I screwed up my Dopplebock and am not sure how to fix it...

I'll try to keep this short...

I brewed a Dopplebock using White Labs 810 San Francisco Lager, as I have no lagering equipment.

My mash efficiency was terrible (You may see this thread for further explanation) and so I added some DME and some sugar(s) to recover my OG...

...but then I screwed up THAT calculation as well. As a result, my OG went from a target of 1.1 to 1.12 and my ABV (estimate) went from 9.3 to 12.8!

Here's the problem - the yeast has had a bit too much to drink. My FG right now is 1.035 when it should be down around 1.025. My ABV right now is 11.3%. The problem is two-fold - the beer is probably still too "sweet" - 1.035 is a Woodchuck Draft Cider. Secondly, if the yeast is already too drunk to perform (and who of us haven't been there?!) then it won't be able to bottle carb. I have been letting this beer sit for a few weeks and the gravity hasn't changed now in ~10 days. I think it is what it is at this point.

I see three potential solutions to my problem:

1) Dump it. Don't really want to do this, as even I'm curious how it'll taste...
2) Live with it at 1.035, and use some sort of carbonation tabs to bottle carb the beer, but I don't know if carbonation tabs are just sugar that still relies on the yeast... (Can someone tell me?)
Kegging is currently not an option for many reasons, unfortunately, as this would work quite well...
3) I can use a different yeast with a similar attenuation range and higher alcohol tolerance to "finish" the beer. Yes this will screw up my "style" and add some unintended flavors, but we ALL know that it's those crazy beers that win competitions anyways! My research shows that White Labs 037 "Yorkshire Square Ale Yeast" fits this criteria while still being "close" to the flavor profile I already intended (verses for example using a stout-type yeast). To make this work I would use a starter to get the yeast active before dunking them into an 11% alcohol wort...

So - all that being said, what do you guys recommend?

I would go with a starter of a clean ale yeast that won't add any character to the beer. Be sure to add it at high krausen to make sure the yeast is working hard when you add it to the nasty environment. WLP090 would be my choice (don't use WLP099).

I have a doppelbock that ended at 024. If you can get there, I think you will be in much better shape.

Have you tried increasing the temp? Get those new yeasties really going strong before you dump them. Nutrient, step the starter, etc.

daksin - my only concern is that the 090 has a much higher attenuation than the 810, so I'd be afraid of dropping BELOW 1.025 and taking my ABV even higher... However, the higher alcohol might knock out that yeast as well, leaving only bottle-carbing as a concern.

adamc - 1.025 was the plan, and yes I agree if I can get there, I might have an OK tasting beer.

INcreasing the temp?? I was thinking of DEcreasing the temp since 810 is a lager strain (and plus, I have enough fruity esters in this thing already... I've been tasting the gravity sampler - wowzers...)

We're supposed to have some cold temps this week and I was going to stick the fermenter out in the garage or even out on the deck... Still don't know how I'll bottle-carb it though.

But if you think warmer will work, I'll gladly try it - it's much easier for me to warm the beer than it is for me to cool it...

If you started at 1.120 like you say, then you don't have a ton of fermentables left to go, and alcohol is limiting your yeast. The beer won't dry out completely like it might with 099. Remember, Apparent attenuation is only a guideline. A 1.120 beer attenuating 70% is much more impressive than a 1.030 beer attenuating 85%.

I don't entirely understand, but I trust that you know what you're talking about. My understanding is that a higher attenuation yeast can grab sugars that a lower attenuation yeast can't. I figured using a new yeast with the same attenuation as the original would only grab what the previous yeast wasn't able to get because of passing out from the alcohol. A higher attenuation yeast than the original would grab not only the sugars that the original yeast couldn't get to but additional sugars that the original yeast wouldn't have grabbed to begin with.

I welcome you to correct my misunderstanding. I do agree that using a very neutral yeast would be preferred, and of course that it needs to have a higher alcohol tolerance and that I would need to use a starter.

Thanks.

I vote for daksin's advice.

035/120 = 29. So you are at 71% already.
And just wonder whether is would be wiser to add the starter to maybe 1 or 2 gallons of your 71% attenuated Dopplebock first to acclimatize, followed by the rest once it takes off?

