2 rancid batches

Hi all,
I've been pouring over this awesome website and need some help. My first two batches of beer have been horrible. I'm planning on attempting my third batch today and am looking for advice on how to avoid a dumper.
My first batch was an all extract Irish Stout (Coopers). I know a few things I did wrong: I boiled with the lid on, my husband in a vain attempt to help me start a siphon when racking to secondary blew backwards through the hose (cringe). I used diluted bleach for my first sterilization process, and then switched to iodophor for sanitization during my transfer to secondary and bottling.
My OG started out 1.053, dropped to 1.016 at secondary and then increased to 1.028 when racking to bottles. (I'm guessing EXTREME infection).
Friends reported a 'wine' like taste, saying it was very fruity.

My second batch was a milk stout kit with a grain steep. I overshot my OG and F.G. was over as well, with my ABV sitting almost a full 1% low. I took extra care with sanitation, and replaced my husband as a siphoner with an auto-siphon
Unfortunately, it came out horrible again (worse, if it is possible). It smelled like the first one when bottling, but it tasted ok (not great, but drinkable). After bottling though it was rancid. I replaced my hoses and my bucket prior to the second batch out of fear it was a lacto infection.

Through this site, I realized that I needed to put water/vodka in my airlock, which I was not aware of during the first two batches. I have a mini fridge that I use for temperature controlled fermentation (68F).Could the airlock be the cause of my awful beer?

Any suggestions would be great. I just want to make good beer

Describe the bad taste. Metallic? Plastic? Astringent? Wet musty cardboard? Tart? Bitter? The airlock isn't a huge deal, unless you are noticing a obvious infection, there is enough CO2 in the bucket to keep it ok. How fast are you cooling the wort? How hot are you fermenting? Boiling with the lid on may have attributed, but if you are doing extract it shouldn't be too bad.

Doesn't sound like your mistakes were enough to cause two batches to be undrinkable. I would try different water, like bottled spring water. See if that fixes the problem.

How long did you wait? Patience is key...

The best way I can describe the taste is fruity, but a VERY bad fruity flavor. A friend even mentioned that it reminded him of wine in a way.
I try to cool the wort pretty quickly, maybe 1.5 hours tops, though now I have the swing of it and can get it to pitching temp in less than an hour. I have been using bottled spring/drinking water. I did ~1.5 weeks in primary fermentation and then another 3 weeks in secondary (all between 66-70F), and a couple of weeks in the bottle (tasted it again at about a month and there was no improvement). I noticed little white specks floating in it during secondary, but assumed that was spent yeast that hadn't dropped yet.
Could aeration during the transfers cause an issue like this? I've read you don't want to aerate once you pitch the yeast, but I don't know what happens if you do...

Thanks for all of your help so far!

Sounds like sanitation issues. What kind of sanitizer are you using? Certainly not putting liquid in the airlock exposed it to oxygen and any acetobactor that got in there would make some vinegar with all that oxygen.

also what is the purpose of racking into a secondary. Its best to let that thing sit in the primary for at least 3 weeks (your first few beers IMO at least) so you get the process down of PATIENCE! Never a rush.

Unless you need to rack a beer on POUNDS OF FRUIT or something like that- relax! No need to worry-

If you need your primary to make more beer- and therefore wanted to rack in a secondary - get this- BUY A NEW FERMENTER BUCKET! YAY! Well- thats a good suggestion- or even another carboy-

And use that "secondary- haha" as a primary -something else- like Apfelwein. Yea you will like that idea down the line.

mikemet said:

also what is the purpose of racking into a secondary. Its best to let that thing sit in the primary for at least 3 weeks (your first few beers IMO at least) so you get the process down of PATIENCE! Never a rush.

Unless you need to rack a beer on POUNDS OF FRUIT or something like that- relax! No need to worry-

If you need your primary to make more beer- and therefore wanted to rack in a secondary - get this- BUY A NEW FERMENTER BUCKET! YAY! Well- thats a good suggestion- or even another carboy-

And use that "secondary- haha" as a primary -something else- like Apfelwein. Yea you will like that idea down the line.

Click to expand...

That's exactly what I did. I used the carboy once and now it has Edworts appfelwein in it. Probably won't ever hold beer again. This batch of appfelwein will be done and it will be time to start another!

