Fuller's ESB clone?

Hey guys, I'm looking to brew a clone of Fuller's ESB. Netflyer says he has a pretty decent extract recipe, but my dad (co-brewmaster) and I are really into all-grain these days. Anyone have a really spot-on all-grain Fuller's ESB clone recipe?

Did you look in the database? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f64/

Some of those recipes look really good. I'd try KingBrian's, or NiqueJim's which looks pretty close to Fuller's to me. I know BYO magazine ran a Fuller's clone about a year or so ago, I can try to dig that up if you'd like.

That would be really appreciated!!

Mine is damn close, but you MUST use the right yeast or it will not be the same, and don't burn the sugar when you carmelize it

Just brewed the fuller's clone on Sunday from "150 clone brews". I can't tell ya how good it is, but can tell you the other brews I've done from this book have been really close if not spot on. Here's the recipe:

9lb british 2-row
12oz british crystal (55-60)
2oz british amber malt
2oz aromatic malt
8oz flaked maize(mashed) or 4oz corn sugar(boil)

7 hbus target hops (60min)
1/2 oz challenger (15min)
1/2 oz challenger (10min)
1 oz east kent goldings (1min)
1/2 oz kent goldings (dry hop in secondary)

Irish moss (15min)
English ale yeast (they call for wyeast 1968...I used saf-ale 04)
Recipe based on 70% efficiency (1.055sg-1.011fg)

Single infusion mash @150

Hope that helps....the wort tasted delicious. Hoppy and aromatic. Will let you know how it tastes when I transfer to secondary.

From BYO: (never made this, just copied the recipe here)
OG 1.060
IBU 35 SRM 15

9 lbs 2 oz English 2-row pale malt
2 lbs flaked maize
1 lb 2 oz crystal 60L

5.25 AAU Target (60) (.53 ounce of 10%AA)
2.6 AAU Challenger (60) (.34 ounce of 7.5% AA)
.083 AAU Northdown hops (15) (.1 oz of 8.5%AA)
1.66 AAU Goldings hops (15) (.33 oz of 5% AA)

Wyeast 1968 or White Labs WLP002 (with a large starter)

Mash 154 for 60 minutes. 90 minute boil.

Whoa, thanks, guys!

Don't know if anyone is still looking at this thread but I've been thinking a lot about the Fullers taste. I'd have to pose this question to the veteran AG people but it seems to me that Fullers is sweeter than most ESB's I have experienced. I have read everything from caramelized sugar, a flaked maize, or straight corn sugar. But, now that I'm doing AG I've been reading up and think about the taste of the Fuller, it is not really medium bodied but full bodied instead. I'm wondering about mashing at a higher temp to keep some sweetness in it... What do you guys think?

Netflyer said:

Don't know if anyone is still looking at this thread but I've been thinking a lot about the Fullers taste. I'd have to pose this question to the veteran AG people but it seems to me that Fullers is sweeter than most ESB's I have experienced. I have read everything from caramelized sugar, a flaked maize, or straight corn sugar. But, now that I'm doing AG I've been reading up and think about the taste of the Fuller, it is not really medium bodied but full bodied instead. I'm wondering about mashing at a higher temp to keep some sweetness in it... What do you guys think?

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That's why I added the caramelized sugar to my recipe


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f64/full-owl-esb-55408/

niquejim said:

That's why I added the caramelized sugar to my recipe


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f64/full-owl-esb-55408/

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I have heard about carmelized sugar before - I think I read there is something called brewers carmel - but I really like your baking method idea!

But, here is the thing that keeps making me wonder. To have a sweet taste remaining after fermentation we need to have some of the sugar remain and not ferment (possibly) and that's why I was wondering if we mash at say 158 instead of 154 if more of them will remain and be tasteable when the beer is done.

The carmelized sugar will no doubt add to the color but won't it all be fermented and turned into alcohol thus not leaving any of the sweeter taste?

I have also read a few places that Fullers doesn't use Maize but I'm not sure I buy that at all... so many clone recipes have maize in them.

Fullers is one of these brews that has an incredibly unique taste, almost all of their products do, specifically the ESB and Porter. It makes me wonder about the brewing process more than the ingredients...

I'm probably going to make two batches soon... Mash one at 154 and one at 158 and see

Netflyer said:

I have heard about carmelized sugar before - I think I read there is something called brewers carmel - but I really like your baking method idea!

But, here is the thing that keeps making me wonder. To have a sweet taste remaining after fermentation we need to have some of the sugar remain and not ferment (possibly) and that's why I was wondering if we mash at say 158 instead of 154 if more of them will remain and be tasteable when the beer is done.