Even diluting that first gallon to 80% to make it more accessible to the WLP090 won't kill your beer either.

Flooding the FV's headspace with CO2 would help to prevent oxidation.

Also, if your second yeast tank because of alcohol tolerance, you can bottle condition with champagne yeast. The carb tabs are just sugar--you still need yeast to eat the sugar.

carb tabs contain nothing but sugar. no yeast in there. the beer needs to provide the yeast.

i would suggest going with a high-gravity yeast like the 099. it won't take you down to 1.001... you'll be adding it to an unhospitable environment. yeast like 099 can reach 15% or more when babied from the start (huge pitch, lots of oxygen, stepped sugar feedings, etc) - not when dumped into a toxic enviro. you'll be fine. i'd be surprised if you hit 1.025. more on 099: http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_super.html. the 037 likely won't do a thing in an 11% enviro. i doubt they would munch more than a point before going into survival mode and hibernating.

i believe that 037 is a seasonal/special issue strain. doesn't appear to be available at the moment.

I figured so on the carb tabs.

I should mention that this is only a 2.5 gallon batch. That 099 looks like serious homework. I like the 090 idea.

I still don't understand how the 035/120 math works. If this was a cider at 120, ANY yeast would get it down to 1.000, regardless of the attenuation, at least until the yeasties got drunk. And if it were comprised of lactose, it would barely ferment at all.

Am I misunderstanding something?

Don't get me wrong - I appreciate the advise. I just feel more confused now...

ViperMan said:

That 099 looks like serious homework. I like the 090 idea.

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nah, the 099 is serious only if you want to get up to 15% or more. on the other hand, it's probably the only yeast that will get you that high (if you baby-sit it). other yeasts won't get you there no matter what you do. so it's not like 099 is high-maintenance so i'll use 090 instead... not that 090 is a bad choice either.

ViperMan said:

I still don't understand how the 035/120 math works. If this was a cider at 120, ANY yeast would get it down to 1.000, regardless of the attenuation, at least until the yeasties got drunk. And if it were comprised of lactose, it would barely ferment at all.

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i don't quite understand your question but maybe this will help: different yeasts have different abilities to consume different sugars and tolerate different alcohol levels. if a yeast isn't alcohol tolerant, it might stop fermenting (for example) at 10% ABV no matter how much easily fermentable sugar is left. a high-gravity yeast might keep on cruising to 15% or more, assuming you've met its other requirements (oxygen, nutrients, cell count, etc).

a different scenario: you have a nice, medium-gravity wort (say 1.050). one yeast will much it down to 1.012, and another will take it down to 1.005 under the exact same conditions. why? because yeast #2, the high attenuator, can ferment sugars that yeast #1 couldn't. an example of such a low attenuating yeast would be classic english yeast such as 002, S-04, etc. 3711 French Saison is a classic example of a high attenuator - it'll munch through just about anything leaving you with a very dry beer. so your statement "ANY yeast would get it down to 1.000, regardless of the attenuation" is incorrect. a classic english yeast might crap out somewhere around 1.028 while the 3711 might stop at 1.010. in both cases there are still sugars left, it just so happens that the 3711 can munch through more sugars than the english (but still not all of them, hence the 10 remaining gravity points).

not sure if this helped answer your question(s)...

I might get flamed here but why can't you dilute it down with clean bottled water. Calculate what you should add to get to your original planned og or even just half way there. Even just .25 gallons might be enough to bring down the sg and alcohol levels to get the yeast working again a nd reduce yhe sweetness. The only thing to condider here would be the reduction in ibus.

Did some math for you... I think you said it was a 2.5 gallon batch. .5 gallons water would theoretically give you an OG of 1.100. It will also instantely bring your SG down to 1.029 and reduce your alcohol from 11.20 to 9.36. At 9.36% alcohol, your yeast might be able to get back to work.

If you add an ale yeast, you may need to increase the temp.

captainL said:

I might get flamed here but why can't you dilute it down with clean bottled water. Calculate what you should add to get to your original planned og or even just half way there. Even just .25 gallons might be enough to bring down the sg and alcohol levels to get the yeast working again a nd reduce yhe sweetness. The only thing to condider here would be the reduction in ibus.

