Making Traditional rice Wine. Cheap, Fun, and Different

That's funny, earlier in my career, I worked in a call center and we had a QA department that would dock you for crazy ****. Saying bye-bye at the end of a call...I don't miss those days at all.

I know what you mean by names and titles. But I don't really get too caught up in "Proper" names. I had one person correct me when I referred to Joes Quick Grape Mead and they said "actually it's a pyment!" in a really condescending and stuck up tone. I quickly responded with "I'd like to call you rude when you interrupted my conversation but actually you're a pompous as$h@le!"

Anyway, I'm really looking for ideas on what to combine and I figured it would be easier to do an internet search if I knew the name or title.

jak1010 said:

That's funny, earlier in my career, I worked in a call center and we had a QA department that would dock you for crazy ****. Saying bye-bye at the end of a call...I don't miss those days at all.

I know what you mean by names and titles. But I don't really get too caught up in "Proper" names. I had one person correct me when I referred to Joes Quick Grape Mead and they said "actually it's a pyment!" in a really condescending and stuck up tone. I quickly responded with "I'd like to call you rude when you interrupted my conversation but actually you're a pompous as$h@le!"

Anyway, I'm really looking for ideas on what to combine and I figured it would be easier to do an internet search if I knew the name or title.

Click to expand...

Haha! Yeah, the biggest load of dingo's kidneys was stuff like making typos in account notes. Uh, nobody but us ever sees those....

I've been thinking vaguely of trying some banana wine with rice yeast balls. Peel and cook the bananas. Let them cool, then pitch crushed rice yeast balls or ARL instead of the typical straight up yeast. I'm thinking that you wouldn't have to wait for the bananas to get overripe that way. Plus I'd bet it tastes different.

bigger breast, haha, I have no ideal, have no direct experience.

From what I know is glutinous rice wine is believed able to replenish (effectively) the loss blood during the baby delivery, increase blood circulation and prevent getting sick during the critical first 30 days of recovery (after giving birth).

The methods discussed over here is actually what the Chinese do also. What surprise me more is you can even get the ingredients like rices, rice ball (Southern Chinese call wine biscuit) from US! unbelievable. rest assured, the rice ball, it is the same.

To add water or not, actually even among the Chinese, some do and some don't, depending on preference. But both seem to agree in one thing, only cooked water is added.

dgr said:

It sounds like pasteurizing to kill all microbes.


This is what I have been using and it makes some outstanding rice wine. I think I'll have to hide some from myself and see how it ages.


I did find a Chinese site that claimed it made women's breasts bigger. It really is a great drink.

If you can share, how is the fermenting done? As you've read, most on here have been cooking the rice, cooling it and mixing in the powdered yeast. But I and others have found references to adding water to the mixture. Do you have any information on that?

Click to expand...

Yes, one of my co-workers is from China. He also stated that only pregnant women and new mothers drink the stuff we brew. I don't care who drinks it over in China... we here in America do whatever the hell we want.

there are few types of yeast and basically in 2 distinct types, (a) sweet and (b) dry. From what I read so far, rice ball used here seem to belong to the former.

Please mention if there are other type of rice ball or wine biscuit. If they are Chinese, Sweet is called 'Tian Jiu Bing' and the dry: 'La Jiu Bing'.

my favorite ratio: 1kg dry rice with 1 dry ball + 2 sweet ball

Good luck!

I have two types of Chinese yeast. One is squares and the English is suzhou mifeng tianjiuyao. I suspect that makes them sweet yeast. Unfortunately the round balls I have don't have any English on them. There is also Angel Rice Leaven which is a powder and Vietnamese yeast balls that people have used.

OK, I'm looking to make a rice wine mead combo.

I'm thinking:
6 cups dry rice cooked and cooled.
1/2 pound of honey
8-10oz of water to mix the honey (taken from the pot of water used to cook the rice)
10-15 raisins (they're in JAOM and why not here)
1/2 pack of ARL or 3-4 yeast balls

Place all in a gallon glass jar with cheesecloth and lid for 21-28 days.

I'm looking for feedback before I start this. Should I change anything? Add or remove any of the ingredients?

jak1010 said:

OK, I'm looking to make a rice wine mead combo.

