Bone dry, strong Belgian pale

If anyone has tried a strong Belgian with such high attenuation, that it left your mouth puckered and begging for moisture, then you know what I mean; that is my goal, a beer so dry that it borders on wine. I'm thinking in the 9% range and at the lowest final gravity possible.

A few ideas: Obviously a low mash temperatures, perhaps a step mash starting at around 145-147, and ending around 152 before mash-out. Next a high level of adjuncts, perhaps around 20-25% grain bill, likely inverted sugar. After that, a highly attenuation yeast, such as WL550, and bottling conditioning with Brettanomyces (like Orval does). The fermentation would start in the low 60's and allow to heat via fermentation, followed by temperature control in the high 70s until final gravity is reached.

Any other ideas?

I pretty much did the same thing you are thinking of, except not as much sugar as you are thinking.

I just did a big belgian, 1.100 OG.

15.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.92 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 5.13 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2.56 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.56 %
0.25 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 1.28 %
0.25 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 1.28 %
2.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 21.9 IBU
1.00 oz Argentine Cascade [3.70 %] (15 min) Hops 4.2 IBU
1.00 oz Argentine Cascade [3.70 %] (5 min) Hops 1.7 IBU
2.00 lb Candi Sugar, Amber (75.0 SRM) Sugar 10.26 %



I mashed at 146 for 30 minutes and then 150 for an hour. I pitched on a chimay cake and it is currently sitting in 60 degrees ambient at 67 degrees......just waiting for fermentation to take off. I will let it ferment at 60 ambient for 4-5 days until it starts to wind down..then I will shake the fermenter, rouse the yeast and move it to 72-74 ambient to dry it out. I am hoping, best case to get 1.018...but would be satisfied with 1.023-1.024.

%10 ABV would be crazy. ..... I am looking for the same thing you are.

I'd ferment it higher than 72-74. If you want it dry, get it up to the mid-80s where those yeasties really like it. They're designed to work optimally at those temps. But, pitch cool, of course.

You'll need to oxygenate the heck out of it (though, too much can result in fusels, so...) I'd also consider bubbling pure O2 through a couple times DURING ferment.
Add lots of yeast nutrient.
In essence, you'll need to baby these yeast along.

In essence, get those condi

I did a light Golden Strong Ale that currently is sitting below 1.010 with an SG of 1.079 (9% ABV)... I did a step mash that consisted of the following:

10 min @ 115
20 min @ 125
20 min @ 135
75 min @ 147
20 min @ 150
15 min @ 155

79% efficiency (which isn't great for me) but it got the beer very dry using Wyeast 1388. My biggest concern using the above was keeping the mash tun from overflowing... If you do it, it may be helpful to work backward with a final volume in mind for your setup.

Also, you could potentially use Amalyse Enzyme to help dry it out (both during the mash and during the ferment after it dies down). It may not help much but it can help some.

Another couple of tips... Don't boil too long or add any sugars until after the boil is done. And, of course, the longer the boil, the more maillard reactions and/or caramelization and so the more unfermentable sugars you'll wind up with. I've been experimenting with doing 45 minute boils and, so far so good but I've not done it using Pilsner yet...

Hope that helps!

Barc said:

Don't boil too long or add any sugars until after the boil is done.

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A variation on this theme. Jamil always claims that yeast are lazy and won't fully ferment complex sugars in wort if simple sugars are present. So, I think he only adds in sugars after the primary fermentation has completely finished.

wendelgee2 said:

A variation on this theme. Jamil always claims that yeast are lazy and won't fully ferment complex sugars in wort if simple sugars are present. So, I think he only adds in sugars after the primary fermentation has completely finished.

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Not to discount what he says, as I've yet to write a book or host a podcast so I'm sure he is more in the know that I am, but I've never had a problem putting them in at the end of the boil. I've done this several times and never had problems. I could agree, however, if your SG is very high or if they are a significant portion of your grist (say over 25%) you could run into problems, stuck fermentation being a likely one.

I don't think yeast get "lazy" but, I would agree, they're offspring can have a dominant trait of consuming simple sugars as opposed to more complex sugars (i.e. sucrose, glucose, fructose vs. maltose). That could provide a problem if the fermentation is extended (i.e. a high SG) and the simple sugar yeasts dominate and cause a stuck fermentation since the yeasts that prefer maltose may already be dormant, dead, or otherwise insufficient in quantity to finish the beer. I'd argue, however, 90% of the time, most worts are low enough in gravity and finish quickly enough so that it isn't a problem... Belgian breweries, including Trappist breweries, prove time and time again that dumping massive amounts of plain sugar into a wort can still provide a finished beer without stuck fermentation. Of course, some of them have a lot of technology on their side. This may also be due to the strain of yeast used and may be more to the point.

