legal woes, screwed by passport

Put briefly:

Screwed by Economy, late 2007

Put kids (3) on Passport supplemented FREE insurance, great! COBRA was going to be $1100/mo.

(Can't make more than $4100/mo to qualify for passport)

Got good COMMISION job.

Notified case worker. Said to keep in touch. Told her in June 2009 that I made more than $4100 that month. she said it would be averaged.

We decided not to re-up Passport in August 2009, because my job was going well.

Passport CALLED us 5 months ago to let us know they were going to sue us for services in June 2010. $5000.00

They refused to send any documentation and said that if we got an attorney and tried to plead innocent (to FRAUD) they would see to it that we did jail time.

So, we will be sued next month. We are scared to hire an attorney. Where do we go?

Their representative (who is no longer there) stated to us that passport had made mistakes and that we didn't owe 5K. She is no longer there.

They threatened you with jail time if you hire counsel? Go Get A Lawyer NOW!! Counter sue for 100 times what they are asking from you. This is abuse of power, plain and simple!!

I would also say get an attorney ASAP.

Hire a lawyer. They are trying to bully you and in fact such a threat might even be considered extortion.

What is passport?

That is what I figured, but they haven't actually served us papers yet.

They sent us a letter that basically said: Pay us the 5K as per our phone conversation (where they flatly refused to send us any kind of documentation) by Jan 30th or we will take the matter to court.

That has come and gone.

We may owe some money, but can I at least see the bill?

Our case worker was negligent in telling us that "the Income would be averaged", but we were the ones who signed the papers, we should (I guess) have known better than the case worker, but I don't even get to see a list of charges and expenses?????

*PASSPORT HEALTHCARE is a private extension of Medicaid (I think). It offers free or almost free health care for children and pregnant or nursing mothers*

So they are the govt? If so, it's likely they are immune from most forms of lawsuit.. The most you can do is to probably just get them off your back.. And a lawyer to do that might end up costing you more than the 5K, and they know it...

What a sham.. You have to pay for the lawyer to defend yourself against them, and they charge you (as a taxpayer) to defend themselves against you or to go after you...

But I'd talk to a couple of them anyways... (which is like hiring your own shark to eat another shark)

In a sane world, seeing as they work for us, we should just be able to fire them.. but the monster is growing too big for that now.. We should have put it on a diet a long time ago... Que Sera..

Yeah, these are the people we want as the 'only' choice for our health care... You think the private insurance companies are bad? Wait till you are dealing with the IRS for your medical services..

FWIW, we do not have debtors prison in America.. They can not put you in jail for the debt unless you committed perjury or fraud...

I'd go to the news... Much cheaper than a lawyer...

Try FNC... Regardless of yours or anyone else's personal opinion of them, they would be the most sympathetic to your situation... As the mainstream media is largely trying to put a pretty face on govt health care and how wonderful it will be for us all, they will be less sympathetic.....

The govt doesn't like having it's dirty laundry aired to the public, so national news would be more likely to get something done... as that would occur from the top down...

This kind of crap really pisses me off...

First, they are obligated to provide proof in writing that you did any wrong. They don't have to provide it to YOU, but they do have to provide it at some point.

They cannot threaten you with worse punishment for hiring a lawyer. You are within your rights to gain representation for yourself. This threat could be considered illegal if you can prove it happened.

You may need more than a "She said.." to get out of paying money to them, regardless. The worst thing is having someone say "It's ok, dont' worry" and taking their word for it. Unless you have proof that you were coerced into continuing the program even though you didn't qualify, you will be obligated to pay.

I'd get a lawyer NOW, and try to contact the person who handled your account to see if there is any information that she can provide to help you.

The fact that they are trying to bully you means that they know they don't stand a chance if you get a lawyer. Get a lawyer. Do you have any record of the representative telling you this? Emails or anything?

It's conversations like those that make me feel like I need to carry a recording device with me. Threatening you with any sort of repercussions would be considered extortion and is a 100% illegal tactic, but good luck proving they threatened you without a recording of the conversation. It's a scummy collections strategy, having faith that you won't lawyer up, and people get away with it every day. I would at least pay to talk to a lawyer for an hour and get some advice from a professional on how to proceed.

cheezydemon3 said:

where they flatly refused to send us any kind of documentation) by Jan 30th or we will take the matter to court.

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Sounds like a scam to me. Have you called into them rather than just them calling you? Because anyone that has info on you can fake being a representative of another company and demand money.

That aside, I would record everything. When they call you must by law inform them that you are recording the entire conversation. I guarantee you they'll change their tone and won't say those things anymore. Definitely get a lawyer, or at least consult with one - usually free to talk with them first.


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

Sounds like a scam to me. Have you called into them rather than just them calling you? Because anyone that has info on you can fake being a representative of another company and demand money.