I'm thinking:
6 cups dry rice cooked and cooled.
1/2 pound of honey
8-10oz of water to mix the honey (taken from the pot of water used to cook the rice)
10-15 raisins (they're in JAOM and why not here)
1/2 pack of ARL or 3-4 yeast balls

Place all in a gallon glass jar with cheesecloth and lid for 21-28 days.

I'm looking for feedback before I start this. Should I change anything? Add or remove any of the ingredients?

Click to expand...

sounds interesting. If you do it, let us know how it works out.

jak1010 said:

OK, I'm looking to make a rice wine mead combo.


I'm looking for feedback before I start this. Should I change anything? Add or remove any of the ingredients?

Click to expand...

Honestly, as discussed, the rice alone is being made into more sugar than the yeast can eat. Adding even more sugar to the mix sounds like a sure fire way for a sickeningly sweet concoction.

jak1010 said:

OK, I'm looking to make a rice wine mead combo.

I'm thinking:
6 cups dry rice cooked and cooled.
1/2 pound of honey
8-10oz of water to mix the honey (taken from the pot of water used to cook the rice)
10-15 raisins (they're in JAOM and why not here)
1/2 pack of ARL or 3-4 yeast balls

Place all in a gallon glass jar with cheesecloth and lid for 21-28 days.

I'm looking for feedback before I start this. Should I change anything? Add or remove any of the ingredients?

Click to expand...

I would probably make them separately and then mix them. The timelines and ingredients are just so different between mead and rw (I make both) that I don't see it working. Still, you are more than welcome to give it a whirl!

Well, I think I just messed up big time. lol. I was going to go for it with my 12 cup batch of ryr that FINALLY finished up. I figured I had roughly 4 lbs of rice (A little more, but rounded up) I started with and was going to add the 1/3 water weight to it and see if it kicked back off. So in figuring 4 lbs of rice, for some reason I thought I needed 4 pounds of water (Mind went back to 12 cups.. 1/3 of 12 is 4, right? :smack So, I just dumped a half gallon of water into the batch. lol. OOPS. I guess I'll see what happens. Watery hooch anyone?


Yeah, I've been drinkin' a bit. Hush.

The timeline between the rice wine and the mead is the only thing that concerns me...what the heck. It's only about $5-$7 of materials and a few weeks of waiting and wondering.

I'll start this next weekend and see what happens.

jak1010 said:

OK, I'm looking to make a rice wine mead combo.

I'm thinking:
6 cups dry rice cooked and cooled.
1/2 pound of honey
8-10oz of water to mix the honey (taken from the pot of water used to cook the rice)
10-15 raisins (they're in JAOM and why not here)
1/2 pack of ARL or 3-4 yeast balls

Place all in a gallon glass jar with cheesecloth and lid for 21-28 days.

I'm looking for feedback before I start this. Should I change anything? Add or remove any of the ingredients?

Click to expand...

I tried this last month . Does not work that good . Something about the honey that stops the rice from converting to sugar definatly do seperat then mix later

Just snatched a photo. The left is dry yeast, a little yellowish (called 辣酒饼 La Jiu Bing or 浓酒饼 Nong Jiu Bing, diff names for the same thing) and the right is sweet yeast (甜酒饼 Tian Jiu Bing). I don't have the red yeast which can ferment maroon color wine.

The physical form like shape I think is not crucial, I often buy in different size and shape.

dgr said:

I have two types of Chinese yeast. One is squares and the English is suzhou mifeng tianjiuyao. I suspect that makes them sweet yeast. Unfortunately the round balls I have don't have any English on them. There is also Angel Rice Leaven which is a powder and Vietnamese yeast balls that people have used.

Click to expand...

Ok, here's the 3 week harvest check in for the ARL experiment.

Here's what went in them:
1. 0.5 grams ARL: Jar weight 802 grams
2. 1 gram ARL: Jar weight 785 grams
3. 2 grams ARL: Jar weight 784 grams
4. Rice yeast ball: Jar weight 682 grams

All of the batches yielded approximately the same amount of wine. Considering the appearance, that was a bit of a surprise. I am allowing some lee way for the rice yeast ball batch as that one was a little lite.