Brilliant everyone. I'm taking notes.

I mentioned using Brettanomyces for bottling conditioning which supposedly has the potential of increasing the abv by another 1/2%, as the bugs eat away at unfermentables. Does anyone have any experience with this process? I've only read about it vaguely from Brewing Like a Monk. How would this effect the carbonation?

I did a saison much like you describe last summer. Finished right about 1.000 for just under 9% abv. It's supa-superdry and you can't tell it has that much alcohol in it so it sneaks right up on you. I used my mash temps and a lb of sugar to dry it out. The 3711 saison yeast certainly helped. It's a monster.

I concur, Saison yeast is another good one to dry a beer out.

I am determined to remain

Barc said:

I've never had a problem putting them in at the end of the boil.

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I don't think he was saying it would cause a stuck ferment. I think what he's saying is that adding it post ferment might knock another couple points off the fg. I don't think this is meant to be night and day. I still add sugar to the end of the boil, and I haven't had a stuck ferment either. But, the op is looking for tips and tricks to dry things out even more, and maybe this is a technique that could shave a few points off. Personally, I've never done side-by-side tests, so I toss it out there not knowing what the heck I'm talking about.

Barc said:

I don't think yeast get "lazy" but, I would agree, they're offspring can have a dominant trait of consuming simple sugars as opposed to more complex sugars (i.e. sucrose, glucose, fructose vs. maltose).

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As far as I remember, it's not a generational thing, it's a metabolic pathways thing. Meaning, yeast will eat the most readily available food first, and then they'll start to chomp on tougher customers. So, it's not that they get lazy, it's that they might "ruin their dinner" with sweets.

But again, I think this is a fine fine point and it's definitely not going to take you from ending at 1.020 to ending at 1.010.

Brewster2256 said:

If anyone has tried a strong Belgian with such high attenuation, that it left your mouth puckered and begging for moisture, then you know what I mean; that is my goal, a beer so dry that it borders on wine. I'm thinking in the 9% range and at the lowest final gravity possible.

A few ideas: Obviously a low mash temperatures, perhaps a step mash starting at around 145-147, and ending around 152 before mash-out. Next a high level of adjuncts, perhaps around 20-25% grain bill, likely inverted sugar. After that, a highly attenuation yeast, such as WL550, and bottling conditioning with Brettanomyces (like Orval does). The fermentation would start in the low 60's and allow to heat via fermentation, followed by temperature control in the high 70s until final gravity is reached.

Any other ideas?

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Lots of belgian beer finished with brett, or a sour blend finishes VERY VERY dry. I'm drinking a flanders red right now thats quite dry... but extremely refreshing!!!

Brewster2256 said:

I mentioned using Brettanomyces for bottling conditioning which supposedly has the potential of increasing the abv by another 1/2%, as the bugs eat away at unfermentables. Does anyone have any experience with this process? I've only read about it vaguely from Brewing Like a Monk. How would this effect the carbonation?

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Brett is another form of yeast that will breakdown sugar, but it takes a long time and typically can't do it alone. I have a beer that started (FG rather) at 3.5 plato or 1.014 and it has only gotten to 1.012 after five months with Brett, Lacto and Pedio. I mashed it at 153 in order to try and keep some sugar for the bugs to eat, but to get it dry enough that if the bugs didn't work like I wanted it wouldn't be a problem.

Sugar can be added to the end of the boil without problem. Make sure that you are pitching a healthy quantity of yeast. People run into problems with high gravity beers and fully attenuating because they are severely underpitching. If anything, overpitch a higher gravity beer.

That all said, I find that getting 20% sugar and the rest being Pilsner Malt and a touch of crystals. That makes for a highly attenuative beer that will dry out quite a bit and still be somewhat malty. I just tasted a tripel that got down to 1.005 and it was plenty dry, believe me!

In the end, bottle conditioning with Brett just to try and lower your final final gravity, you better have a beer that can last for a long long time in order to get it lower in gravity and sparkling to boot.

Good luck for you though.

I'd personally be weary of inoculating with brett, then bottling. You're asking for bombs unless you are putting this beer in thick walled belgian bottles with corks and cages.