The carmelized sugar will no doubt add to the color but won't it all be fermented and turned into alcohol thus not leaving any of the sweeter taste?

I have also read a few places that Fullers doesn't use Maize but I'm not sure I buy that at all... so many clone recipes have maize in them.

Fullers is one of these brews that has an incredibly unique taste, almost all of their products do, specifically the ESB and Porter. It makes me wonder about the brewing process more than the ingredients...

I'm probably going to make two batches soon... Mash one at 154 and one at 158 and see

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Mashing higher doesn't really add much sweetness but rather adds body. Maybe try some Honey malt.

Ahh, honey malt... another possibility..

Let me ask you then, and I know this is probably a noob question but I don't care, when we say Full Bodied, what does that really mean, what makes a 'full body'? I've heard the terms thin and thick used for mashing at lower or higher temps... Here is a source from BrewWiki:

The temperature of mash steps, particularly the main sugar conversion (called the saccrification step) can have a significant effect on the character of the beer. Lower temperature conversion - around 148-152 F will take longer but will produce a more complete conversion of complex starches to sugars resulting in more fermentation and a clean, lighter tasting beer. A high temperature conversion of 155-158 F will result in less starch conversion leaving a beer with more unfermentable dextrines. This will create a beer with a full body and flavor. Middle mash temperatures (153-156) will result in medium bodied beers.

So after reading this I was wondering: If I mash at 158 and have unfermentable dextrines, won't they taste sweet?

Also: but Spanish I like your tag line... another cool thing about the women brewing was that each small town was responsible for their own beer and it was supposed to be good... if it turned out bad apparently the MEN would/could get flogged, not the women. So this was a way for women to get back at their husbands or a reason for husbands to be nice to their wives... Also a lot of this predated direct Yeast usage and the family had a 'brewstick' passed down through the generations... well the women had control of that magic stick too.

All these starches, dextrines, sugars are just chains of the same thing: glucose molecules. Starches are the longest chains and for lack of a better way to say it, our tongues just can't get a grip on these long chains and they taste pretty much like nothing. The simplest sugars; glucose, fructose, and also maltose (the main sugar in wort, it's just two glucose molecules) and sucrose (table sugar, it's just a glucose and a fructose molecule) are by far the sweetest. But these simple sugars are also the fermentable ones.

I would recommend reading Kaiser's The Science of Mashing. The Carbohydrates section in particular covers this.

EDIT: You could also try Golden Promise as your base. I recently made an ESB with Golden Promise as the base and it had a nice sweetness to it.

SpanishCastleAle said:

All these starches, dextrines, sugars are just chains of the same thing: glucose molecules. Starches are the longest chains and for lack of a better way to say it, our tongues just can't get a grip on these long chains and they taste pretty much like nothing.

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Now this makes TOTAL SENSE! Thanks man... So the sugars left from higher temp. fermentations are not sweet because they are just complex molecules that we don't taste as sugar, like starch, all made of sugar but doesn't taste sweet unless we keep in in our mouth a long time and let the amylase break em' down... cool!

Any yeah to the Golden Promise... I'll check into that.. thanks a million!

Netflyer said:

Now this makes TOTAL SENSE! Thanks man... So the sugars left from higher temp. fermentations are not sweet because they are just complex molecules that we don't taste as sugar, like starch, all made of sugar but doesn't taste sweet unless we keep in in our mouth a long time and let the amylase break em' down... cool!

Any yeah to the Golden Promise... I'll check into that.. thanks a million!

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Yup, except just to be clear it should be 'higher temp mashes'. Not 'fermentations'..probably just a typo.

Ray Daniels has some excellent information on this subject in Designing Great Beers.
One thing that I have found that makes a very noticeable difference, is a thick mash using 1 qt per lb grain, and a relatively low mash temp (149F to 151F from DGB)
Also from DGB, less that 30% of commercial bitters use any fermentables other than Pale, Crystal, and Sugar, and the sugar is often maltose (not widely available to homebrewers in the States).
I like to keep the crystal down to < 5% of the grist, add a very small amount of black malt (for color), and add about 5 - 10% sugar to get the FG down a bit. This gives me great results, but I haven't had a Fullers ESB for over 20 years except the bottled version which is nothing like the real thing.

-a.

To be honest, I haven't had a Fuller's ESB in a year or two (and only had it a couple of times). I just remember really liking it and wanted to make one...
Anyway, being that I haven't had it in ages, I couldn't say for sure, but do you think adding a little Special B would impart the kind of sweetness you're looking for?