Did some math for you... I think you said it was a 2.5 gallon batch. .5 gallons water would theoretically give you an OG of 1.100. It will also instantely bring your SG down to 1.029 and reduce your alcohol from 11.20 to 9.36. At 9.36% alcohol, your yeast might be able to get back to work.

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I uh, I like this idea... I'm not even against boiling that water (which I should do anyways) with some leftover hops to maintain the IBU level...

Thoughts? PS - my LHBS store has neither 090 nor 099... I could have some shipped, but I'm not sure this beer is worth the extra $20...

sweetcell said:

nah, the 099 is serious only if you want to get up to 15% or more. on the other hand, it's probably the only yeast that will get you that high (if you baby-sit it). other yeasts won't get you there no matter what you do. so it's not like 099 is high-maintenance so i'll use 090 instead... not that 090 is a bad choice either.



i don't quite understand your question but maybe this will help: different yeasts have different abilities to consume different sugars and tolerate different alcohol levels. if a yeast isn't alcohol tolerant, it might stop fermenting (for example) at 10% ABV no matter how much easily fermentable sugar is left. a high-gravity yeast might keep on cruising to 15% or more, assuming you've met its other requirements (oxygen, nutrients, cell count, etc).

a different scenario: you have a nice, medium-gravity wort (say 1.050). one yeast will much it down to 1.012, and another will take it down to 1.005 under the exact same conditions. why? because yeast #2, the high ... still sugars left, it just so happens that the 3711 can munch through more sugars than the english (but still not all of them, hence the 10 remaining gravity points).

not sure if this helped answer your question(s)...

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Cider is composed of 100% simple sugars which any yeast will eat. That's why ciders dry out to 1.00x with S04. S04 craps out on some of the complex sugars in wort, but these are not present in cider. This is a beer, not a cider, so it's not gonna dry out that much.

I'm going to try CaptainL's idea (no offense to daksin or anyone else, but I hate paying 3x the price to ship a $7 vial of yeast...) Plus, I like the idea of diluting this beer more than I do the idea of fermenting it further. The stuff in my test-sample tastes very, very offensive...

I also think I'm going to take the opportunity to up my IBU's a bit, as I didn't really adjust properly when I dumped in the extra sugars to begin with.

I dug around the internet and found some decent math. Of course, a lot of people suggest IsoHop extract, but my LHBS doesn't have it, nor does any other shop on the internet from what I can see... It's on back-order.

SO, I'm going to make a .5-gallon "wort" with 3.5 ounces of light DME and .2 ounces of Hallertauer (which I used originally.) Per Beersmith this will give me 42 IBU's which should blend with the existing 15.8 IBU's to give me a 20 IBU average (15.8 x 5 + 42 = 121 / 6 = 20). I'm going to boil .6 or .7 gallons with a lid on for an hour to minimize boil-off. This will give me about a 1.019 wort, which only adds <4 points to the entire mix. Final gravity should be about 10.9.

POSSIBLE IDEA: I could dump this "wort" into my bottling bucket (cooled, of course) and then rack right on top of it and bottle the SOB. According to Beersmith I'd need 3.5 ounces of DME to carbonate the beer anyways, so this could work perfectly. That way I prevent adding MORE sugar when bottling, maintain my "beer flavor" while diluting and hell, it'll help promote the dopplebock style foamy head anyways!

A bit of work, sure, but no more work than making starters and trying to get another yeast to kick in. This is of course assuming that the original yeast would wake back up...

If not, well then I'm back to option A - dump it and try again.

All good and well, but you're still going to end up with the same sweet beer, except it will now be diluted a little (.5 gal in 5 gal = 10%).

Plus you're intending to add even more (new) fermentables that may or may not ferment, given the fact the yeast has called it a day. I hope for you that the fresh malt doesn't wake the yeast up for whatever reason and make you High Gravity bottle bombs.

You could make a strong hop tea by boiling hops in water instead of wort, or in a very light wort, to make a bitterness/flavor potion you envision will ultimately balance your beer. I've made hop teas and never used any DME with them. Worked wonderfully. There are some readings that suggest a light wort helps in hops extraction, but I've never heard the final word on that.

Use regular sanitation practices.

