Not loving S-04...

I've definitely had some trouble with S-04. I brewed an English Bitter and it had a very tart finish. It has that nice round malty front, with a nice bitter finish then out of no where comes this tart I licked a sour patch kid or cry baby flavor. It faded as I drank through it and it aged in the keg but never went completely away. This was before I had temp control more firmly nailed down like I do now - but with so much other available yeast, dry and liquid if I get a yeast that doesn't perform well or suite my taste I just move on -- likewise if I get one I like for a particular style I stay with it. Don't fix if its not broken mentality.

Funny that I saw this thread...hardly ever use S-04 but used for OktoberFAST beer. I agree it has this tart thing going....not really sure what it is. I have temperture control..so that's not it. Don't really care for it....other people have tried the beer and they don't mind it.

I use it a lot for bitters, milds, porters, etc, but I tend to ferment my ales pretty cool-60-62F for the bulk of the fermentation.

Anxiously awaiting trying my first S-04 beer. Just dropped a pair of browns in the fridge this morning and I'm nervous. 10 gallons across 2 styles with this yeast and I'm not very confident.

^^Yep. I bought 2 packs for use in a smoked porter and now you guys are making me think I should just go for something else... HMMM

blacksquid said:

^^Yep. I bought 2 packs for use in a smoked porter and now you guys are making me think I should just go for something else... HMMM

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FWIW, I didn't notice the strange flavors as much in my stout as I did in my Hobgoblin clone; the roastiness seemed to cover it up to some extent.

Not sure I wanna do any cover up operation! I think I may just swap those packs for my usual US-05 or give Nottingham a shot...

My experience with S-04 is limited, but what I have learned is that it does well in darker or maltier beers. For example I used it in a Blonde ale once. That beer turned out fine, but it definitely had a bready character to it from the yeast. I used it in a double IPA before and it was fantastic.

I recently made an ESB that just came out weird with S-04. I kept the temps around 70 and it still came out "off." I pitched a 1.5 cups of the S-04 slurry from my ESB into my Obsidian Stout clone and it turned out absolutely fantastic! If I use dry yeast in the future, it will be S-05 or Nottingham. S-04 just didn't work out for me.

TriggerFingers said:

I recently made an ESB that just came out weird with S-04. I kept the temps around 70 and it still came out "off." I pitched a 1.5 cups of the S-04 slurry from my ESB into my Obsidian Stout clone and it turned out absolutely fantastic! If I use dry yeast in the future, it will be S-05 or Nottingham. S-04 just didn't work out for me.

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Temps around 70? Is that ambient or fermentation? No offense but I haven't let a beer ferment that hot in years except for my saisons.
Several years ago I brewed a 15 gallon batch of Mild, OG around 1.045. I fermented it in 3 buckets with different yeasts but all at around 62-64F. I used WLP004, Safale 04 and Nottingham. The hands down favorite was the Nottingham with a very clean taste, but the 04 was a very close second. I used a very un-scientific evaluation method, several friends and family members sitting in the backyard drinking, but they had no idea they were evaluating yeasts so their comments were pretty honest.

Yep, my experience as well: darker, maltier ales seemed ok with S-04 but i made a pale ale with it once and tasted like it was mixed with cider.

corkybstewart said:

Temps around 70? Is that ambient or fermentation? No offense but I haven't let a beer ferment that hot in years except for my saisons.

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That was ambient air temp, and I started it in late September. I shot for a stretch of days when it was in the mid 60's outside. When I lived in Santa Barbara you could literally brew ales without any special considerations 10-11 months out of the year because the weather never really fluctuated. Here in New Jersey, it is another story.

GrainWhisperer said:

Yep, my experience as well: darker, maltier ales seemed ok with S-04 but i made a pale ale with it once and tasted like it was mixed with cider.

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I made a breakfast stout and that was the thought I had when I just siphoned it to a keg... I was taking a test sip from my FG it had the sour esters that I did not want... That will be keg # 3 that I used that ##@$@$@$@@ YEAST....

andycr said:

I'm trying Danstar Windsor for my 10th and newest brew (Caribou Slobber), so it'll be interesting to compare and contrast.

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I made a Caribou Slobber clone last winter with S-04 and it was spot on. I fermented at 64F and had no issues.

Just made an Amber ale with S-04. I thought the first time I used it (Common Room ESB), that something was different. It's probaby just a matter of tastes because some people do enjoy it, but this Amber (also 64F for the entire ferment) was the last beer it's going in...

Really really really wish I had used Cal Ale on the Amber instead. Oh well. Anyone have an alternative strain of English yeast that they'd use instead?

