Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

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Last Sunday we had a party here and I tapped 8 kegs. Six were from this year, plus the last sweet one from last year, and a real dry one from 3 years ago. The most popular was the WLP041 keg from this year, with the Wy3333 keg a close second. I didnt break out the Brupaks or Wy3056 kegs, cause those are still my favorites from the last round and I want to make them last a while. I plan on using WLP041 a lot more this year. Real easy to work with and folks liked it a lot.

We did another juice run for the brew club yesterday. 176 gallons of Stayman, Fuji, Gala and Winesap apples. sg was 1.058. I got 51 gallons for myself - 8 six gallon keg batches and 3 one gallon jugs to test some new yeasts from Mauribrew

For the keg batches, I pitched yeast in 4 of the carboys. Wy3056, Wy3068, Brupaks Ale and US05. I put the other 4 carboys in the fridge to clear for a few days. After they clear, I'm going to rack the clear juice off and pitch the same yeasts for comparison. The guy who runs the press clears his ciders like this and they always come out looking and tasting great. Last pressing I tried this with a test gallon. I didnt ferment it, just wanted to see the difference in raw juice between cleared and cloudy. The cleared juice was nice and smooth, with a silky mouth feel and good flavor, although I liked the cloudy stuff better. It started sweeter, with a heavier mouthfeel and more aroma. So my expectation is that the cleared batches are going to look better, but the cloudy ones will taste better. Should know for certain in a few weeks.
 
CvilleKevin said:
I didnt realize that there were so many different answers to this question. I've always used the formula in Anne Proulx's book, "Cider", which says 4.5oz sugar per gallon for 10 points. Ben Watson's Cider book has the same formula. So 18 points would be 8.1 oz per gallon. That works out to a little over 3 pounds or 1.38kg - which is somewhere in between what dinnerstick and jlem got. I have no idea which of these numbers is the 'right' one, but 3 pounds plus or minus ought to get you in the ballpark.



I went with 3 pounds and that put me at 1.068. Thats ok though, it's bubbling away with an S04 starter.
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Great Post! This is the way you do trial and error! :) This is what makes brewing a science.
 
CvilleKevin said:
Now the challenge will be to find enough friends who are willing to drink 12 different liters of essentially the same recipe with various clearing agents, to pick out off flavors.
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If they drink the 12 liters all in the same evening please record it and put it up for viewing. I may occasionally drink too much but drinking a case and a half ought to make for some fantastic video fodder. :tank:
 
That's 12 liters cumulatively - not apiece! That's actually a fairly light evening. I generally try to have about twice as many tasters as liters, otherwise things could get sloppy.
 
Very cool progress. Looks like we are pressing this weekend and we are getting 80 bushels, 20 of each Northern Spy, Gala, Jonagold and Red Delicious. I am really looking forward to seeing how the N. Spy plays into this cider this year. A bunch of this will be sent home with family and friends... but not before we fill the fermenters. I think i am going to do a large vat of L1118 for draft cider, and I might play around with notty, 3068, and dry mead yeast. I am also considering a cyser with some buckwheat honey or orange blossom - just found a local source!

I may try to serve a live actively fermenting cider during the ferment. Low ABV, something I start a couple days in front for gimmicky value. I have done this before and it is fun because you get a carbonated live cider that is good tasting if you don't let it get too far. But the last time I did it was in college... so I can't remember the lead time...
 
we are getting 80 bushels, 20 of each Northern Spy, Gala, Jonagold and Red Delicious
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Nice! You might want to get some tarts to throw into that mix. Jonathan, Winesap, York, etc. Around here there is only one orchard that has Northern Spys and they hardly had any #2s. I was happy to get 3 bushels last weekend. I'm hoping to blend them with some Albemarle Pippens, but they are even harder to find this year. We have a bunch of new commercial cideries in the area and they are buying up all the pippins.

I just racked the 4 carboys from the last pressing that I had set clearing in the fridge. They didnt clear very much. The raw juice from the first pressing cleared after a few days sitting in the fridge. This juice has been in the fridge 5 days and its still as cloudy as the day it was pressed. There was some consolidated solids on the bottom of the carboys, but not much. Tasted kinda gritty and chalky. Now I'm waiting for the carboys to warm up enough to pitch the yeast. Not sure I really accomplished anything by letting them settle, other than giving the wild yeast a 5 day head start. Time will tell I suppose.
 