Thanks. I use iodophor right now.
Everything I've read on here and in books has made the suggestion of a little more than 1 week in primary and then rack to secondary. I know you can go longer than 1 week in primary, but I've read it's not necessary and down to personal preference. I'm planning on just doing the entire fermentation in the glass carboy to simplify things and to limit introduction of infection.

1 week in primary really is not enough, 2 weeks can barely be enough, and 3 weeks is probably what most around here see. Forget the secondary until you get the first successful batch under your belt.

The "fruity" beer reminds me of my early/green beers. For me it was a combination of the temperature being too high during fermentation and bottling too early. More specifically I found the high fermentation temperature resulted in the fruity taste and the early bottling taste was more of a cider/vinegar flavor. The combination sounds like what you're describing and it is an easy fix.

Also, maybe more importantly, what yeast are you using? I'd bet it was a yeast/time or temperature issue. Some yeast are extremely sensitive to temperature/time and commonly cause bad/fruity flavors from my experience.

Good luck

I am also newbie and have only 3 batches under my belt. My first came out amazing and even the guys at the LHBS agreed. Beginner's luck. The second was infected and I didn't even bottle it. With that first batch though, I brewed it in the winter and it fermented in a freezing basement studio. I also left it in primary for 3 weeks. I racked to secondary as per the instructions but was careful about aeration. I got busy and it was in secondary for like another month. As the more experienced guys said, patience is key. If yoou're impatient like me, make yourself too busy to bottle.

One thing I have learned is that although you may thing the temp is 70 degrees, the fermentation produces heat in the bucket so the temp is probably higher than you think during those first few days when the airlock is going off like crazy.

I use rum because that's what I have, but yea, makes sense to use alcohol instead of water.

I just upgraded from the Stype airlock to whatever this new one is called. Seems to have way less chance of letting air and liquid back in.

I am learning from the guys on here that there is no need for secondary so that's what I am doing with these next batches, leaving it in primary for 3 weeks to a month and then bottling it.

Good luck!

Another extract beginner here. There seems to have been a fairly recent change of what should and shouldn't be common practice. If you've read Papasian and or Palmer's how to books, they both promote going to secondary after a week.
The instructions that came with my home brew kit say to do it, the videos and instructional PDF's from Northern Brewer say to do it. Heck, most of the HBT community said to do it up until a couple years ago.
From what I've been reading, it makes makes more sense not to, unless you've added a ton of organic solids such as fruit purees. I think the recent shift in practice just hasn't caught up to the mainstream publications yet.

The only reason there would be any concern about letting the beer sit in primary for an extended period of time (2 or 3 weeks) is if you add fruit puree, or have a significant amount of yeast in the beer for fermenting.

Leaving the beer atop a large yeast cake in primary fermentation for several weeks can cause some off flavors but as mentioned, with your first few batches, you are much better served forgetting all about the secondary phase and just leaving the beer in primary for several weeks. As for "rancid beer", the first thing that pops into my head when I read that is sanitizing. Every bad beer I've ever made can be traced back to poor sanitizing or introduction of wild bacteria during racking. And when you get some nasty bacteria in the beer, you know it immediately. It's pretty much undrinkable.

Hamsterbite said:

If you've read Papasian and or Palmer's how to books, they both promote going to secondary after a week.

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They have reversed their stance...Palmer at least.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

MuddyCreek said:

Leaving the beer atop a large yeast cake in primary fermentation for several weeks can cause some off flavors...

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What flavors would those be?

Boil a Cooper's all extract kit ???
OG was high on both batches?? Did you follow the directions ? Most kits (all extract and partial grains) should be at or close to the stated OG if you are using the right amounts.

With Cooper's all you do is heat a few liters of water and dissolve the liquids and solids than dump into the fermenter with the right amount of chilled water, pitch the yeast and wait for it to reach the FG.

bosco

MuddyCreek said:

Leaving the beer atop a large yeast cake in primary fermentation for several weeks can cause some off flavors

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This has been shown time and again to be bad information, based on old assumptions. This mostly goes back to the online edition of How to Brew, which John Palmer himself has gone back repeatedly and refuted due to the dramatically improved quality of the yeast strains available to homebrewers today, compared to those when he first wrote that online edition!