I personally like S-04, but I enjoy the tartness and breadyness it throws off and I ferment it low. It's not for everybody though. Some breweries really crank out the temperature (72F+) to get the fruityness out of it and I don't know how people can enjoy it. I think Meantime does use Whitbread that high for their IPA and it's one of the most celebrated English IPA out there...

I've brewed extensively with Windsor and it is a decent enough yeast, but I doubt I'll brew again with it. The mouthfeel is nice, but it gets much fruitier than S-04, even at lower temperatures and it tends to crap out very early (plus it never wants to drop out, unless you crash cool or fine with gelatin). Good for fermentble wort or beers with big sugar additions. Yesteray, I drank the last bottle of a mild I brewed with it and it was still as fruity as ever, even though the temperature couldn't have gotten higher than 64F on that ferment...

SkyHighBrew88 said:

Anyone have an alternative strain of English yeast that they'd use instead?

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Nottingham or Wyeast 1028

I also use a lot of Nottingam for basic UK style ales. I have a mild fermenting with it right now, then Ill rack a porter onto the yeast cake when the mild is kegged.

SkyHighBrew88 said:

Anyone have an alternative strain of English yeast that they'd use instead?

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I'm just going to say it... There are no dry yeast equivalents that are going to be even close, in overall quality, to the liquid strains for British style beer. Really, if you want to brew English beer, you need to be using a liquid yeast. Dry can make decent "attempts" but for the real thing, pony up the 7 bucks.

For hop forward beers: wy1028, 1335, 1098/99 (if you like whitbread), 1275, 1768, 1187, wlp006.

Malt forward: 1318, 1968, 1469, 1028, 1882, wlp037.

Favorites: 1318, 1469, 1882, 1768, wlp006.

I like S04 - low temps are clean, slight fruit, works well for American IPAs and Elder flower ales. A micro brewery in Kinlochleven Scotland uses it exclusively for traditional Uk ales. YMMV obviously!

Steve da sleeve

I always thought it was just me with the tart appleness of s-04. Nice to know I'm not alone. I much prefer wlp 002 for english brews.

I have only used 04 on my apricot blonde, two times, I have kept fermentation temps around 68 degrees. I have never had any off flavors, the apricot beer was a low alcohol blonde (summer beer), so I would think that off flavors would be more noticeable. However, US-05 is my house strain. I have used it on everything from a pale, an ipa, iipa, to a barleywine. It is a beast! Everytime that I have used Safeale dry yeast, I have rehydrated it instead of just sprinkling it on top of the wort. Are you rehydrating the yeast? I have had very little lag time when it is rehydrated. I usually have fermentation activity in about 14 hours or less.

bierhaus15 said:

I'm just going to say it... There are no dry yeast equivalents that are going to be even close, in overall quality, to the liquid strains for British style beer. Really, if you want to brew English beer, you need to be using a liquid yeast. Dry can make decent "attempts" but for the real thing, pony up the 7 bucks.

For hop forward beers: wy1028, 1335, 1098/99 (if you like whitbread), 1275, 1768, 1187, wlp006.

Malt forward: 1318, 1968, 1469, 1028, 1882, wlp037.

Favorites: 1318, 1469, 1882, 1768, wlp006.

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I meant to say "liquid" alternatives, it was implied but not expressed. I agree, not nearly as many dry strains available.

Got a little of that sour aftertaste in my brown. I was a little dissappointed. It has only been 4 weeks though since yeast pitch, and flavor would improve within the next 4 weeks regardless of what yeast I used. But probably not improve the yeast flavor. Nothing to do but sit tight I guess. And go back to other english strains.

Yeah, I keep trying one every week. Flavor hasn't budged an inch so far, I'll probably give up and just drink them all around the 1 month mark.

Got really excited last time when I got a chocolate aroma that wasn't there before, but the taste was the same, so maybe there's hope.

Never had issues with S04 and use it for about 60% of my beers, although I've been using Gervin lately as it is slightly cheaper. I use it for pretty much everything apart from lagers, wheat beers and IPAs. I've fermented as high as the mid to high 70s, but generally around the 66F mark and I've never had any "Funky" or "off" flavours; Just the sort of flavours a British beer should impart. I think a lot of Americans on here just aren't used to British beers and how they are supposed to taste.

This taste is not the way a British beer should taste....if this is a correct taste for a beer I will give it up right now....

I've had many British beers, and Hobgoblin is among my favorites. I realize many of the British beers we import are heavily oxidized by the time they get to us and the 'British' taste we think of is very different when fresh, but I can't imagine it's -that- different.

My main issue with s-04 is that it doesn't pack well. I have several bottles of a pale ale I brewed at the beginning of the summer. After being in the fridge for a few weeks, I'll pour a glass and it will inevitably have some lees settle in the glass. This doesn't happen with my US-05 beers.