I am looking for some Brett flavor, as well as the dryness which it would impart. I am definitely worried about bottle bombs, and it's something I'm going to work out, either by, as you said, using thick walled Belgian bottles, or by limiting the amount of available sugars for the yeast (cutting the priming sugar in half?). Otherwise, I may inoculate the secondary with brett, rather than bottle conditioning and allowing it to sit for several months until activity has slowed, before bottling with additional yeast and priming sugar.

It also seems that by creating a large brett starter, I can reduce the amount of time necessary for complete attenuation, and hopefully have a drinkable beer within 6 months; something akin to Orval, but stronger.

Anyone know the alcohol tolerance of Brett?

Brett is like normal yeast when added alone. I really would either ferment with it or use it only as a bottle conditioning yeast. Unless you are making 20 gallons, five gallons can easily be drank within a year. I would bottle with the normal 4-5oz of priming sugar for 5 gallons, and bottle in champagne glass. That way the 2+ vols that you are priming too can go all the way to a potential 4+ without worrying. I don't think it would though because Brett by itself has trouble breaking down the sugar into a simple sugar.

Jamil also suggests Beano in the mash, which has been debated around here a few times. Also, if you have to use extract, then re-mash your extract with your grains. I did this, plus the Beano, plus a temp schedule that ended at about 80F at the end of fermentation and it took 1.078 down to near 1.006. I had a huge starter too, and there was a pound or so of sucrose in the boil.

Using Beano in the mash is much different than using it during fermentation, which is what most folks will tell you not to do. The reason is, primarily, Beano's enzymes will break down during the boil, much the same as Amalyse enzyme (you can also add AE during the mash instead of Beano and save yourself some $$). The difference between AE and Beano, when added to the fermentation, is that Beano will continue to break down sugars that AE won't break down and the yeast will continue to eat for a LONG time potentially causing bottle bombs and/or "overly" dry beer.

Remashing extract should result in a more fermentable wort. The reason is the fact that most extracts are made such that they can be made into "any" beer. As we know, we can mash grists from ~145 all the way up to 160 and have worts that will provide anywhere from a very fermentable wort to one with a lot of unfermentables depending on the style. Extract is made right in the middle so it provides a middle-of-the-road amount of unfermentables. For those trying to dry out a beer, allowing more enzymes to work on it should provide for more fermentables being extracted. So, adding AE (or Beano) to a wort (or beer) with a lot of sugars obtained from extracts should bring the FG down.

Mash at 145 for two or three hours

babalu87 said:

Mash at 145 for two or three hours

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Oddly enough I just found this article that seems to say that there are no advantages, from a fermentability standpoint, of a longer mash...according to this article that can actually backfire on you

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_Time_Dependency_of_Wort_Fermentability

permo said:

Oddly enough I just found this article that seems to say that there are no advantages, from a fermentability standpoint, of a longer mash...according to this article that can actually backfire on you

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_Time_Dependency_of_Wort_Fermentability

Click to expand...

It's kind of late but from my reading this is apples and oranges. At the higher temperature most of the conversion could have been done in the time it dropped to 152 F.

So I brewed the beer about 2 weeks ago, and I'm pleasantly surprised by the results.

This was my recipe

9.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 75.0 %
3.00 lb Inverted Sugar, Clear (0.5 SRM) Sugar 25.0 %
WLP545 Belgian Strong Ale Yeast (no starter)

The sugar was added in increments of 1Lb, with each addition accompanied by yeast nutrient and diammonium Phosphate, and a quick shake of the carboy. The additions were made after the previous fermentations began to slow.

I intentionally allowed the yeast to ferment hot (75F-80F), for maximum attenuation.

Measured Original Gravity: 1.074 SG
Current Gravity: 1.002 SG (9.4% alcohol by volume)

It is still in primary fermentation at 13 days, with an active but slow ongoing fermentation. Tomorrow I'm switching it to secondary and will create an Orval-dreg starter in order to expose the Belgian to Brettanomyces and try to subtract a couple more points from an already extremely dry beer.

Any thoughts?

the temperature is sure the key to getting the extreme attenuation. I have a 1.085 OG tripel that started at 65 a week and a half ago an has been inching upward and just hi 82 degrees this morning. I am fully expecting 1.008 or lower as my FG on this one....also the CO2 coming out of the airlock smells like a fruit basket. The key is to not let it rise to temp to quickly, and finish it up warm....oh...and incremenatal adding of sugar.

I wouldn't mess with the Brett either....your beer is plenty flavorful and plenty dry.