1. Aroma: Slight rice, no alcohol, vaguely of slightly soured milk. Flavor: Rice, very sweet, very smooth, nice warmth on the back of the throat. A little on the thick side.
2. Aroma: Slight rice, no alcohol. Flavor: Mild rice flavor, very sweet, very smooth, nice warmth on the back of the throat. For some odd reason this reminds me strongly of corn milk.
3. Aroma: Moderate alcohol, very very slight citrus. Flavor: Mild rice flavor, slightly tangy, very sweet, very smooth, nice warmth on the back of the throat. This also reminds me of corn milk.
4. Aroma: Moderate alcohol, slight rice, slight citrus. Flavor: Mild rice flavor, distinctly tangy, not as sweet as the other samples, not as much of an alcohol warmth as any of the ARL batches.

My opinion is that the manufacturer was correct in this instance. There was almost no difference between the 1 and 2 gram experiments. In future batches I will be using 1 gram of ARL:1.5 us cups of dry rice. The aroma and relatively high viscosity of the 0.5 gram batch says to me that is an under pitched batch.

The rice yeast balls clearly produce a much tangier rice wine. The ones I've got anyway. Both are quite nice, but I believe the ARL to be preferable if you intend to mix with something that doesn't have a lot of tang to it. The ARL batches should also take other savory flavors well, while the rice yeast ball wine would be, IMO, less compatible with those kinds of flavors.

durian,
You made me go take a picture. This is only the one that I have. Others have different round ones. I was hoping I could find the Kanji or Hanzi you posted on the package but I can't find La or Nong on there.

Thank you for providing a little insight into this delicious beverage.

Great post LG. I'm running the two yeasts I have available to me side by side right now. From my recollection, the square balls gave me a sweeter wine last batch but they were not fermented at the same time. I also may have 6 dry liters of rice fermenting too but darn if I can remember which yeast I used. That's OK, I can always make more and it's my roommates favorite type of alcohol ...



Free alcohol :rockin:

I'm planning on mixing the ARL batches from the experiment and bottling a couple with 1/2 a vanilla bean to a bottle. I ordered the beans a few days ago, and I should have some leftover after making the extract I want.

Really great to know that I've basically been using double the amount of ARL than I really need to. I can begin to scale it to what is needed. Thanks LG for an outstanding experiment and documentation to go along with it. In addition, your tasting notes are right on. I've been able to produce smooth, great tasting wine and now I'm looking forward to trying the vanilla bean idea.

If you decide to do further test batches, please share. I've got about 6 mason jars just begging me for tests. My next full scale gallon size batch will be ARL with Red Yeast Rice since the test batch worked out so well.

Yeah, it is not mentioned on the package. Mostly likely the yeast is sweet yeast.

The 'La' yeast can get high alcohol level, near 20%. So, the best way to know is the end result: the wine is 'dry' and not-sweet.

dgr said:

durian,
You made me go take a picture. This is only the one that I have. Others have different round ones. I was hoping I could find the Kanji or Hanzi you posted on the package but I can't find La or Nong on there.

Thank you for providing a little insight into this delicious beverage.

Click to expand...

durianpicker said:

Yeah, it is not mentioned on the package. Mostly likely the yeast is sweet yeast.

The 'La' yeast can get high alcohol level, near 20%. So, the best way to know is the end result: the wine is 'dry' and not-sweet.

Click to expand...

So what happens when the molds continue breaking down the starches into sugars after the 20% alc level has been reached? You can have the most powerful yeast on the market, but it can only stand alc levels to what it's designed. If there's sugars still left, you're going to get a sweet wine with a high level of alcohol. That's why you can have sweet meads even using champaign yeasts. Use more honey than the yeast can eat.

I believe what many are seeing here is very high alc content rice wine that is still very sweet. The yeast has reached it's max alcohol tolerance, but there's still lots of sugars left.

I was wondering the same thing.

Unless, the molds that break down the rice die off due to the alcohol %. Once that happens, the sugar volume should level off right?

So the question in my mind becomes, what is the alcohol tolerance of the mold?

jak1010 said:

I was wondering the same thing.