I posted earlier in this thread about my fuller's clone frome 150 clone brews (recipe posted on 1st page of thread). I just bottled it and it's delicious...a little thin...but all the characteristics of fullers that I like is there. Next time I'll mash a couple degrees higher. Just thought I'd let you know.

paint_it_black said:

To be honest, I haven't had a Fuller's ESB in a year or two (and only had it a couple of times). I just remember really liking it and wanted to make one...
Anyway, being that I haven't had it in ages, I couldn't say for sure, but do you think adding a little Special B would impart the kind of sweetness you're looking for?

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2% to 4% special B works great in a special bitter IMO. However, Fuller's ESB is a different animal to other special bitters as it has a strange kinda orange flavour hiding away in there. This makes it a little sharper than most special bitters.

ajf said:

One thing that I have found that makes a very noticeable difference, is a thick mash using 1 qt per lb grain, and a relatively low mash temp (149F to 151F from DGB).This gives me great results, but I haven't had a Fullers ESB for over 20 years except the bottled version which is nothing like the real thing.

-a.

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Could you qualify these statements a bit more for me? What difference does the mash regimen envoke? What qualities are different from bottle to draught?

See http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-6.html (para 3)
See also Designing Great Beers. "Most pale ale mashes are conducted at temperatures of 150 - 154F, although bitters may be mashed slightly lower, at 149 - 151F. These mashes are usually a bit thick, with a water to grain ration of 1 quart per lb."

When I was learning to do AG (from English sources) I was taught this, and for many years, that was all I did. A few years ago, I experimented with thinner mashes, and was amazed at what a difference there was between 1 qt/lb and 1.25 qt/lb. The former resulted in a much maltier profile.
As for the difference between bottled and draught, the draught is a real ale with very low carbonation, while the bottled is not, and has much higher carbonation. See also the comments in the BJCP guidlines. http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style08.php#1c

paint_it_black said:

To be honest, I haven't had a Fuller's ESB in a year or two (and only had it a couple of times). I just remember really liking it and wanted to make one...
Anyway, being that I haven't had it in ages, I couldn't say for sure, but do you think adding a little Special B would impart the kind of sweetness you're looking for?

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I've never tried special B in anything, so I can't say what affect it would have. From the description, it sounds as though it might work if only a very small amount was used.

-a.

Ole Speckled hen is another fantastic ESB with a sweeter character.

The recipe calls fro 9-10% Invert sugar and around 2% of Dememera sugar.

It also calls for a 158-160 mash temp.

Wow, a thicker mash... hmmm I like that idea... and BeirMunchers example of that Old Speckled Hen ESB that mashes at 158-160.. very interesting!
So ajf, you're saying a thicker mash even if mashed at what would normally be considered a mash temperature for a thinner beer, eg. 149-151 would instead yield a maltier but not too thin of a beer? What happens if you thick mash 1 qt/lb and go 154 or 158 even thicker?

I should have said in my previous post that my results were obtained using about 95% Maris Otter, and 5% crystal 55. I don't know if you get similar results using a different base malt.
I've never tried a higher temperature mash using 1 qt / lb because (using an all malt brew) I can't get the FG down to where I want it, and I have to use some sugar to lower the FG.

-a.

ajf said:

I should have said in my previous post that my results were obtained using about 95% Maris Otter, and 5% crystal 55. I don't know if you get similar results using a different base malt.
I've never tried a higher temperature mash using 1 qt / lb because (using an all malt brew) I can't get the FG down to where I want it, and I have to use some sugar to lower the FG.

-a.

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Right there with you Maris Otter is my staple base grain. What do you think about a lot of the clones using maize to get the alcohol, or is that not why you want the FG lower?

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

it has a strange kinda orange flavour hiding away in there. This makes it a little sharper than most special bitters.

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Yes, the secret ingredient... all the clones struggle for it. 60L American crystal, 55L British crystal, brewers carmel, etc etc...

So many great ideas here though, if nothing else to make an excellent ESB ...

What do you think of the suggestion of mashing thicker and at a lower temp?

1qt/lb at 149/150 ... I have to try that!

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

2% to 4% special B works great in a special bitter IMO. However, Fuller's ESB is a different animal to other special bitters as it has a strange kinda orange flavour hiding away in there. This makes it a little sharper than most special bitters.

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Yeah, special B has a kind of raisiny taste which is not quite the kind of "sweetness" you want. I've never had fuller's ESB, however I'm almost 100% sure that orangy flavor you're talking about comes from the yeast. The couple of beers I've brewed using Wyeast 1968 (basically fuller's strain) have had this orange flavor. I'm so glad I'm not the only one picking up on this flavor from this yeast.

Netflyer said:

Right there with you Maris Otter is my staple base grain. What do you think about a lot of the clones using maize to get the alcohol, or is that not why you want the FG lower?

