full boil extract

It was my b-day last week anyways got a completely stainless steel turkey fryer and pot to start doing full boils! (sweet)
I am still doing extract and will do a few batches for sure, (plan on doing all grain sometime just have to research more and get the coolers and get them ready)

Anyways I will be making ro purchasing a wort chiller (have to go price out copper and see if it is worth making one than buying). With full extract boils I have heard your hop utilization can go up by 10 to 20 percent, so you have to adjust your hops especially if you buy a kit. Has anyone did this before or NOT did this before.
If it is like a 10 percent more bitter beer I donth think I would mind but 20 may be getting up there and I am worried about other bitterness and flavor changes.

Anyone move to full boils for extract brew have any tips on the hop utilization?
Or when doing full boils any type of late extract additions to make the beer even lighter in color?
I have never heard about late extract on a full boil but was curious what you guys though about adding maybe half and then the other half towards the end on a full boil, or would that be a bad idea?

My son-in-law brews kits (well, I kind of do them for him - he just likes the beer).

Yes, you will get greater utilization with a full vs. partial boil.

As the gravity goes up, the solution's ability to absorb more dissolved solids decreases.

Also, an analogy: You have a dirty dish and have 1 tbl water to clean it. OR, you have a gallon of water to clean it. The more water, the more solids can be dissolved in it.

I posted last winter about my Dead Guy clone, once the "regular" extract way and once with a full boil or late extract addition. The differences were quite remarkable- a 2.5 gallon boil gave me 15 IBUs; a 3.5 gallon boil gave 21 IBUs, and the full boil was 31 IBUs. I did not know this at the time- but I DID post that the second brew was "twice as bitter" to my unsophisticated palate. When I ran the numbers, that's when I discovered that it really WAS twice as bitter!

If you have brewing software, you can adjust the IBUs accordingly. In Beersmith, you can click "full boil" and it will give you the IBUs that way, and then do the same recipe with a "2 gallon boil" or "3 gallon boil" and it will give you the IBUs then too. That's the easy, uncomplicated way to figure hops utilization.

so it was twice as bitter....I have heard tons of different things on this that it will be much more bitter and some say that it is not a huge difference so dont worry about it.

I am just starting to play around with some beer programs..I am on a mac so there is only a couple available to me. I was playing around this morning and the same exact recipe was getting way different OG and FG's IBU's, and Color so I dont know what was going on in those

But with a full boils is it a good idea to do a late extract addition with a full boil, or because of the higher volume of water not even worry about it?

I don't know- it never occurred to me to do a late extract addition with a full boil. You could do that, but you'd have to really think about your hops additions because you'd have a lower gravity boil once again. Again, the software (if you find some!) can help with that more than my guesses.

The reason my Dead Guy was "twice as bitter" was because it was a low IBU and malty beer. It might not be so noticeable in say, a 55 IBU beer because it might only change to, say, 65 IBUs. That isn't much in a beer like that. But in a malty beer, it made a huge difference. Same with my Fat Tire clone- a partial boil gave me 19 IBUs but with a full boil it would have been 35. A huge difference!

With full boils, late extract additions are not as benefitial. You're already getting better utilization and less chance of scorching.

I do full boils w/extract all the time and haven't noticed any significant difference with late extract addition.


However, I do 'steep' grains in @half the water (sorta partial mash) first, and then add extract and the and the remaining water needed for full boil into the pot, bring it to boil, add hops, etc. etc.

mot said:

so it was twice as bitter....I have heard tons of different things on this that it will be much more bitter and some say that it is not a huge difference so dont worry about it.

I am just starting to play around with some beer programs..I am on a mac so there is only a couple available to me. I was playing around this morning and the same exact recipe was getting way different OG and FG's IBU's, and Color so I dont know what was going on in those

Click to expand...

Hey mot, I use Macs too. What programs have you come across? I have only found one that's OK, it's called Beer Alchemy. I haven't used it that much though. Any Mac users here want to suggest any programs? I will probably be getting a 30 qt aluminum pot and I'd like to have an idea of how a full boil will affect the IBUs of my recipes. Thanks!

this all seems so backwards to me. a lower gravity, partial boil, means there's less malt to 'take on' the alpha acids of the hops.

it seems like the late extract addition would end up mostly unhopped, and in my head at least, would end up diluting the wort that was hopped, essentially bringing the increased utilization back to the same level it would have been had you just boiled all the extract in the first place.

Do I just not understand because I'm not educated enough into the science/chemistry yet?