Yeah I wish I had some of those I could grab. Unfortunately the only apples I could get aside form those listed are cortland, empire, mac, and a few others at reasonable prices. I had one jack wagon tell me he could sell me a 20 bushel bin of golden delicious for $300!!! I was like... no thanks a-hole...

The spys have some tartness, but man it would be cool to have a bunch of crab apples. Those are the breaks when you are at the whim of your supplier (hence why have have planted my own mini orchard with about 35 trees - now the wait).

Turns out that the orchard was running low on red delicious and subbed in some spygolds and empires to fill the last 1/8 of the bin. Man spygolds are a really nice apple too.

Last year I couldn't get any spy's besides my own trees, but this year I was thrilled to get a bin. They say spys make a good single varietal. I have never done it on its own, but the orchard near me makes a nice spy wine.

The plan for this year is, make a good drinking fresh cider and then make a lot of draft cider. When you can't get certain apples (tarts) you are really limited. Still makes good cider, just not vintage.

I did plant some Kingston blacks, yarlington mill, bulmars norman, roxbury russet, frequin rouge and cox orange pippins for english and french cider apples this spring (among others). I can't wait until they start producing. probably at least 3-5 years for those.
 
CvilleKevin said:
I just racked the 4 carboys from the last pressing that I had set clearing in the fridge.
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I am interested to see how this turns out. It sort of goes against my thought that keeping all the gunk in the ferment helps somehow - but I have never tried the other side of it.

Under normal circumstances (even when I drink fresh pressed) I shake up the sediment to bring it back into suspension and drink it, or add to the fermenter like that. I know I read articles in the newspaper that claimed that the sediment from fresh pressed cider is very healthy, though not sure if that is the case when it starts fermenting. I assumed it might have nutrients to help the ferment though. Purely conjecture though!
 
The spys have some tartness, but man it would be cool to have a bunch of crab apples.
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Will Hewe's Crab grow in your area? They would be a great addition to your orchard. Good tanin, acid and high sugar. Also large for a crab so you can pick a bushel in a reasonable amount of time.

Those are the breaks when you are at the whim of your supplier (hence why have have planted my own mini orchard with about 35 trees - now the wait).
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I've been tempted to do that as well, although I dont have much space. Fortunately several of the local orchards are picking up on the popularity of cider apples and planting more varieties. Hopefully within a few years they will be able to keep up with demand.

I am interested to see how this turns out. It sort of goes against my thought that keeping all the gunk in the ferment helps somehow
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Yeah, clearing the cider beforehand is counter-intuitive to me as well, but having seen the results I figured I'd give it a shot. Not sure if I accomplished anything on this round tho, because they didnt clear much after 5 days in the fridge.

It will be interesting to see how well the ciders from the most recent pressing clear compared to the previous pressing. All of these apple types (Stayman, Gala, Fuji and Winesap) are ones that I've used before and they've cleared well after fermentation, although it occurs to me that it is relatively early in the season for all of these apples except for the Gala. For the last pressing, most of the apples I used were later in their respective seasons and probably riper, which may have been why they cleared so well.

OTOH, while ripeness may account for some of difference in clearing, the amount of water they got while ripening could also make a difference. Last year the ciders were tougher to clear than usual, even with similar apples, picked at about the same time. That summer ended a lot dryer than normal, which may have had effect as well. This year we had good rains at the end of the summer so hopefully that will bode well for clearing of the cider post-ferment.
 