As to the OP - she mentioned fruity, wine-like flavors in the beer. Would you possibly liken them to sherry? That's a common off flavor attributed to oxidation - I'm dealing with that right now in one of my stouts...

Kingfish said:

They have reversed their stance...Palmer at least.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

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Yep. Took me a few brews (as a new guy) to figure that out. I heard a discussion on the BN. No biggie, part of the learning curve. I'm sure I'll run into more things like that.

I think you have to go into this with the mindset that you will make some mistakes, and you're doing it for fun...that's a part of Papasian teaching that will always hold true.
I am one that can easily get mired down in analysis paralysis, so I'm grateful for the advice to just jump in and don't stress. For me, it's a hobby. I suppose it's easy after your first moderately succesful batch to think you could be the next hot craft brewer. I have no such delusions...at least not yet!

mikemet said:

also what is the purpose of racking into a secondary. Its best to let that thing sit in the primary for at least 3 weeks (your first few beers IMO at least) so you get the process down of PATIENCE! Never a rush.

Unless you need to rack a beer on POUNDS OF FRUIT or something like that- relax! No need to worry-

If you need your primary to make more beer- and therefore wanted to rack in a secondary - get this- BUY A NEW FERMENTER BUCKET! YAY! Well- thats a good suggestion- or even another carboy-

And use that "secondary- haha" as a primary -something else- like Apfelwein. Yea you will like that idea down the line.

Click to expand...

I would suggest a good brew book, I like Palmers How to brew.

Next: I would start cleaning with Oxyclean and sanitizing with StarSan (It kills everything).

CLEAN with cold water and RINSE and SANITIZE with hot water.... this makes sure that you get all the "Cleaner" out...

To simplfy your brewing and to get a good batch I would brew everything in a bucket (try a Pale Ale recipe), skip moving the beer to a Secondary, and leave it for four weeks in the bucket and then bottle. I don't even use a bottleing bucket... add priming sugar to the bucket, stir slowly, wait 10-15 minutes and bottle.

Your seal/airlock is not as important as you think unless you are brewing in a very dirty place...

Yes there are "beasties" in the air but it is a tough route for them to travel to get in your beer especally since you have just sanitized it.

I do not think this is the issue. I brew with a bucket that is not 100% airtight... It bubbles through the airlock when it is really going but as the pressure lowers it just seeps out "somewhere". BUT it is covered and I never have had a problem... ( I just keep it a consant temp, in place where the air is not moving a lot... I have even covered it with a damp StarSan towel and left it there to dry and remain in place.

See if you can "chill" your batch faster : You can boil water the day before (don't areate it), put it in ziplock bags, and when the temp get down under 140 put it in...

Check you faucet,,, I have found gunk in mine that I had to Oxyclean out... also sanitize this before bottling...

BUT: I just think it is a handling issue,,, I think you Airlock is fine and maybe your bucket is infected so replace it....

Double check the dates on your Extract... it might not be you...

Just one word of caution with Oxyclean and other oxygen based cleansers like PBW...If you brew with an aluminum kettle, expect oxidation issues.

There are some sources out there that will tell you this is the end of the world, but just as many (like the example below) levelheaded takes as to what the effect on your beer/equipment is. I'm not clear if this is something that's up for debate or what, so I just decided not to use oxy cleaners on my aluminum kettle just in case. Brewing/cooking with aluminum is a controversial subject as it is, but I know a lot of beginners (like myself) start off with the turkey fryer setup.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/oxiclean-aluminum-black-252770/

I've had issues with kind of a heavy alc. flavor which I associate with leaving the beer in primary too long. I have also had some beer come out particularly bitter tasting. I suppose this may be caused by something other than extended time on the trub but I personally feel better about racking to secondary after a week or so.

MuddyCreek said:

I've had issues with kind of a heavy alc. flavor which I associate with leaving the beer in primary too long. I have also had some beer come out particularly bitter tasting. I suppose this may be caused by something other than extended time on the trub but I personally feel better about racking to secondary after a week or so.

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Heavy alcohol flavor would be caused by fermenting at too high of a temperature. Bitter could be astringency caused by tannin extraction from boiling grains, mashing for too long or at the wrong temp, not allowing beer to age, etc. Neither of these could possibly be Autolysis related. I would investigate the real cause of flaws in your beers instead of trying to blame the boogie man that is leaving beer in primary.