Unless, the molds that break down the rice die off due to the alcohol %. Once that happens, the sugar volume should level off right?

So the question in my mind becomes, what is the alcohol tolerance of the mold?

Click to expand...

A good question. Does the alcohol cause the mold to go dormant? Maybe the mold goes into high gear while the yeast is still idling on the line, and they stop together, but the mold made more sugar along the way?

Alcohol isn't really that good of a disinfectant, so my guess, just from seeing fairly regularly that all the rice has been converted to a mush ball, is that it laughs at 20% alcohol and keeps converting until there's no more starch to eat. Just my uneducated, slightly inebriated guess though..

jak1010 said:

Really great to know that I've basically been using double the amount of ARL than I really need to. I can begin to scale it to what is needed. Thanks LG for an outstanding experiment and documentation to go along with it. In addition, your tasting notes are right on. I've been able to produce smooth, great tasting wine and now I'm looking forward to trying the vanilla bean idea.

If you decide to do further test batches, please share. I've got about 6 mason jars just begging me for tests. My next full scale gallon size batch will be ARL with Red Yeast Rice since the test batch worked out so well.

Click to expand...

Oh, there shall definitely be more experiments. The initial one for the ARL ratio was just to establish an appropriate pitch rate for ARL. The next experiment I have planned is to do essentially a re-run of the grains experiment only with ARL. Though, I am planning on omitting both the wheat berries and the brown rice. Those were both abysmal failures.

jak1010 said:

I was wondering the same thing.

Unless, the molds that break down the rice die off due to the alcohol %. Once that happens, the sugar volume should level off right?

So the question in my mind becomes, what is the alcohol tolerance of the mold?

Click to expand...

trbig said:

A good question. Does the alcohol cause the mold to go dormant? Maybe the mold goes into high gear while the yeast is still idling on the line, and they stop together, but the mold made more sugar along the way?

Alcohol isn't really that good of a disinfectant, so my guess, just from seeing fairly regularly that all the rice has been converted to a mush ball, is that it laughs at 20% alcohol and keeps converting until there's no more starch to eat. Just my uneducated, slightly inebriated guess though..

Click to expand...

It should be possible to find out. I'll considering adding another experiment to my setup.

Basically, it would involve cooking the rice, letting it cool, Inoculating it, and then adding a 20% alcohol solution until you cover the rice. Granted, you will actually have a slightly lower alcohol solution as soon as the starch starts saccharification. Both from the sugar introduced and the water released from the rice. If the biological component of this process is unable to tolerate alcohol levels that high, very little conversion of the starch in the rice should occur. You should get some degree of conversion from leftover amylase enzyme present in your inoculation, but I doubt it would be significant.

I have data from other experiments that shows that the bug that is breaking down the starch is perfectly happy being submerged.

Like Everclear and water? 1 part everclear and 3 parts water?

jak1010 said:

Like Everclear and water? 1 part everclear and 3 parts water?

Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty much. That ratio would give you a solution of 22.5% alcohol. So it should simulate a finished rice wines high side for alcohol tolerance. If the alcohol is going to shut down the saccharification, it should do so immediately.

Leadgolem said:

Basically, it would involve cooking the rice, letting it cool, Inoculating it, and then adding a 20% alcohol solution until you cover the rice.

Click to expand...

Another way would be to innoculate different percentages of alcohol, then taking the alcohol and try to mash some rice with it and testing for conversion. It's easier to determine that there is no amylase activity as opposed to some, very little, more or less.

You should get some degree of conversion from leftover amylase enzyme present in your inoculation, but I doubt it would be significant.

Click to expand...

Why would you think that? When we make beer, we mash for an hour or so to get complete conversion. When we chew up our pasta, we do it for minutes. I suspect that the fungus produces amylase and there isn't anything in the fermenter that denatures the amylase so it just keeps converting the starch. But I really have no idea if this is actually what happens.

I have data from other experiments that shows that the bug that is breaking down the starch is perfectly happy being submerged.

Click to expand...

Was the bug submerged completely before it had a chance to produce amylase.