The current batch of cider I have on tap is brilliantly clear, and I did absolutely nothing to make it so. It was pasteurized juice, and I treated it like every other batch(CK's method), used S05, added 1 lb sugar in the raw. No idea why it's so clear, no idea on what the apple mix was, it was from Millers..., but it's awesome and the taste is amazing. I really want to give filtering a try so they could all look so good, but a filter is yet one more piece to buy...
 
funny year over here, summer was rubbish, lots of rain, apple trees went absolutely mad, bumper crop, one week of warm weather at the beginning of october, everything ripened. people are coming out of the woodwork giving me shopping bags of apples from their uncle's tree. this jug is about 80% unknown very tart small green variety (which made itself into a banging wild yeast cider last year, i'm still holding onto a few bottles!) and the rest goudreinet, usually a cooker but some people eat them peeled. very watery (1.038), but very sharp, and very stripey.
going to supplement with a bagful of 'liberated' small red crabs (1.062!) and possibly a pinch of sugar, pitch s04, and try kevin's "cold crash at 1.010 and keg" method for the first time
xdscuw.jpg

then, i will get drunk
 
I'm doing my second batch using your methods.... local, untreated cider, Notty yeast, Crash cooling based on taste and hydro readings, racked off the yeast to a secondary and stored at 32 F. Last year, the cider didn't clear after weeks in the secondary, so I added gelatin.... which I have used successfully in the past to clarify beer. Big mistake. The cider became more cloudy and never improved. Kegged and carbed, it was delicious, however.

Fast forward to this fall.... same procedure, only this time I used Super Kleer, which had worked very well in my mead. Although it has not become more cloudy, after a week, I am seeing no signs of clarifying.

Is it too late to try peptic enzyme or will it cause flavor issues this late in the process?

TIA and thanks for all postings... I read all 50-odd pages over a few days and there's lots of helpful info here.
 
Is it too late to try peptic enzyme or will it cause flavor issues this late in the process?
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I dont know - the whole issue of clarity is still something I'm trying to figure out. The only way I've found so far to clear the cider that is 100 percent reliable is to use unpasteurized juice, dont heat the juice, dont use apples with high pectin content and add 2-3 pounds of honey before fermentation. Following the first three rules and skipping the honey seems to result in clear cider about 90 percent of the time, but I'm not sure what it is that keeps that last 10 percent from clearing. And last year it was lot worse, more like 30 percent that didnt clear - at least not for a while. Eventually they do all seem to clear by late Spring, but that is a long time to tie up a secondary.
 
Thanks. This batch is for the holidays, so if its not clear by Thanksgiving, its into the cornie no matter what.

After thinking about it I have an avenue for experimentation.... I have a 5 G carboy and a 3/4 full 1 G carboy of cider both treated with Super Kleer and cold conditioning. (I started w/ 6 gallons). I'll experiment with the small batch, and if I screw it up, no biggie.

So how how much peptic enzyme per gallon?
 
So how how much peptic enzyme per gallon?
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I used the amount on the label, which was 1/2 tsp per gallon. That is interesting that the Super Kleer didnt work for you. It worked great on my test batch, although I cant vouch for the taste yet. How long did you wait between adding the two parts?
 
CvilleKevin said:
I used the amount on the label, which was 1/2 tsp per gallon. That is interesting that the Super Kleer didnt work for you. It worked great on my test batch, although I cant vouch for the taste yet. How long did you wait between adding the two parts?
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I think it was an hour.... whatever it said on the instructions. I'm wondering whether its a problem that the cider was cold. My results with my mead were fast and dramatic, so I'm puzzled as well.

It might be the apples. This is a local with lots of wild apple trees on his property. Probably an orchard at some time in the distant past, but not any kind of commercial orchard with defined varieties.

I tried a scant 1/2 tsp of enzyme on the smaller batch.

Thanks again for your help.

Cheers.
 
I checked my gravity yesterday and it was at 1.018 and still bubbling. It tasted good so I kegged it and put it in the fridge. I don't have room to cold crash with a carboy before I keg so hopefully everything will settle and either get sucked out within the first glass or two or I may have to transfer over to another keg.
 
hopefully everything will settle and either get sucked out within the first glass or two
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I've never tried this before, but it should work. The first day or two should drop a lot of sediment, so you probably want to pour at least a pint or two a day for the first few days until it is running clear. It will be muddy at first but drinkable and lots of B vitamins. Just dont eat/drink anything with a lot of sugar before drinking the cider, because those first few pints will have a lot of viable yeast in them. Probably also wouldnt hurt to give the keg a gentle shake each day so that the sediment on the bottom moves into the little dimple at the bottom where the end of the keg's liquid tube goes.

I see drums in the background -- any effect after a loud jam?
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A few pints makes the drummer sound better. Not necessarily play better.
 