That aside, I would record everything. When they call you must by law inform them that you are recording the entire conversation. I guarantee you they'll change their tone and won't say those things anymore. Definitely get a lawyer, or at least consult with one - usually free to talk with them first.


Rev.

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Actually by law (in most states so check yours), only one party has to be aware of the recording. So as long as you know, you are covered. Other companies are just nice enough to tell you you're being recorded.

"Federal law and many state wiretapping statutes permit recording if one party (including you) to the phone call or conversation consents. Other states require that all parties to the communication consent. "

IrregularPulse said:

Actually by law (in most states so check yours), only one party has to be aware of the recording. So as long as you know, you are covered. Other companies are just nice enough to tell you you're being recorded.

"Federal law and many state wiretapping statutes permit recording if one party (including you) to the phone call or conversation consents. Other states require that all parties to the communication consent. "

Click to expand...

It varies from state to state, but in most states you must notify them that they are being recorded.. However, I would check with a lawyer, as I believe that the restriction is that you can not use such recordings in court unless the other party is informed beforehand...

But that doesn't mean such recordings can't be used in the 'media'.. and that use can be even more damaging to them than the courts.. As the courts will likely just force them to stop harassing you personally, while the media can bring unwanted light to their whole way of doing things... which means heads have to roll...

The last thing the govt wants right now is for the general public to see through their BS and realize that they are way overreaching... The illusion that they are in it for 'us' is of paramount importance to them.. Image is everything...

Sux you have to pay for a lawyer to defend yourself against the govt who's original purposes included protecting you from such behavior... and the fact that they use 'your' money to harass you makes it that much more wrong...

It has nothing to do with the government - calm down people!
Don't hire an attorney at this point - contact someone higher up in the organization and get the facts before spending $$ on a attorney. Even if they were to sue you now you would still have time to go the attorney route.


Passport Health Plan: At-A-Glance

Passport Health Plan is a provider-sponsored HMO. The University of Louisville Medical School Practice Association, University of Louisville Medical Center, Jewish and St. Mary's Healthcare, Norton Healthcare Inc., and The Louisville/Jefferson County Primary Care Association (which includes the Federally Qualified Health Centers and The Louisville Metro Department of Health and Wellness) established University Health Care, Inc. The Plan is administered by AmeriHealth Mercy Health Plan. AmeriHealth Mercy and its affiliates comprise the largest family of Medicaid managed care plans in the United States, touching the lives of more than 6.5 million members.

The Plan serves approximately 165,000 members in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, which is comprised of the following 16 counties: Jefferson, Oldham, Trimble, Carroll, Henry, Shelby, Spencer, Bullitt, Nelson, Washington, Marion, Larue, Hardin, Grayson, Meade, Breckinridge.

Passport Health Plan's offices are located at 305 West Broadway, Louisville, Kentucky 40202.

http://www.passporthealthplan.com/about/index.aspx

If it's 'not' the govt, then you have a 'lot' more rights.. including the right to recover damages in a court of law... And in that case. the mainstream media will be more sympathetic to your cause...

If threatening you with 'jail' is not illegal when there is no authority to do so, it should be...

I would definitely record the conversations.. it might come in handy down the road... at the very least, you can play it back to their supervisors/CEO to prove the misconduct...

Also, handwritten notes on your end are perfectly legal in any court of law, and you don't have to inform anyone that you are doing so.. Recordings are an excellent way to go back and make such notes... No one has to know that they came from a recording of the conversation vs being done live during the actual phone call...

Document 'everything'

OT: Dude, seriously. What is with the random quotation marks?

weirdboy said:

OT: Dude, seriously. What is with the random quotation marks?

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Actually, they're apostrophes.. quotation marks look like this (" ")..You only use quotation marks when 'quoting' someone...

I use apostrophes for emphasis.. In normal printed text, you would bold, or underline, or italic text (or possibly even color) for emphasis.. but those methods are improper nettiquette, as with hypertext they all are methods of implying a link....

It's the only way I can think of to 'emphasize' a word, without using methods that would imply a hyperlink, or improperly imply a quote where there is none...

Got a better idea? I'm open to hearing it.. (although if you do, I'm pretty well habituated to using this, so it might be hard to change)

I use apostrophes for emphasis.. In normal printed text, you would bold, or underline, or italic text for emphasis.. but that is improper nettiquette, as with hypertext it implies a link....

Click to expand...

I don't know where you got your netiquette rules, but you have bold and italic in your signature, and there are buttons for bold and italic in the reply window, so I imagine they are there to be used. If you want to emphasize a word without using bold or italic, the standard practice on the net is to use CAPS.

If you're going to be pedantic, you should also best be correct in your terminology.