Aside from that, I thought you wanted to attenuate it more to get it less sweet. And the only way to do just that, is with some sort of resuscitated fermentation.

IslandLizard said:

All good and well, but you're still going to end up with the same sweet beer, except it will now be diluted a little (.5 gal in 5 gal = 10%).

Plus you're intending to add even more (new) fermentables that may or may not ferment, given the fact the yeast has called it a day. I hope for you that the fresh malt doesn't wake the yeast up for whatever reason and make you High Gravity bottle bombs.

You could make a strong hop tea by boiling hops in water instead of wort, or in a very light wort, to make a bitterness/flavor potion you envision will ultimately balance your beer. I've made hop teas and never used any DME with them. Worked wonderfully. There are some readings that suggest a light wort helps in hops extraction, but I've never heard the final word on that.

Use regular sanitation practices.

Aside from that, I thought you wanted to attenuate it more to get it less sweet. And the only way to do just that, is with some sort of resuscitated fermentation.

Click to expand...

Yeah it's getting complicated for me to think from all the various angles...

There MIGHT still be fermentable sugar left... So thinning the alcohol (by diluting) MIGHT let the yeast get back to work, since my FG is not where the math says it should be... So then yes, not only would it eat the new DME, but it'd eat what it didn't get to, sending pressures too high. I'll agree with you there.

BUT it might still work in that even with the added DME, my estimated FG drops .04 points, and my ABV drops almost 2%. This MIGHT allow the yeast to wake up, finish up, and still have enough staying power left to bottle carb. Only question is will the yeast actually revive... Do I set off a tiny alarm clock or something...?

So I won't bottle-carb with it. I'll make my dilution "wort", add to my FV, pull off a fresh sample and take measurements, then watch it and see what happens.

**EDIT** - Reread the idea about hop-tea without DME - I too read the same stuff, that adding some sugar helps, but I'm going to hope that it doesn't matter, and leave out the DME. That way I'm just diluting my alcohol and hopefully letting the yeast "wrap things up." If not, then I can revisit the idea of adding a new yeast or just say "fuggit" and start over again.

Sounds like a plan. Let ids know how it turns out.

Alright, well so far after some quick recalcs I used .2 oz of hops and boiled for 40 minutes to get my 41 IBU's (the above math was using water loss to trub and chiller, which doesn't really apply here.) I strained the water, then dumped into a fresh bucket and racked my beer into it. I took a new sample and of course had to give a taste... ...it was pretty good (the old sample was barely drinkable - I nearly gagged on it...) Only fear is that the new sample is reading at 1.043... The old sample (which I'll admit I forgot to check again) was last read at 1.036. I can't imagine why they'd read different... I didn't use ANY other ingredient in my hop tea except the hops, and I used RO water too. Still, the new sample tasted pretty good - nice hop balance against the current sweetness, and the alcohol wasn't nearly as dominant.

I'm going to give this another week or so, see what it does, and then go ahead and get it bottle conditioning. I'll be sure to keep this thread up-to-date.

Why did you rack it off your (dormant) yeast cake?
You could have just added the hop tea to the existing beer.

2 things:

1. You are not allowed to dump this batch. We need to know the end result.
2. So much time has been spent on this batch. You'll have to drink it one way or another.
3. I'll stop making additional suggestions. They seem to branch out into new complications.
4. Go back to 1.

The beer had been in Primary for quite a while and I was a bit concerned about whatever that fancy term is for "off-flavor in beer from sitting on yeast cake for too long..."

However, trust me, plenty of it got into the secondary - it wasn't my best racking job...

1. Agreed.
2. Agreed.
3. Agreed.
4. Okay now I'm confused...

Hmm, well, so far, I got diddly... Nothing. Gravity hasn't budged, and it's been four days.

I've ordered the WLP090 - ya know, since I'm not allowed to dump this now.

By the time it gets here and I'm able to use it (with a starter), it'll be about 10 days since I diluted it. If I see activity by then I'll hold off on the 090. If not, in it goes.

I feel like adding a poll to this thread: "How do you think it'll taste: Best-In-Show Delicious, Bad but Drinkable, You'll never hand out more than one, or Wouldn't feed to my neighbor's annoying dog..."

I'm making an exception to 3.