I can't bring a 20qt pot to boiling on my stove, so I've been doing two 12qt pots and splitting all my DME, LME and hops equally (with a nice kitchen scale), because I read it was better to get as close to a full boil as possible with all your malt and hops. Some of what I read here makes me think I should just do one 12qt pot, and late extract additions instead of my current method.

malkore said:

this all seems so backwards to me. a lower gravity, partial boil, means there's less malt to 'take on' the alpha acids of the hops.

it seems like the late extract addition would end up mostly unhopped, and in my head at least, would end up diluting the wort that was hopped, essentially bringing the increased utilization back to the same level it would have been had you just boiled all the extract in the first place."

Click to expand...

It isn't the malt components that 'take up' the hops, like you say. Rather, it is the water. And the less that has been added to the water (e.g., malt extracts), the BETTER it is at isomerizing the hops (hence, increasing utilization). Late ME additions work because the water is able to utilize the hops during the period of the boil before all the ME is added. I didn't articulate this very well, but I hope it makes sense.

EDIT: Just a note here -- there has to be SOME malt component in the water to isomerize hops, because typically the alkalinity of the water must be reduced to achieve optimal hop utilization. So when I say the less malt extract the better the utilization, it isn't an absolute thing!

I can't bring a 20qt pot to boiling on my stove, so I've been doing two 12qt pots and splitting all my DME, LME and hops equally (with a nice kitchen scale), because I read it was better to get as close to a full boil as possible with all your malt and hops. Some of what I read here makes me think I should just do one 12qt pot, and late extract additions instead of my current method.

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The split pot method is probably still preferable because what limits your system is the ability to boil water. As previously stated, if you are doing a full boil (or close to it), the advantages of a late addition aren't as great. It would still help, but just not as much. However, if just want to rid yourself of the obvious hassle of splitting your boil, a late addition and a water top-up might give you comparable results to your current method.

malkore said:

this all seems so backwards to me. a lower gravity, partial boil, means there's less malt to 'take on' the alpha acids of the hops.

it seems like the late extract addition would end up mostly unhopped, and in my head at least, would end up diluting the wort that was hopped, essentially bringing the increased utilization back to the same level it would have been had you just boiled all the extract in the first place.

Do I just not understand because I'm not educated enough into the science/chemistry yet?

I can't bring a 20qt pot to boiling on my stove, so I've been doing two 12qt pots and splitting all my DME, LME and hops equally (with a nice kitchen scale), because I read it was better to get as close to a full boil as possible with all your malt and hops. Some of what I read here makes me think I should just do one 12qt pot, and late extract additions instead of my current method.

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I only do 1.5 gal boils. Have since I started brewing (and I ain't changing).

According to Papazian's TCJOHB, there's a hop utilization chart. In it it states the MAX hop utilization you can acquire, which is 30 extraction, is in 1 gal of water to 1 lb of malt with 1 oz of hops for a 60 min boil. This gives you an approximate gravity of 1.040.

Do what you want with that info.

thanks guys, that does help, since I thought the malt is what the acid binds to. now I see its the pH created by the malt that helps the acid release and bind to the water molecules.

thus the hop acids always get 'diluted' from wort to fermenter if you have to add top off water, but they're really only 'diluted' to the correct level. and if anything, too much malt (i.e. high wort gravity) stunts hops in the first place, making the beer less bitter than intended.

Look ma! I learned something!

brewerdave said:

Hey mot, I use Macs too. What programs have you come across? I have only found one that's OK, it's called Beer Alchemy. I haven't used it that much though. Any Mac users here want to suggest any programs? I will probably be getting a 30 qt aluminum pot and I'd like to have an idea of how a full boil will affect the IBUs of my recipes. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Yeah I have that one but it doesnt work very good you need to be on 10.4 for it to work right I get rashes all the time cause I am on 10.3.9 and havent bought the new tiger or whatever it is.

Qbrew seems the most user freindly so far, best interface to me.

Go to the basic brewing radio website and they did a show on beer software, they have a bnch of links posted there

Mac Users can get Pro-mash if you have Virtual PC. Or you can use this more limited, free, online program that wroks pretty well:

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator

Off to pour another pint!

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EDIT: Just a note here -- there has to be SOME malt component in the water to isomerize hops, because typically the alkalinity of the water must be reduced to achieve optimal hop utilization. So when I say the less malt extract the better the utilization, it isn't an absolute thing!


Heat is the component that isomerizes the alpha acids. It is a reaction converting alpha to beta acids.

The amount of water in the boil is what determines the extraction of the hops. The solubility of the alpha acids in water is not 100% like salt or sugar (not really but an analogy) so the more water you have the more acids come out of the hops. Making a saturated solution of alpha acids in water eventually you reach a point where no more acids will be drawn out of the hops for a given amount of water.