A private entity cannot place you in jail. At best, they can refer the issue to a prosecutor's office and see if they have any interest. It would be doubtful anything would go beyond that. Debt collectors are free to assert almost anything they want to scare you into paying. It doesn't mean anything they say is truthful.

You said you are going to be sued and they still have not provided you any documentation? Well, at very least when they file a complaint to sue you they will have to cough up documentation. Once you are served, you need to hire an attorney, although I would recommend talking to one now.

If you notified them your income exceeded the threshold for coverage and they declined to stop coverage then you have been relieved of any duty for further notification (and fraud goes out the window because it disproves an intent to "steal" coverage from them). However, if you continued to obtain the benefits of coverage (e.g. used it to pay medical expenses or did not obtain other coverage because you knew you had this coverage) then you could be ordered to pay the premiums because you enjoyed the benefit of their services without compensating them.

Get a lawyer and contact your congressional representative.

weirdboy said:

I don't know where you got your netiquette rules, but you have bold and italic in your signature, and there are buttons for bold and italic in the reply window, so I imagine they are there to be used. If you want to emphasize a word without using bold or italic, the standard practice on the net is to use CAPS.

If you're going to be pedantic, you should also best be correct in your terminology.

Click to expand...

CAPS are considered 'Yelling'.. I'm not yelling..

Seriously, it never ceases to amaze me the 'petty' things that bother people, while pretending the big issues in life will go away if they ignore them..

Choose your battles... no sense in spending all your energy and credibility on the small stuff... you'll have none left for the larger issues that actually matter... It's just like parenting.. You use grace on the things of small consequence, and your kids will have more respect for when you put your foot down on the important ones...

If the apostrophes bother you that much, just pretend they're not there...

In other words..
"RDWHAHB"

From the linked article:
"Quotation marks can also be used to emphasise words, phrases or parts of text by the backing of another sense or meaning by which one wants the reader to interpret the statement or text in a way other than the one initially suggested, such as to convey irony."

So why are you having a hard time with me using them as I do, since you linked to an article you provide as evidence, that shows I am clearly using them the correct way?

And furthermore, why are you asking me to instead use a method that is not for that purpose, and instead easily confused for hyperlinking to elsewhere?

Why is this so important?

As to my sig, are you honestly telling me that you can not decipher that these are obviously 'quotes' and not hyperlinks to elsewhere, and that my use of bolding and italics is intended to deliniate them from the rest of the post that is not a sig?

And again

"RDWHAHB"
Notice my use of the many buttons available in the editor tool bar?
(just for you )

only a 'raiders' fan...

j/k!

motobrewer said:

only a 'raiders' fan...

j/k!

Click to expand...

Jealous?

If anyone ever advices you not to gt an attorney, get an attorney then stop talking to them altogether.

Have you been served papers? This sound like (I could be wrong) a civil case, in which case their is no jail time involved.

It is a little unclear Tex, but they are crying fraud. (as in, we INTENTIONALLY scammed them by making more and hiding it.....complete BS)

That can be criminal. NO, no papers as yet.

weirdboy said:

OT: Dude, seriously. What is with the random quotation marks?

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Who is OT?

cheezydemon3 said:

Who is OT?

Click to expand...

Off Topic

Unless you submitted documentation contrary to the truth, there is no fraud. If they actually suspected fraud, they would already have given this over to the proper authorities.

This sounds to me like Passport has given your account over to a collection agency, and you've been contacted by an over-zealous collector. This is very typical behavior for collectors. If this person contacts you again, stick to your guns and tell them they must provide sufficient evidence of the debt before you'll make any commitment to pay anything.

IMHO, there is no need to get a lawyer yet. Even if it goes to court, this would probably be a small claims case. As previously suggested, you should contact Passport directly and talk to a manager in their receivables department. Find out the status of your account, and ask for documentation. If they're considering taking you to court, they'd have to provide it through discovery anyway. You will need to determine how they calculated the amount owed, regardless of what their rep told you in the past (assuming you don't have something in writing stating it would be averaged). Ask if they are charging you any kind of interest and/or penalties on top of the actual premium calculation.

The bad news: I'm going to guess that this isn't the first time Passport has contacted you about this (thus the collection agency). If they can prove that they've given you sufficient notice, and sufficient opportunity to rectify the matter, a court would probably find in their favor. Either way, you're probably going to end up owing them something. When talking to the A/R manager, ask about the possibility of a negotiated settlement (at least the revocation of any penalties and interest).

Good Luck,

Moose

cheezydemon3 said:

Put briefly:

Screwed by Economy, late 2007

Put kids (3) on Passport supplemented FREE insurance, great! COBRA was going to be $1100/mo.

(Can't make more than $4100/mo to qualify for passport)

Got good COMMISION job.

Notified case worker. Said to keep in touch. Told her in June 2009 that I made more than $4100 that month. she said it would be averaged.

We decided not to re-up Passport in August 2009, because my job was going well.

