Another Batch Sparge Q..

About 5 or 6 brews ago, i decided to start sparging with 185* water, I was searching for better efficiency(which I got). I double batch sparge with equal amounts, but I heat my second sparge to 185* as well. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm getting tannin extraction. My last few batches have all had a less than desirable off taste to them, that I can't quite explain.

I never check the temp of my grainbed during sparging, but I will from now on. From everything I've read so far, If I mash at 155* and add my 1st batch sparge of 1.75 gallons at 185* that should get me to about 165-168*. I drain that off and add my 2nd batch sparge of 1.75 gallons at 185*, will that put me at 175-178* or even higher? Is that hot enough for tannin extraction?

Yes..

The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer.

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Getting the Wort Out (Lautering)

You're stirring REALLY good after you add your sparge water, right?

185F is an approximation. I'd rely on some software to be a little more precise. If you mash at 155F, it's more likely that 180F is a better sparge target. At the very least, it gives you a little more piece of mind.

Lil' Sparky said:

You're stirring REALLY good after you add your sparge water, right?

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yeah, I stir the hell out of it.

Yes..

The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer.

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Getting the Wort Out (Lautering)
Today 12:05 AM

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This is how I used to do it, but he seems to contradict himself in that section of the book. Janzik's thread touches on that, Thanks for the link BTW

185F is an approximation. I'd rely on some software to be a little more precise. If you mash at 155F, it's more likely that 180F is a better sparge target. At the very least, it gives you a little more piece of mind.

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I suppose I should look into beersmith or some program, or at least learn the math. I think from now on I will do my first sparge with 180* water and then my second sparge with 170* and pay close attention to the temp of the grainbed.

Hopefully these off flavors in my last couple of batches will go away in time, and this change in my process will get my future brews where they need to be.

As always thanks for the help, I see great brews in my future.

If you do overshoot your temp just add ice to adjust it. That's a lot easier than raising the temp., in a cooler anyway. Works for me....

Mustangj said:

Yes..

The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer.

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Getting the Wort Out (Lautering)

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It's the grain temp, not the water temp, that matters. And pH is far more crucial to avoiding tannins than temp. The OP didn't even say he knew he had excessive tannins....just a less than desirable off taste. That could be a lot of things.

Denny said:

It's the grain temp, not the water temp, that matters. And pH is far more crucial to avoiding tannins than temp. The OP didn't even say he knew he had excessive tannins....just a less than desirable off taste. That could be a lot of things.

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yeah, this is one of many things that could be wrong in my process. I have made a lot of changes over the last couple months, mostly new equipment. I just know that my last couple of brews have really sucked. But according to my brewing records, the sucky brews seem to coincide with switching to hotter sparge temps.

I will also add taking a pH reading of both sparges to my routine. All I have is strips, but it will get me in the ballpark.

But "suck" in what way? You've got to be able to define the problem in order to solve it.

Denny said:

But "suck" in what way? You've got to be able to define the problem in order to solve it.

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That's another part of the problem, I have a hard time explaining the flavors, but here it goes..

I had one Pale Ale that started out tasting a little soapy, two weeks later it tasted like Solvent and just about made me yack.

This latest batch is a Brown ale that has the same kind of Soapy taste to start then goes to kind of a band aid/medicinal aftertaste.

At first I thought it was bad yeast, but both of these batches used a different yeast. Then, I thought maybe it was my Secondaries, I bought two 5 gallon buckets from Tractor Supply, I thought they might not be food grade. I have since talked to the company that makes them and found that they are food grade. I thought maybe my Primary had some infection in it, We'll see how the next batch comes out. I could very well have an issue with Cleaning/Sanitation.

The common things between those two batches are that they are the first two batches I used sparge water at 185*, I used Cascade from the same lot on both batches, and another I just realized is that, these are the first two batches that I used my new MLT, an Igloo 38qt cooler with wheels, the "Wheelie Cool". I've done 5 batches with it so far.

Yankeehillbrewer said:

That's another part of the problem, I have a hard time explaining the flavors, but here it goes..

I had one Pale Ale that started out tasting a little soapy, two weeks later it tasted like Solvent and just about made me yack.

This latest batch is a Brown ale that has the same kind of Soapy taste to start then goes to kind of a band aid/medicinal aftertaste.

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Solvent/medicinal/band aid make me think of chlorine or chloramines in the water.

Has your water supply changed?

It really doesn't sound like tannins at all. Tannin extraction is astringent. Puckery, like sucking on a used tea bag. It's harsh.

YooperBrew said:

Solvent/medicinal/band aid make me think of chlorine or chloramines in the water.

Has your water supply changed?

It really doesn't sound like tannins at all. Tannin extraction is astringent. Puckery, like sucking on a used tea bag. It's harsh.

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Same water source, I'm on a well out here in the boonies. I've not noticed any flavor changes in our tap water. Not that that means anything. I've never had it tested though, I do know that it's pretty soft.

Well, whatever it is, it's not astringency. Do you by any chance use bleach to sanitize? Otherwise, I'd have to go with the infection theory.

Denny said:

Well, whatever it is, it's not astringency. Do you by any chance use bleach to sanitize? Otherwise, I'd have to go with the infection theory.

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No, I quit using bleach a few months ago, and switched to Iodophor.

Now that you mention it, I did start using a new bottling method. I used to soak all my bottles over night in a bleach solution. Then I would just rinse them out with hot tap water and bottle. Now I mix up some iodophor(1 TBSP in about 4 gallons or so, in my bottling bucket) dunk each bottle in that, allowing it to fill up, I dump it out and place it on a sanitized dishwasher rack. Once I 'm done with that, I go right to bottling. Prior to storing all my bottles, I rinse them out 3-4 times with hot tap water, about 135*, air dry and put them away. Then come bottling time I just take them out and go through the process I explained. I don't think there is any issue here, I know lot's of folks on here follow something similar, using a vinator.

By "out in the boonies" do you mean you're not on city water? If you're using city water and not doing anything to remove the chlorine or chloramine, that could be the source of your off taste.

Cheers

Joe Camel said:

By "out in the boonies" do you mean you're not on city water? If you're using city water and not doing anything to remove the chlorine or chloramine, that could be the source of your off taste.

Cheers

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Yeah, we're on our own well. We live live about 25 miles from town.

Do you detect any of these off flavors before bottling?

Sounds like experiment time!!!

Bottle half of your next batch using the old method and half with the new method.

I've been doing some more reading around here, and I think it's time for an overhaul of my brewing equipment. I'm going to replace my fermenters with SS pots, scrap all my tubing, and bleach bomb anything else that needs it. and I'm really gonna tighten up my cleaning & sanitation practices. I think I've tried to cut too many corners and it's biting me in the A$$. I guess this is my wake up call.

As I read down this thread it didn't sound like a tannin extraction problem since batch-sparging isn't affected as much by going over 170 like it is with fly-sparging.

Soapy could be several things and fatty trub might be the culprit. Solvent makes me think it got too warm at a critical point. Medicinal... Chlorine.

Revisit the basics- you might have gotten too easy with the process and lapsed into a practice(s) that is affecting your brews.

radtek said:

As I read down this thread it didn't sound like a tannin extraction problem since batch-sparging isn't affected as much by going over 170 like it is with fly-sparging.

Soapy could be several things and fatty trub might be the culprit. Solvent makes me think it got too warm at a critical point. Medicinal... Chlorine.

Revisit the basics- you might have gotten too easy with the process and lapsed into a practice(s) that is affecting your brews.

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That's exactly what I'm thinking. I've gotten so wrapped up in new equipment lately, I think i've gotten away from some fundamentals.

Thanks to all for the help