Until that arrives, and if you then indeed decide to go ahead with WLP090, remember to make a large starter of that vial. You'll need lots of strong and healthy yeast cells to resuscitate that fermentation. Just dumping in the vial will do nothing. It's way too hostile in there.

I hope another member can give you some extra detailed guidance how to tackle this brew exactly.

P.S. Those 2 things I mentioned before were in jest, like that.

IslandLizard said:

I'm making an exception to 3.
P.S. Those 2 things I mentioned before were in jest, like that.

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I know.

And yeup on the starter. I'll probably go with a good 3 liters - should double the cell count. That's pitching 200 billion cells into a 3-gallon wort/beer - that should do it. Plus remember that I don't want the FULL attenuation from the 090 if I can help it. It'll make the beer too dry.

I'll continue to share my progress.

I think you'll need way more than 200 Giga cells in your 2.5Gals. 2- or even 3-step starter. This is not a regular wort, it is high alcohol beer.

I hope someone yeast savvy can give you the exact approach. Time of pitching should be at high krausen IIRC, but I don't know how to get just the yeast at that point without the additional starter beer.

ViperMan said:

Plus remember that I don't want the FULL attenuation from the 090 if I can help it. It'll make the beer too dry.

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i'm pretty sure you do want as much attenuation as you can get from second yeast. attenuation numbers that the manufacturer posts in its website are best-case estimates, and you're not pitching the yeast into ideal conditions. i wouldn't worry about over-attenuation.

IslandLizard said:

I think you'll need way more than 200 Giga cells in your 2.5Gals. 2- or even 3-step starter. This is not a regular wort, it is high alcohol beer.

I hope someone yeast savvy can give you the exact approach. Time of pitching should be at high krausen IIRC, but I don't know how to get just the yeast at that point without the additional starter beer.

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No idea how to step-start... Does that require a manual transmission...?

No idea what "high krausen" is... I'm not even sure we have a new Pope yet...

(lol)

WELL, on a whim I popped the lid on my fermenter and discovered that it hasn't resumed fermenting at ALL. I have no idea why the small satellite bottle started working and the big bucket didn't. Regardless, I've pitched the San Diego yeast. I've brought the bucket upstairs and its sitting in a 70-degree room. Wish me luck...

ViperMan said:

No idea how to step-start... Does that require a manual transmission...?

No idea what "high krausen" is... I'm not even sure we have a new Pope yet...

(lol)

Click to expand...

step starter, AKA stepping up: making several starter, each bigger than the previous, to get to the desire yeast population. there is a limit to how much growth you can get out of a starter, so if you need a lot of yeast or you are starting with a small population, you need to build up in steps. an example is harvesting yeast from a bottle of commercial beer. you can't just pitch the dregs into a 2 liter starter and expect massive growth. instead you should start with 100 ml of starter, let that ferment, then make a 500 ml starter, let ferment, cold crash, decant spent wort, and finally make a 2 liter starter.

high krausen: krausen is the white foam that appears on the surface of beer during fermentation. so "high krausen" is when the foam is at its highest - AKA the peak of fermentation. you want the yeast to be active and in chomping mode before adding it to an environment that contains alcohol.

i take it that you didn't make a starter with the san diego? you just pitched it directly? should still work but won't be as effective.

sweetcell said:

step starter, AKA stepping up: making several starter, each bigger than the previous, to get to the desire yeast population. there is a limit to how much growth you can get out of a starter, so if you need a lot of yeast or you are starting with a small population, you need to build up in steps. an example is harvesting yeast from a bottle of commercial beer. you can't just pitch the dregs into a 2 liter starter and expect massive growth. instead you should start with 100 ml of starter, let that ferment, then make a 500 ml starter, let ferment, cold crash, decant spent wort, and finally make a 2 liter starter.

high krausen: krausen is the white foam that appears on the surface of beer during fermentation. so "high krausen" is when the foam is at its highest - AKA the peak of fermentation. you want the yeast to be active and in chomping mode before adding it to an environment that contains alcohol.

i take it that you didn't make a starter with the san diego? you just pitched it directly? should still work but won't be as effective.