Cider36.jpg


Last night, while watching the last game of the World Series with a buddy, we checked out the results of last years clarifier experiments.

Most of the batches had gone to vinegar - it was late in the season when I did these, and I let them sit around a little too long before bottling. The exception was the batch that I cleared with super-klear - it cleared so fast that I bottled it before the others and it had no vinegar taste. It was a little dry, but nice clean and refreshing. The batches that I added pectic enzyme to before pitching yeast had a little less vinegar, but that was because they cleared faster and were bottled earlier than the batches without the enzyme in the beginning. Other than the vinegar, none of the batches tasted off, but that was a pretty major flaw.

So bottom line, I botched the clarifier experiments by letting them sit around for too long before bottle. The super kleer still managed to come out OK.

last year was the second year that I didnt use k-meta for any of the batches, and while they were all drinkable earlier, there was an effect on storage - I had a few kegs that went to vinegar over the summer. One thing I noticed is that before picking up the vinegar taste, the kegs that turned picked up a malic acid taste that wasnt bad at first, but kept building until too strong, then turned to vinegar. Its normal for the ciders to finish with a malic acid bite that mellows after a few months, but in this case the malic acid taste was increasing in time instead of decreasing. This season I'm going to continue to skip the k-meta before pitching, but if any of the kegs pick up a malic acid taste in the spring, I'll add some k-meta then.
 
This is my first attempt to make a cider in the style of Crispin's "The Saint", using the methods that have been kindly refined and documented on this thread :) It is also my first attempt at cider from freshly pressed juice.

I made my batch from ~5.5g fresh pressed, un-pasteurized juice (50% Granny Smith and 50% mixed apples), 12oz of Maple syrup and about 20oz of dextrose. I created a starter with some apple juice, Fermaid-k, and WPL500 yeast. Pitched it at ~72 degrees and fermentation was going strong 12 hours later.

After 4-5 days (don't have my notes handy) I checked the OG and it was down to 1008, lower than I intended and therefore with much less apple flavor and sweetness than I intended. I still had close to a gallon of the original apple juice left so I simply added it back in to 1014 and cold crashed it. This got plenty of apple taste back in there but it was still very thin tasting.

It's still sitting in the fridge crashing but the thin although apply taste has me worried, is that par for the course right after primary fermentation and if so, how much aging have people found necessary to overcome it?

I made a batch of EdWorts Apfelwein last year it it was incredibly thin, a year later and it is a lot better, it wasn't my plan to age this for a month, never mind a year :)

Cheers

HW
 
the thin although apply taste has me worried, is that par for the course right after primary fermentation and if so, how much aging have people found necessary to overcome it?
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My experience is that a lot of the body, and some sweetness also, will come back after crashing in the fridge for a couple days. It will be even better when its carbed. I'm not sure why this is. Sometimes the cider will still have some rough edges for a while, particularly if there is a lot of tannin and/or acid. This may take a week or two to settle out. If you go dry, the resulting acids can take some time to mellow, but if you stopped it when the normal ferment was 1.008 and then added juice, this should not be a problem. k-meta can also leave a harsh taste that can take a couple months to mellow. YMMV.
 
I occasionally get what I call wet trashcan bottom notes that go away given enough time. Is there a way around this?
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Not sure what you mean by wet trashcan. wet cardboard? thats from oxidation.
 
It's not the oxidation taste as I screwed up one before. I'm afraid it's too hot for the yeast but I'm not having the same issue with beer. I have been using cane as I can't find corn sugar around here also. I've got a second one running at 66 tho. Plus age seems to beat that taste down somewhat.
 
Tastes like the smell in the bottom of a trash can when you go to wash it out is the best description but alternatively I would say the tang of sour milk with the flavor of licorice added.

Pasteurized but unfiltered gala. Montracet (which may have been somewhat old as I screwed up my rotation in the move) yeast.
 
alternatively I would say the tang of sour milk with the flavor of licorice added.
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I dont believe I've ever run into anything like that before. perhaps some sort of infection due to low acidity? galas make a great flavor/aroma apple, but dont have much acidity. They are good mixed with some tart apples (granny smith, york, winesap, etc) and something a little heavier to hold down the bottom, but I doubt they would make a good single varietal.
 