But it seems you are convinced that you must secondary so for you, you may be right.

As you are convinced that the secondary is not necessary. I respect your opinion. In the end if the beer turns out well, we're all happy.

MuddyCreek said:

As you are convinced that the secondary is not necessary. I respect your opinion. In the end if the beer turns out well, we're all happy.

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Not at all. I believe there are well established uses for a "secondary". I would never think of lagering on a thick cake, nor would I age an old ale for many months without transferring it. Big fruit additions would need to be transferred as well. A multi stage dry hop gets transferred also.

The point is that for an ordinary ale there is absolutely no benefit to transferring beer and there are some significant disadvantages.

Thanks for all of the feedback! I'm convinced that I should move to just a primary fermentation for simplification until I can consistently make good beer. Since my brew kit came with both a bucket and a glass carboy I decided to jump in head first. I think I'll also drop the temp a bit to see if that helps.
Stratslinger: Sherry is a good description. One of my biggest hiccups has been the transfer. Seems like I've managed to get air pockets, or lose siphon all together at some point in the process for both batches.
DPBISME: I didn't think about the faucet. I live in a rental... so it's likely pretty grimy under the faucet head. Also, my bucket has a bottling spigot on it, if I use this for primary as you suggest (to avoid having to transfer), any good tips on how to sanitize the spigot before bottling? Or should I just use an auto siphon?
There's been so many posts on how hard it is to make BAD beer. It's comforting to know there's a few beginners here that have shared in my misery!
Thanks again for the help! I'm brewing this weekend, so in over a month I should know if the fixes worked

STARSAN all the way, ditch the iodine. Makes life a lot easier and your mind way more at easy when you eliminate the rinsing step and dont have to fool with the iodine.

I don't know it sounds to me like possible oxidation possibly true infection. Oxidation is often described as sherry like aka wine like and admittedly your husband blew back into the beer trying to create a siphon and caused turbulence and oxygen to mix. This also brings up a very big concern as te human mouth is a cess pool. Acetobacter is your bigger concern though that off taste would be more vinegar like. Lastly you really really need to put liquid in the airlock just don't use kool-aid. as far as tranfering into a secondary it probably is not needed unless dry hopping or adding fruit but you can still use a secondary to help aid in clearing the beer ( this is where the term brite tank comes from ) I recomend getting more basic practices down first though. Hope something in this helped.

I tend to find that slow oxidation from extended aging gets the sherry character, where my beers that have been unintentionally and excessively oxidized get the cardboard taste. That's my experience at least. I'm leaning towards infection in this case. However, oxidation + acetobacter means vinegar pretty quickly, so that's a possibility as well.

Status Update: SUCCESS!!! I brewed a brown porter, simplifying the steps as suggested (no secondary, etc.) AND put water in my airlock... and VOILA! Good beer Thanks for all of the responses on here. They were a huge help!!

cycling8r said:

Status Update: SUCCESS!!! I brewed a brown porter, simplifying the steps as suggested (no secondary, etc.) AND put water in my airlock... and VOILA! Good beer Thanks for all of the responses on here. They were a huge help!!

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Right on!

As 31Fifty mentioned a few posts back, I have also made the switch from Iodophor to Starsan after I got an infected APA batch.
I found myself grasping at straws to figure out the source of this infection, so I'm not saying I know for sure it had anything to do with Iodophor, but here's why I think it might have:

With my clear vinyl transfer tubing, I had been soaking it in warm PBW overnight, and then soaking it in an iodophor solution after that. Then I'd drip dry, and wrap it up in aluminum foil. Whenever I needed to use it again, I'd give it another dip in iodophor. (2min contact time minimum)
The problem is, on a couple of occasions I left it soaking in the iodophor too long...once for about 24 hours. Well, the iodine will stain clear vinyl brown/red when left in too long. That didn't seem like a big deal, but upon closer inspection, that tubing had to be chucked as it had devoloped a scaly coating inside that could not easily be removed. I'm sure that was a breeding ground for god knows what.
I suppose if you wanted to take the time with a line brush you could do it, but it's not worth the time IMO.

If you mess up and leave something sitting in Starsan too long, no harm done. Unless of course it's something metal...that can be a different story.