S04 will pretty much ferment out a 1050 wort in about 2 days normally, but I keep my beers in the primary for at least 3 weeks, and normally 4 or more. I seriously have never experienced off flavours with S04. Certainly there is occasionally a fruitiness, but never anything "Funky". Due to its aggressive nature, I can't help thinking that S04 doesn't play well with others and isn't keen on regular inspections. I leave my beers for a month undisturbed....I don't even open the fermenter. It may be this that has kept oxygen and possibly other yeasts away from my beer which has led to the good results I've had with S04.

It forms a VERY compact yeast cake (unlike US05) and flocculates beautifully. As I said earlier, I've been using Gervin and getting great results, but I have to say that this is VERY similar to S04. I've yet to have results I am happy with using S33 (The EDME strain).

WLP2 English Ale yeast or WY ESB are probably good alternatives...

I decided to 'go against the grain' and use 2 packets of S-04 anyway for my smoked porter w/ sweet potatoes. Rehydrated in about 200ml of sterile water for an hour beforehand, pitched in 1.070 wort @ 60F.

It's been two days now and there was quite a bit of blow off but not quite as violent as with other yeasts I used in similar beers. Unfortunately I also had to siphon a gallon off in another carboy because of some unexpected weldless bulkhead problems (miscalculated volumes!)... so I actually have two batches. Poured most of the yeast in the 5 gal batch and tried to eyeball for the rest (it took a bit longer to become active... hopefully that wasnt underpitched!)

I'll report back in a month or so.

you should be way fine with 2 packs in 1.070. Go to mrmalty.com to check out pitching rates... also yeastcalc.com is cool too

Hopper5000 said:

you should be way fine with 2 packs in 1.070. Go to mrmalty.com to check out pitching rates... also yeastcalc.com is cool too

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Yep but as I said, I eyeballed the volumes and ended up with 0.5 gallon too much because my weldless bulkhead failed on brew day (urrghh! Worked twice before) so I had to bust out the old turkey fryer pot. I was actually supposed to end up with 5.5 gals of 1.086SG wort... Oh well! Gotta leak proof that keggle now. I'm sure it's gonna be fine either way.

Halfafudgecake said:

S04 will pretty much ferment out a 1050 wort in about 2 days normally, but I keep my beers in the primary for at least 3 weeks, and normally 4 or more. I seriously have never experienced off flavours with S04. Certainly there is occasionally a fruitiness, but never anything "Funky". Due to its aggressive nature, I can't help thinking that S04 doesn't play well with others and isn't keen on regular inspections. I leave my beers for a month undisturbed....I don't even open the fermenter. It may be this that has kept oxygen and possibly other yeasts away from my beer which has led to the good results I've had with S04.

It forms a VERY compact yeast cake (unlike US05) and flocculates beautifully. As I said earlier, I've been using Gervin and getting great results, but I have to say that this is VERY similar to S04. I've yet to have results I am happy with using S33 (The EDME strain).

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Pretty much exactly what I do - brew, leave it alone for 3 weeks minus 3 days, take a gravity reading, wait 3 days, gravity reading then bottle.

don't you lose a lot of hop aroma if you leave it in primary that long?

Padalac said:

don't you lose a lot of hop aroma if you leave it in primary that long?

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If you are making an IPA, you should be dry-hopping anyway. Most other beers focus on yeast and malt aromas.

Well, two weeks later at 60-62F the gravity is at 1.014 (OG 1.070)! That's quite a bit lower than I expected (mashed at 153F and figured I'd be at around 1.018). Way too early to tell about taste but it was quite smoky - not sure if I'll throw some vanilla in there still.

Very surprised to see s-04 attenuating that much - hopefully not a sign of an infection.

I'm gonna go against the grain here a bit.

I've had nothing but great beers from S-04. Most recently it fermented a great Ordinary Bitter which took a 1st place in a LHBC. I've also used it to brew a mock-vienna lager which also placed in 3 different homebrew competitions. It has also been the backbone of an Imperial Stout which consistently placed as well.

For me it always ferments quickly and leaves a sparkling clear beer. The esthers are prevalent when fermented on the hot side (70 and up) which in some cases is actually desirable. I find that the attentuation can be improved by rousing up the lees every now and then. Since it so willingly forms such a compact sediment it is quite necessary to stir it up every once in a while (especially when fermenting in the cooler range).

My Scotch ale tasted pretty good when I racked to secondary (1.075), no off flavors that I detected. I pitched yeast from a partial cake from the NewCastle clone, which still tastes a little off. Difference was a 62F ferment for the scotch and a 68F ferment for the brown. I will say the brown is getting better as it sits in a cool basement room, but I will have to start drinking them by Christmas, as I will need the bottles.