Accidic - http://morebeer.com/content/homebrew-off-flavors

Check that out. Sounds like you could have a couple things going on. That is beer specific but you might be able to pick out a few of the things that might be at play based on your situation.

Montrachet is known to produce a fair amount of sulfur, so that might be part of it.

It sounds like you might have had a bacterial thing, or wrong wild yeast fermenting thing. Did you sulphite your cider 24hrs before pitching? ? did you put yeast nutrient in your must? What were the conditions of your ferment, yeast stressing a lot due to temp, nutrient, etc.?

Ask yourself a few questions and I think you will come up with your answer. I haven't used Montrachet on cider because I have heard a lot of people complain about sulfur. But I have never had those kind of smells in a cider.
 
It's a storebrand so it has Ascorbic Acid added making it a little less sweet than other Gala juices.

Going from that list Cidah it seems like it would fit somewhere between DMS and Skunky tastewise but that doesn't really fit given it's apple based rather than grain/hops (speaking of which... note to self, must look up hopped cider).

I didn't sulphite as it was pasteurized but I did add a 1/2 dose of DAP and a 1/4 dose of Yeast Energizer out of habit from various Meads/Cysers I've done to avoid yeast stress but it never quite tasted like this. Temp was approx 73-74 throughout fermentation and has actually dropped a bit as it got colder outside. I always thought the sulfur notes people mentioned would smell rather fart like but I don't think I've personally ran into it. Just thought maybe someone ran into similar with all the different types of apples. :) I don't think I've ever noticed an Autolyzed flavor either but I've wondered if maybe that came into play here.

The very first cider I ever did had a similar smell but I never actually tasted it and I threw it out at a young age. I didn't touch this one until much later down the line and the smell is barely recognizable and mild enough I can choke it down but not happily. There was a lot more head space in this one (bucket) than my other batch (Glass Carboy) so if it's not the temp and is just an oxidized taste which I've only ran into with beer to be fair hopefully it will be history. Alternatively I was just a little concerned I might have an infection with the plastic fermenting bucket. I'm hoping time will cure all wounds though.

Either way, thanks for considering it just the same.
 
your describing some pretty rank smells/tastes. I would lean on something bacterial (you would be tasting for vinegary and not sour for that). Oxidation is possible. But I am of the mind you really have to screw that up royal to get oxidation if your drinking it young like that. If the cider was sitting around for a long time that would be difference. Maybe some autolysing?

DMS shouldn't be present in your cider, it is grain related.

Are you cleaning and sanitizing?
 
Yeah, but this particular batch is in a plastic bucket fermenter but it's only the 3rd batch of anything (Mead (racked off after 6wks) > SP > Cider) to touch the plastic so I was hoping against infection but it's certainly possible I guess. I do clean with bleach rather frequently and then rinse several times with distilled water. I honestly can't say that I know what autolysing tastes like. I've been really fortunate (knock on wood) to have very few issues with the beer, wine, and mead I've made over the years for the most part and haven't known if I ran into that one. It's not critical as I've got another 5g in pipe and it's certainly drinkable still (it goes down really smoothly, just the faint off taste is kind of rough). I wonder if adding a bit of sugar and making it sparkling would mask the off enough to not notice it.
 
Accidic said:
Going from that list Cidah it seems like it would fit somewhere between DMS and Skunky tastewise but that doesn't really fit given it's apple based rather than grain/hops
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At first I was betting on Montrachet, but after hearing it was long termed in a plastic bucket, it could very well have been oxidation or a bacterial issue. The plastic is permeable. It can allow O2 to oxydize the contents; or to fuel aceto, lacto, and/or malo-lactic fermentations. If it was long termed on the yeast cake, autolysis is also a possibility. If it is just straight sour cream with a bit of vinegar, I wish I was close enough to trade you for a few. I have a thing for (very) sour beers, and want to try to make a sour cider.

I can't remember if it was this thread, or another, but there was some detailed info on degassing if excessive sulfur was being produced, and what can happen if you don't. I think a major issue was it turning into mercaptan (stink added to natural gas). It may not have been accurate or pertaining to cider, so don't take my word for it. I haven't had enough sulfur production to worry about researching mitigation techniques.