I was chewing (see what i did there?) on my theory and did a little searching but didn't get too far into it. The first is a graph on saliva amylase activity vs. temperature. Don't discount the source as a poster later in the thread points to a peer reviewed dental publication that has the same information.

From the graph, it appears that amylase is active at lower than mashing or body temperatures and is actually more active at room temperature than at body temperature.

The second link is one of those, how'd I stumble on that google freebies. It talks about denaturing stabilization tests on Aspergillus oryzae alpha-amylase. It's only the abstract but read the last two words first. It would appear that alpha-amylase gets denatured at some rate at the listed alcohol percentage.

So if the fungus produces amylase, I think that amylase hangs around and keeps on doing it's thing for a long time. Instead of giving it an hour to convert the starch, we are giving it days and days. But like I said, I don't know what is really happening there.


http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=61243.0
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1209773

dgr said:

Another way would be to innoculate different percentages of alcohol, then taking the alcohol and try to mash some rice with it and testing for conversion. It's easier to determine that there is no amylase activity as opposed to some, very little, more or less.

Click to expand...

That would work too. The point being to expose the biological components of the process to an 20%ish solution of alcohol immediately.

dgr said:

Why would you think that? When we make beer, we mash for an hour or so to get complete conversion. When we chew up our pasta, we do it for minutes. I suspect that the fungus produces amylase and there isn't anything in the fermenter that denatures the amylase so it just keeps converting the starch. But I really have no idea if this is actually what happens.

Click to expand...

I find it hard to believe that any process that propagates an organism that produces amylase would not have any residual amylase in it. Therefore, I would have to assume the presence of some amylase in the rice yeast balls and/or ARL. Some conversion would occur from that residual, but nothing like what would happen with an active biological process that continues to produce amylase.

dgr said:

Was the bug submerged completely before it had a chance to produce amylase.

Click to expand...

Yes. The batch was actually a cooked mass of somewhat soupy red rice wine. That batch used both rice yeast balls and RYR. From my own observations, I do not believe the RYR contributes much to the saccharification process. It seems to act more to inhibit acid producing bacterial growth and to add certain flavor and color compounds. In addition, in sake production, fairly substantial amounts of water are added during the process. The initial rice portion has been inoculated while merely damp, but I rather doubt that you would get so much conversion if the aspergillus oryzae was have issues with the amount of water.

dgr said:

I was chewing (see what i did there?) on my theory and did a little searching but didn't get too far into it. The first is a graph on saliva amylase activity vs. temperature. Don't discount the source as a poster later in the thread points to a peer reviewed dental publication that has the same information.

From the graph, it appears that amylase is active at lower than mashing or body temperatures and is actually more active at room temperature than at body temperature.

The second link is one of those, how'd I stumble on that google freebies. It talks about denaturing stabilization tests on Aspergillus oryzae alpha-amylase. It's only the abstract but read the last two words first. It would appear that alpha-amylase gets denatured at some rate at the listed alcohol percentage.

So if the fungus produces amylase, I think that amylase hangs around and keeps on doing it's thing for a long time. Instead of giving it an hour to convert the starch, we are giving it days and days. But like I said, I don't know what is really happening there.


http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=61243.0
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1209773

Click to expand...

That's a reasonable supposition. So, even if little to no saccharification is measured that may be due to the denaturing of the amylase. As opposed to the halting of a biological process.

Even with that possibility, I believe it's an experiment worth running.

I'm to tired to read those right now, I'll bookmark them for later.

I posted a new thread in the Sake forum named "Yeast Trouble". Responses are appreciated.

jak1010 said:

I posted a new thread in the Sake forum named "Yeast Trouble". Responses are appreciated.

Click to expand...

OK.. First, why are you in the sake forum asking rice wine questions? 2nd, why didn't you just post a link for lazy drunk people like me? lol.

I would be I the interested to see how the alcohol experiment goes. My biochem experience tells me that the ethanol will inhibit the activity of the yeast.

edds5p0 said:

I would be I the interested to see how the alcohol experiment goes. My biochem experience tells me that the ethanol will inhibit the activity of the yeast.

Click to expand...

We KNOW it will inhibit the yeast. That's not the question. Will it inhibit the mold from breaking down the rice starches into sugar? THAT is the question.