Really no secondary? How long in primary? Throughout talks with local brewers at the LHBS, the veterans anyways, they say to always use a secondary. Yeasts need to eat something and of there is no more sugar, they'll eat each other and produce off flavors. Also the hops decompose and what does decomposing plant matter do? It gets funky.

Just some thoughts that seem to make a ton of sense.

Yes sir. Check this out... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

There are many other threads like it.

31FIFTY said:

Really no secondary? How long in primary? Throughout talks with local brewers at the LHBS, the veterans anyways, they say to always use a secondary. Yeasts need to eat something and of there is no more sugar, they'll eat each other and produce off flavors. Also the hops decompose and what does decomposing plant matter do? It gets funky.

Just some thoughts that seem to make a ton of sense.

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I think we've got our threads crossed though. Is it possible you were tying to response d to this thread? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/what-should-i-do-next-other-questions-newbie-362230/

31FIFTY said:

Really no secondary? How long in primary? Throughout talks with local brewers at the LHBS, the veterans anyways, they say to always use a secondary. Yeasts need to eat something and of there is no more sugar, they'll eat each other and produce off flavors. Also the hops decompose and what does decomposing plant matter do? It gets funky.

Just some thoughts that seem to make a ton of sense.

Click to expand...

Have you ever tried not using a secondary?

Hamsterbite said:

Right on!

With my clear vinyl transfer tubing, I had been soaking it in warm PBW overnight, and then soaking it in an iodophor solution after that. Then I'd drip dry, and wrap it up in aluminum foil. Whenever I needed to use it again, I'd give it another dip in iodophor. (2min contact time minimum)
The problem is, on a couple of occasions I left it soaking in the iodophor too long...once for about 24 hours. Well, the iodine will stain clear vinyl brown/red when left in too long. That didn't seem like a big deal, but upon closer inspection, that tubing had to be chucked as it had devoloped a scaly coating inside that could not easily be removed. I'm sure that was a breeding ground for god knows what.
I suppose if you wanted to take the time with a line brush you could do it, but it's not worth the time IMO.

If you mess up and leave something sitting in Starsan too long, no harm done. Unless of course it's something metal...that can be a different story.

Click to expand...

Since I've been worried about cross-contamination, I've used new tubing with all three batches. Got to looking at my tubing from the last batch, though, and it does look like there's some sort of film/residue left on the tubing. Hopefully it will clean up. Just another reason to switch to starsan once I finish my current bottle of iodophor. Thanks for info!

31FIFTY said:

Really no secondary? How long in primary? Throughout talks with local brewers at the LHBS, the veterans anyways, they say to always use a secondary. Yeasts need to eat something and of there is no more sugar, they'll eat each other and produce off flavors. Also the hops decompose and what does decomposing plant matter do? It gets funky.

Just some thoughts that seem to make a ton of sense.

Click to expand...

It sat in primary for a little more than 3 weeks. I couldn't taste any noticeable off flavors (especially compared to my last two batches!!!) :cross: Even brought a bottle to my LBHS (some of them swear by doing only primary) and they gave it two thumbs up. With regards to the hops, I would imagine that would be much more important for hoppy beers like Pale Ales or IPAs.

Congrats on your success! Not to pile onto the 'primary vs. secondary' debate but I have never had off flavors and I don't use secondaries. In fact leaving it in primary allows it to work out some funkiness. It doesn't add to it. And doing a secondary is just another chance to expose your beer to oxygen. My biggest improvements have come from controlling ferment temps, checking out my water chemistry and filtering to remove chlorine, and rapid wort cooling to trap in hop flavors. My biggest improvement to the workflow was getting into kegging, but it takes some $$ to go down that rabbit hole...

Actually, my biggest improvement was probably joining this site and getting tons of input, ideas and inspiration. Cheers!

31FIFTY said:

Really no secondary? How long in primary? Throughout talks with local brewers at the LHBS, the veterans anyways, they say to always use a secondary. Yeasts need to eat something and of there is no more sugar, they'll eat each other and produce off flavors. Also the hops decompose and what does decomposing plant matter do? It gets funky.

Just some thoughts that seem to make a ton of sense.

Click to expand...

I just cracked open a bottle of a batch of Brown that was 27 days in primary. In fact it was "no chill" and I just dumped the entire boil kettle into the bucket and let it slowly cool. Turned out amazing.