Accidic said:
(speaking of which... note to self, must look up hopped cider).
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Do a search for "Graff". There is a lenghty thread on it. Believe what they say about going VERY easy on the hops, even if you like hops. I may try another batch with just a small late citrusy hop addition.

Accidic said:
I didn't sulphite as it was pasteurized but I did add a 1/2 dose of DAP and a 1/4 dose of Yeast Energizer out of habit from various Meads/Cysers I've done to avoid yeast stress but it never quite tasted like this.
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"Energizers" are usually very close to straight DAP. "Nutrients" usually have some mineral and vitamin mixes along with some dead yeast for cell building stuff, and many times some DAP as well. I think I remember reading that adding DAP only in a low nutrient wort/must (like cider is), can stress the yeast more than no DAP. Hightest in the Mead forum has some really good info on energizers, nutrients, amounts, nutrient timing, etc. I am still trying to figure out some good homebrewed yeast nutrient mixes for various uses based on his info. I don't like paying $5 for a spoonful of "name brand" nutrient in a ziplock.

Accidic said:
Temp was approx 73-74 throughout fermentation and has actually dropped a bit as it got colder outside.
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Colder fermentations usually result in less yeast esters. Low 60's is what I shoot for.
It sounds like you ferment to completion. Maybe give some info on your process. I know Kevin recommends stopping it a bit early to retain some apple flavor. I have let a couple go too far, and it stays winey for some time. I wish they would breed a yeast that stops on its own before it eats the apple flavor.
 
How many points of gravity normally drop before it's cold enough to pause fermentation? I assume this varies by yeast, but can anybody give me a generalization...?

My batch using WLP500 appears to have lost 10 points which was a lot more than I expected :( I added kmeta and sorbate along with another gallon of juice to try and bring back some sweetness and apply flavor, then threw it back in the fridge.

I guess the WLP500 is a pretty aggressive fermenter :|

Cheers

HW
 
After a few months in secondary, my S-04 cider dropped really low, around 1.000, yet it still tastes pleasantly sweet. I tend to like drier ciders, but there seems to be a big difference between ale and wine yeasts in cider, even with equal FGs.
 
I'm actually down to half a gallon (it's my smallest fermenter) and I was thinking about dumping that to 12oz bottles and make it sparkling. I have not degassed it as a whole but I did degas half of the last sample I pulled from it. The taste is hard for me to put my finger on and I'm not sure I'm doing it justice. I'm interested in the Natural Gas thing. It's been a long while since I did anything with it (heck, my ng fireplace is blocked off by an old tv atm) but that may very well be it.

I think my nutrient and energizer are flipflopped. My "nutrient" is basically just DAP from best I can tell. My Energizer looks like the pulverized mish-mash of dead yeast, nutrients, and probably a little DAP as well.

My process isn't much of a process. :) Depending on my juice source at least. If I can get it bottled then it's half poured in, half used to dissolve any added sugars and a dash of DAP/Nutrient. Then I pitch the yeast, seal, and leave untouched for a couple months at the very least. As I tend to like mine dry I'm perfectly fine with it fermenting out to oblivion :). I touched this one to pull out samples at around 8 weeks for the first time. I guess at this point I'm pushing closer to 3mos give or take a little (I'd have to look at my journal to get an actual date) so I was trying to decide on what to do with the last little bit. I've got a 5g batch also in the pipes that's part apfelwine-like and part wild apple (I don't get enough to crush a full gallon from my grandfather's trees) running with 3g of Montracet and 3g of 71B-1122 (with a Pectic Enzyme added) otherwise the acidity is overwhelming. I normally use the whole 71B but was short this time so figured I'd use the leftover Montracet which I had vac-sealed from the above mentioned Gala batch. I did have some issues with foam over which I cleaned up in the first several days but since it has been left untouched (and under the kitchen table coincidently) for 8.5 weeks now. About two weeks ago it began to clear the final part of the haze and it looks extremely close to being crystal clear at this point last I glanced at it. My initial thought was to mix the two but when the results on the other batch came out to not be what I expected I've kinda scrapped that idea and have been procrastinating having to make a decision of what to do with it. :)

I have a lot of crazy concoctions lined up of varying types but generally I subscribe to the "Set it and forget it." mentality unless I'm going for something that specifically requires nutrient or other type additives throughout the process (such as a mead for example). My other two fermenters have a batch of Muscadine & Asian Pear and the other a Frankenbeer that has everything save the kitchen sink thrown at it. :)
 
My batch using WLP500 appears to have lost 10 points which was a lot more than I expected
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I crashed my WLP500 batch at 1.012 and it stopped dead in its tracks. Finished the last bottle about a year later and it had retained all of the residual sweetness.