Passport CALLED us 5 months ago to let us know they were going to sue us for services in June 2010. $5000.00

They refused to send any documentation and said that if we got an attorney and tried to plead innocent (to FRAUD) they would see to it that we did jail time.

So, we will be sued next month. We are scared to hire an attorney. Where do we go?

Their representative (who is no longer there) stated to us that passport had made mistakes and that we didn't owe 5K. She is no longer there.

Click to expand...

It's your RIGHT to be represented by an attorney; they're trying to intimidate you, which I'm sure a case could be made for a lawsuit against THEM if you really wanted to push it. Far as I'm aware, it's still illegal to threaten people. I'd hire an attorney ASAP. Regards, GF.

gratus fermentatio said:

Far as I'm aware, it's still illegal to threaten people.

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Threats are not flatly "illegal." You can threaten filing civil lawsuits, damages, and lots of other things.

When you, a person without authority to prosecute, threaten prosecution, that is a problem.

r8rphan said:

So they are the govt? If so, it's likely they are immune from most forms of lawsuit.. The most you can do is to probably just get them off your back.. And a lawyer to do that might end up costing you more than the 5K, and they know it....

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Many state governments have waived immunity from civil suits. This varies from state to state and statute to statute and depends on whether this is something that must be pursued administratively.

A good attorney with experience would probably handle hundreds, maybe thousands of these types of matters, and would have a fee agreement that is reasonable for his work on the case. This type of practice that would fit this current scenario usually tends to be a volume practice and in the competitive market right now, attorney fees would be reasonable.

r8rphan said:

If it's 'not' the govt, then you have a 'lot' more rights.. including the right to recover damages in a court of law... And in that case. the mainstream media will be more sympathetic to your cause...

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You can recover damages from the government if you prove liability. Remember immunity statutes need to be considered and not all government entities are entitled to immunity. States have a historical dislike for municipalities, so it would be overbroad to give say all government entities in a state are immune from suit.

MenkeMoose said:

If they can prove that they've given you sufficient notice, and sufficient opportunity to rectify the matter, a court would probably find in their favor.

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You mean a default judgment? That occurs pursuant to court rules (maybe statute in your jurisdiction) after the commencement of a lawsuit. Lawsuit commences with filing of complaint with the proper court and service of process on the defendants. Does not seem like he has been served with anything.

TxBrew said:

If anyone ever advices you not to gt an attorney, get an attorney then stop talking to them altogether.

Click to expand...

/thread

When I was saying all that, I was picturing the federal govt in my mind, not state govts...

I really don't know that much about all the entitlement programs out there, but I'm reaching that age where before long I will probably have to learn more about them than I ever wanted to...

r8rphan said:

When I was saying all that, I was picturing the federal govt in my mind, not state govts...

I really don't know that much about all the entitlement programs out there, but I'm reaching that age where before long I will probably have to learn more about them than I ever wanted to...

Click to expand...

Even the federal government is not totally immune. There are so many factors involved and usually the feds decide to settle with or create causes of action against private parties for favored persons the fed has injured. There are pros and cons with all of this.

MenkeMoose said:

If they can prove that they've given you sufficient notice, and sufficient opportunity to rectify the matter, a court would probably find in their favor.

Click to expand...

triethylborane said:

You mean a default judgment? That occurs pursuant to court rules (maybe statute in your jurisdiction) after the commencement of a lawsuit. Lawsuit commences with filing of complaint with the proper court and service of process on the defendants. Does not seem like he has been served with anything.

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Obviously, I meant once a lawsuit commences, how else would a court make such a finding?

I'm trying to spur him to take action now, before any filing occurs. He needs to understand the nature of the debt, if there is a reasonable amount he may owe, and if negotiation of the amount owed is possible. If Passport is unwilling to provide the necessary documentation, or if he is then unable to achieve an expedient acceptable solution, he should hire an attorney.

At this point, though, I don't believe he has exhausted all other avenues. He needs to find the appropriate person at Passport who has the authority to make final/binding decisions regarding his case.

One additional note: If the account has gone to collections, as I suspect, Passport may be unwilling to discuss the account any further. In which case you will probably want to seek an attorney, so you can stop the collection activity until the account is resolved.

Moose

cheezydemon3 said:

It is a little unclear Tex, but they are crying fraud. (as in, we INTENTIONALLY scammed them by making more and hiding it.....complete BS)

That can be criminal. NO, no papers as yet.

Click to expand...

It can be, but often times it is not. You have to prove criminal intent, or negligence, leading to the act.

Like I said, lawyer up, you can wait till you are served, if they do that, but if they are asking for their money back, they are just using scare tactics so they don't have to spend any more money on you than they have to.

Thanks all, really everyone was helpful (except the english major, typing critic) I will post any updates if anyone cares.