If everybody is that interested, I'll add it to the roster of experiments for this weekend.

dgr said:

http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=61243.0
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1209773

Click to expand...

Interesting links. I will admit that the second link is slightly confusing to me. It certainly implies that the stability of the amylase was increased. Using a stability rating relative to an 18% alcohol solution as a measurement of the stability. That certainly implies that alcohol tends to break down amylase.

However, the rest of the available information does not mention alcohol at all. Since it's specifically about aspergillus oryzae, and therefore probably about sake making, there simply may not have been a reason to do testing with higher alcohol concentrations.

Considering the general logic of the abstract, it seems odd that alcohol was mentioned at all. It seems out of place.

I'll also admit that my knowledge of chemistry is not adequate to the task of determining what an alcohol solution will do to the amylase.

All that being said, it still smells to me like an active biological process should still produce a significant degree of saccharification. While one inhibited by alcohol content should not. It would seem to me that if alcohol does denature amylase it probably doesn't do so immediately, especially if the other abstract is giving it a stability rating relative to an 18% alcohol solution. Therefore, if no amylase is being produced any residual will likely be denatured by the alcohol. That would leave rice that has only slightly converted. While, if amylase continues to be produced, saccharification should continue through the entire process.

Leadgolem said:

I find it hard to believe that any process that propagates an organism that produces amylase would not have any residual amylase in it. Therefore, I would have to assume the presence of some amylase in the rice yeast balls and/or ARL. Some conversion would occur from that residual, but nothing like what would happen with an active biological process that continues to produce amylase.

Click to expand...

Thank you for clarifying. I completely agree. There has to be some amylase in the yeast balls or ARL.

I think the first sentence in the abstract is missing a comma and should read, "... studied under the effect of heating, urea and some other denaturing agents." Then they list some tests and the denaturing agents, urea, heat and alcohol. As they were studying a percent change, I would surmise that the 18% number is a borderline amount.

I suspect the use of A oryzae amylase is that it is produced and purified in commercially available quantities. From what I could find, it's also cheap. Porcine amylase - $55 a mg 10 units/mg. A oryzae - $40 a gram 30 units/mg. So 3000 times cheaper?!?

I am unable to find any information on alcohol tolerance for amylase. There is some great stuff out there and this is a rabbit hole one could spend hours in. I found there appears to be more types of amylase than malts and some very technical studies of them. Who would have thought that spit would employ so many people?

Let us know how your experiments go. I may put together a couple of my own.

I'm in China and very interested in trying this. Mijiu (米&#37202 is a common semi-fermented breakfast porridge very similar to what you're doing here, but eaten rice and all after a couple days of fermentation so its alcohol content is minimal. While I haven't found yeast balls like this in stores here (nor have I looked much), Angel brand packaged mijiu yeast ("rice leaven" per the package) is readily available just about anywhere. Has anybody tried this for rice wine yet? Will it attenuate or is it likely to die before producing much alcohol? My other option is to get yeast balls online, but the shops all advertise them as mijiu yeast rather than wine yeast, so there's no real guarantee that they'll attenuate either.

I imagine that anything that will make Mijiu, will make rice wine. The only difference being time left to do it's work. And yes, the Angel Rice Leaven (ARL) apparently works just fine as well. Read back a few pages, and an experiment was just done on trying to figure out the best application rate for the ARL.

FatDragon said:

I'm in China and very interested in trying this. Mijiu (米&#37202 is a common semi-fermented breakfast porridge very similar to what you're doing here, but eaten rice and all after a couple days of fermentation so its alcohol content is minimal. While I haven't found yeast balls like this in stores here (nor have I looked much), Angel brand packaged mijiu yeast ("rice leaven" per the package) is readily available just about anywhere. Has anybody tried this for rice wine yet? Will it attenuate or is it likely to die before producing much alcohol? My other option is to get yeast balls online, but the shops all advertise them as mijiu yeast rather than wine yeast, so there's no real guarantee that they'll attenuate either.

Click to expand...

A lot of people here use Angel Rice Leaven for rice wine.

FatDragon, send a private message to durianpicker. He is in China. He posted some pictures of two different yeast balls he has used