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Every time I've used maize in a brew, I can taste it, and frankly, I don't like the taste. I must admit, I think that I'm in a minority here because most people say you can't taste it.

I'm not really interested in increasing the alcohol, so much as the flavor. I've found that adding a small amount of sugar allows the yeast to attenuate better, and produce a brew without the cloying consequences of under-attenuation or the objectionable flavor of maize.

-a.

I use 6% Dark brown sugar or demerara sugar in my regular bitter recipes. Last week i did two identical batches but forgot the sugar in one of them. I guess I will soon have a reminder of why I decided on the sugar in the first place. Quite a lucky accident in hindsight.

Netflyer said:

I have heard about carmelized sugar before - I think I read there is something called brewers carmel - but I really like your baking method idea!

But, here is the thing that keeps making me wonder. To have a sweet taste remaining after fermentation we need to have some of the sugar remain and not ferment (possibly) and that's why I was wondering if we mash at say 158 instead of 154 if more of them will remain and be tasteable when the beer is done.

The carmelized sugar will no doubt add to the color but won't it all be fermented and turned into alcohol thus not leaving any of the sweeter taste?

Click to expand...

Quote from the Ask a scientist site
"When sugar (sucrose, C12H22O11) is gradually heated in air it melts into a
clear liquid. Soon afterward (as the temperature is increased) the sucrose
molecules begin to decompose -- first by dehydration (loss of water) and
then later by breaking the bonds between carbon atoms. This latter process
is complex -- partially oxidative and partially degradative. The degradation
products are likewise complex in the variety of intermediate compounds
formed.
It is at this point that caramelization is occurring. The molecular species
that form dissolve in and are dissolved by the molten sugar. The result is a
tasty, brownish syrup which, if further heated, will thence decompose into
some rather unpleasant (bitter tasting) materials."

Caramelization changes the makeup of the sugar allowing some of the original sucrose now in it's new more complex form to remain and add some body and some flavor to the end product. That is why I said to not burn the sugar

Very cool NiqueJim, very cool info... Is it hard not to burn it? I'm going to add your ESB to my 'to brew' list

Hey Gnome, I was looking at your recipes and I see the bitter in there with 1lb of Brown Sugar... Can I ask you: 20.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
Is that a typo? Did you mean 2 grams?
I'm going to add your Bitter to my brew list too and as soon as I grow a pair I'll use the SWMBO's oven to make my own 160 and biscuit...

I use brew salts and for my water it is 2 g Epsom, 2 g Gypsum, 2g CaCl2, and about 1g of NaCl and I just use that for the mashing part... I then dilute with my normal water after mashing, so all the sparge water is untreated.

20 g's of Gypsum sounds like, well 20g that's huge...

Sorry, off topic but I want a link to this post....

Hey niquejim...I pm'd you a few months back asking if you wanted me to forward you copies of the Fullers fine ale club magazine "First Draught"...did you catch the PM?

When Fullers draught ESB is in top form I don't think it can be beaten. Bottled ESB is only a substitute, albeit a good one. Trouble is, my local always has three seperate casks of ESB on the go, so to know which one is the best, you have to try all three!!! and that is true for the London Pride as well.

Netflyer
Once it starts to melt you have to keep your eye on it, but if you do it is easy.
I've found that if you mix the sugar with just enough water (1-2 tablespoons) until it feels like damp sand it is easier to do in a sauce pot on the stove top.

niquejim said:

Netflyer
Once it starts to melt you have to keep your eye on it, but if you do it is easy.
I've found that if you mix the sugar with just enough water (1-2 tablespoons) until it feels like damp sand it is easier to do in a sauce pot on the stove top.

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...and I want brown/carmel colored, not black, black means it went too far, right?

Stop when it's amber/brown is it goes from brown to black fairly quick and it imparts a burnt taste if you get it to dark brown/black ( I know this from experience )

FWIW, I made some caramelized sugar syrup a while back and made this thread about it. I was trying to make Dark Candi syrup for a Belgian Dubbel but that's a slightly different process (see the thread "20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient" for that). I didn't know what I was doing (used way too much water) but it still came out OK. I would get a candy thermometer and monitor the temp. And go slow with the heat.

Netflyer said:

Very cool NiqueJim, very cool info... Is it hard not to burn it? I'm going to add your ESB to my 'to brew' list

Hey Gnome, I was looking at your recipes and I see the bitter in there with 1lb of Brown Sugar... Can I ask you: 20.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
Is that a typo? Did you mean 2 grams?

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oops! I'll fix that.

This site has some interesting English recipes:

http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5022

Poobah58 said:

This site has some interesting English recipes:

http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5022

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Nice link, thanks! Good hearing from the Grand Poobah too...