made using 1L water and 100g of DME, left on a stirplate for about 24 hours.

Fermentation on both of those was reasonably controlled - kept at about 66F (internal) for the first 5 days, then allowed to finish up at whatever temp with an ambient temp of 70F.

I've had issues with full volume BIAB batches over attenuating. I've always thought the culprit to be mash thickness but to the degree your getting not sure that's it. How long do you let the wort set after the mash again at mash temps?

Anyway I'd be willing to bet it's a little of all of the above. Do you pull the mash tun off the burner while mashing? If not do a mash out to get the wort to 168 before pulling the grain bag to deactivate the enzymes. See if that helps. Use two thermometers and check after you stir so temps aren't stratified. The mash thickness thing from what I've read shouldn't matter as much but when thin mashing if you use higher mash temps that could inadvertently deactivate alpha amylase. So be careful when mashing at higher temps.


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