How many points of gravity normally drop before it's cold enough to pause fermentation?
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I usually crash wheat yeasts between 1.010 and 1.020 and ale yeasts between 1.006 and 1.012

A few things to keep in mind when crashing:
1) rack the fermenting cider off the trub, then crash, then rack again. Dont skip steps. Be really careful that you dont pick up any yeast on the last rack.
2) dont add nutrients if you plan to stop via cold crashing. The main point of nutrients is to ensure complete fermentation and prevent stuck fermentations. The whole point of cold crashing is to cause a stuck fermentation.
3) use organic (ie no nitrogen fertilizer) unpasteurized juice if you can get it.
4) ferment cool and slow. Ideally keep the temp around 60-65, with the gravity dropping about a point a day at the time of the crash. Its harder to stop a fast moving ferment.
5) when you do the crash, get the cider as cold as you can, as fast as possible. The idea is to shock the yeast into floc'ing
6) not all yeasts will floc when cold shocked. most ale and wheat yeasts crash fairly easily. Most lager, champagne and wine yeasts do not.
7) when crashing for the first time, its a good idea to rack back to a carboy and let it come up to room temp for a couple of weeks, so you can make sure its stable. If the ferment starts up, you can crash it again. If you are in a hurry, you can go straight to a keg after the crash. It will stay stable if you keep the keg cold, but it will be riskier to fill bottles for friends because you wont know for sure if you really got all the yeast out.
 
CvilleKevin said:
2) dont add nutrients if you plan to stop via cold crashing. The main point of nutrients is to ensure complete fermentation and prevent stuck fermentations. The whole point of cold crashing is to cause a stuck fermentation.
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This was undoubtedly one of my mistakes, I used Fermaid-K. A couple of days later I had done some more reading and realized it was probably a mistake, now I know it was.

I wasn't able to keep my fermentation temps down that low either, I was more like 70-75 most of the time. It's cooled off a lot now though, good excuse to start again :)

Another was probably creating a good healthy starter, seemed like a good idea at the time, and for most projects it would have been, wasn't really thinking it through now I look back though.

I guess that's three strikes so I am probably not getting what I was aiming for this time, hopefully aging it brings it around to something I can at least enjoy!

After the last add of AJ (yesterday) it went straight back in the fridge, now I see another good layer of sediment in the bottom of the carboy, about the same amount I racked it off of yesterday in fact! Some of that doubtless came from the fresh AJ but I am wondering if letting it warm up some (to about 50 deg) and then chilling it again dropped more yeast. The other thing I noticed is that the stick on strip thermometer on the carboy is reading 44 degrees after 24 hours in the fridge. I know the fridge is working fine as I froze a thermometer in a glass of water that I was checking with...I guess the strip therm. could just be lousy...or maybe it just takes more than 24 hours to drop 6.5g of fluid from 50 to 30 something?

All in all, in retrospect I think the smarter thing to do would have been to use S-04 and keep it as "by the book" as possible on my first fresh juice batch...oh well, que sera sera.

If I can get this stable and free up the fridge space maybe I'll just leave it to age at room temp and start over afresh with S-04 and no nutrient...not sure how SWMBO is going to feel about that though :|

Cheers

HW
 
If i'm using dry yeast I'll just pitch but you get such good results with so many different yeast options I will often use whatever yeast I have on hand (washed) and will use starters (small ones, 0.5-0.7l) with store brand juices. They work great for boosting counts slightly and you can quickly cold crash it with 30m in the freezer then move to the fridge for 12-24hrs if you want to pour off the spent juice which I would highly recommend with smaller batches although with 5g and 10g batches it doesn't seem to be necessary.

The above "issued" batch was from dry tho. :(
 
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