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I gotcha on both counts. I read that you CAN generally get a pretty decent doubling of your yeast with a 3L starter, but that from there you're better off "stepping". That being said (or read?) I DID make a 3L starter of the San Diego yeast. I can also say with confidence that there was at LEAST twice the "goop" at the bottom as there is in a vial of White Labs. Unfortunately I was not able to pitch at high priestess... I mean krausen (lol again) because I THOUGHT my original yeast was coming back to life. So I cold-crashed it for about 2 days until yesterday when I realized my satellite fermenter was lying to me...

Seriously - any idea why the small bottle (a repurposed 8oz apple juice bottle - SANITIZED before use...) would show yeast activity and the 3-gallon FV does not?? I mean I had new trub in the bottom and everything... The FV's OG did not BUDGE since I diluted... SO weird!!

...anyways, this morning in a perfect 70-degree environment both my mini-bottle (I pulled out a new sample after pitching) and fermenter are fermenting actively. I've read this San Diego acts quickly, so I'm hoping I can bottle by next weekend. I also suspect the San Diego will have no problem bottle-carbing. I just wonder how long it'll take to settle out for the beer to be drinkable...

PS - laughing at the voting results. I voted for "no one will ask for another."

Quick update: WLP090 has dropped it down to 1.028 so far. It's slowing but still bubbling. The sample tastes pretty good but WOW is it boozy...

glad to hear that the 090 is working.

ViperMan said:

The sample tastes pretty good but WOW is it boozy...

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your OG was 1.120 - what did you expect?!?

I know, I know... I think I might try redoing this beer in a 1-gallon micro batch later this summer, just to see what it "could have been."

IslandLizard said:

All good and well, but you're still going to end up with the same sweet beer, except it will now be diluted a little (.5 gal in 5 gal = 10%).

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Uh, no...that's not how it works.

The sugars will also be diluted. Does a 50% solution of sugar taste the same as a 25% solution of sugar?


Diluting will effectively lower the FG and help reduce the sweetness of the beer. Commercial breweries dilute their beer all the time, on purpose, to hit their targets.


By adding .5 gallons, the FG will go from 1.035 to 1.029. Still a bit high, but diluting a bit more to 3.5 gallons from 2.5 gallons would take it to 1.025.


35 x 2.5 / 3.5 = 25 ==> 1.025

This will also reduce the ABV. It will still be pretty boozy, though. I mean really you should be lagering this thing for a few months before drinking it anyway.
But the OP doesn't even need to take my word for it. They can try this out by pulling a small 4.25oz (hydrometer-sized) sample and diluting it to 6oz, then tasting it to see if it's still as sweet. Be sure to stir it up a bit and maybe give it 15-20 minutes before tasting, to be sure it's homogeneous. In fact, take two 4.25oz samples and dilute one, then compare them side-by-side.

If you want to then try 1.020 then dilute it a bit more by adding another ounce or so of water to your 1.025 sample.

I had considered diluting more, but I think one thing that we never really discuss is the FLAVOR of the beer... I mean, dilute a soda (say by adding ice and then letting it melt) and it tastes like crap. So whereas diluting the beer would help the "numbers" work out better, it'd also dilute that yummy "liquid grain" taste which quite frankly wasn't that great to begin with, thanks to my miserable efficiency to start with. Most of my sugar in this beer is from actual sugar, so I didn't want to dilute to a point that the actual grain flavors take two much of a backseat.

I'm really hoping I can get this beer bottled by the middle of this week...

Yes a soda tastes like crap because it's supposed to be sweet and by adding a bunch of water you're diluting the sweetness (what you WANT to do in the beer). I don't know about what most of your sugar in the beer is, but most of it appears not to be fermentable, so it's leaving that residual sweetness. I have seen people talking about 10-11% being too high or whatever due to alcohol tolerance, but I have made high alcohol beers with the same strains of yeast that I see people here on HBT claiming cannot handle it. I made a 15%+ mead with bread yeast from Costco.


Seriously, just try it with a small hydrometer sample. What have you got to lose?

Sample is down to 1.021 and is holding steady. I had to delay my tasting event due to a family member having a medical procedure, so it buys me the rest of this week to let it settle before I bottle it. With the dilution, my ABV is actually down to about 9.6%. I like the taste of the sample and am anxious to get it carbonated.

What a work in progress!! Keep us updated